Change the days for the York meet.

We don't want the public. We want members. Come on Scott. leave the meet just the way it is. Maybe all day Thursday.

@eddie g posted:

We don't want the public. We want members. Come on Scott. leave the meet just the way it is. Maybe all day Thursday.

Seriously - you really don’t want the public? How do you expect the TCA to grow, or even to continue? TCA is obviously withering, like the whole hobby. Very short sighted outlook.

ED has floated a few ideas about this. One being Thursday Friday, members only. Saturday Sunday anyone allowed in the Dealer halls. The decision is largely based on Eastern Division/TCA members not having to collect sales tax in the member halls.

Basically one TCA show followed by a second show with a different sponsor with separate agreement with the state.

Pete

Thursday was very light.  Friday was better.

I'm encouraged to hear that the EDTCA is considering options to make the meet better.

One must be prepared to make sacrifices for one's hobbies and extra-curricular activities.  For 37 years, in periods of self-employment, no employment, being laid-off, being retired, and Workin' for the Man, I have scheduled time off to attend the ED meet, because it's important to me.

If you can't figure out how to get one day off, twice a year, you need to re-evaluate your priorities, or switch to stamp collecting.  It's worked fine since 1955. Let's not try to find a solution to a non-problem.

And, I concur that we don't want the general public attending. We want members. And we need to go back to the two-signature rule, for security reasons.

I don't know. There are a lot of variables to this. I definitely feel that adding Sunday is a mistake. A 4 day event? I think 3 days is more than enough. I wholeheartedly want to the public to show up but of course I would prefer folks to join up and be members. I hope that by attending as public person they do eventually join up. However, it seems to me that ever since the public was allowed to enter the dealers halls not that many have showed up. I am just judging this by how many I have seen at York. Maybe there is more than I think but without real stats I don't know. It seems to me some people want York to be more like a Greenberg show. If so (and if the public starts showing up) than possibly extend the hours on Saturday? And add more things for families to see and do like Amhurst has. But after all is said and done this is a decision for the folks that are at a higher pay grade than me. Whatever happens I will continue to attend when I can.

"If you can't figure out how to get one day off, twice a year, you need to re-evaluate your priorities, or switch to stamp collecting.  It's worked fine since 1955. Let's not try to find a solution to a non-problem."

I very much agree with the above statement. Even when I had very little seniority at my job I was always able to get that Friday off when I could attend the meet. I live 3 hours away and I did it in a day trip so I guess for folks that live in further away it might be harder to get more days off but getting the one day off was never a problem for me. Attending the meet was always important to me although I did not attend every one but I tried to make one meet per year.

****Edit**** Just re-read Scott's initial post where he said to drop Thursday. I still think adding Sunday is a mistake. I go to car shows and even the car shows that are thriving are dead or at least very slow on Sunday.

@eddie g posted:

We don't want the public. We want members.

The haut monde !?!?...

Here we are!!!...

@Arthur P. Bloom posted: MY EDIT

If you can't figure out how to get one day off, twice a year, you need to re-evaluate your priorities, or switch to stamp collecting.  It's worked fine since 1955. Let's not try to find a solution to a non-problem.

For most of the world, excepting our first responders, Saturday and Sunday represent time off. In order allow the TCA to be more fully exposed to the general public, weekends just work better. Expecting some member of the public, with an interest in model railroading, at the edge of the hobby, to devote a weekday off, possibly using a paid vacation day or paid holiday, to attend this meet, is, unrealistic. Competing priorities come into focus.

@Arthur P. Bloom posted:

And, I concur that we don't want the general public attending. We want members. And we need to go back to the two-signature rule, for security reasons.

Arthur,

1.) You clearly have no problem with this wonderful thing we have dying.  How are we to get new members, to the hobby and then to the meet?

2.) What is this security problem you speak of?

Mike

Sorry, but I agree with Scott Smith.  The TCA and the Eastern Division DO need the public.  You're not going to get new members by hiding your light under a bushel.  It's 2023, not 1955.

Maybe the answer is to go to 2 FULL days or 2.5 days - Friday, Saturday, and Sunday morning.  Keep the division between the dealer & member halls to keep the taxman away.  Maybe make Saturday night the social event?  Maybe a buffet dinner and an auction for big ticket items on Saturday night?  I seem to recall that auctions were once part of the Eastern Division's program.  And the Keystone Division held auctions at its Lancaster Home & Garden meets in the early 2000's.

George

@Arthur P. Bloom posted:

One must be prepared to make sacrifices for one's hobbies and extra-curricular activities.  For 37 years, in periods of self-employment, no employment, being laid-off, being retired, and Workin' for the Man, I have scheduled time off to attend the ED meet, because it's important to me.

If you can't figure out how to get one day off, twice a year, you need to re-evaluate your priorities, or switch to stamp collecting.  It's worked fine since 1955. Let's not try to find a solution to a non-problem.

And, I concur that we don't want the general public attending. We want members. And we need to go back to the two-signature rule, for security reasons.

Respectfully, it's not 1955.

At 46 yrs old I am young for a tca member.  No, I can't always afford to take vacation days, employment in the power generation industry does not allow for that to happen.  There is little spare cash to go around due to literally everything costing more than it did just two years ago, so even the thought of going to York or any train show to buy something is given careful consideration as lots of other things need paid for before more toys.

it is often lamented that the fanbase of this hobby is dying out faster than it is being replaced.  There will not be a members only show for future generation if there are not enough members left to around to support it.  Just like a business, you have to keep generating new customers if you want to survive.

I agree with Scott.  And it’s not just days off from work that is the issue.  If we want to attract young modelers, we need Saturday to deconflict with school too.   I see no down side for our hobby to making the event as accessible as possible

I have been a TCA member since 2002. That is the year I started my business. Prior to that taking vacation time to go was not going to happen. My wife would have argued that spending valuable vacation time to 'go play train' would be selfish. Surprisingly I would agreement with her on this. Many companies require that vacation time has to be taken in one week increments. Many of our fellow TCA members are retired and have forgotten how it is in the real world.

Scott Smith

@scott.smith posted:

Many of our fellow TCA members are retired and have forgotten how it is in the real world.

We live in the real world too Scott, just not your world!   I see your point, and it's certainly a valid one.  It could be made into a weekend meet, Sat/Sun...

Back when the York Meet was open on just Friday and Saturday there were large crowds attending. When the Eastern Division added Thursday to put a hurting on the bandit meets the attendance was similar, just spread out over the three days. Even before Thursday was added, Saturday attendance was low.

Like Scott, I thought moving to Friday-Saturday or Sunday would draw more attendees. But there are issues with this. The TCA Eastern Division doesn’t run the world. They don’t operate in a vacuum.

One of the reasons that the Meet ends early on Saturday is because usually there is another event scheduled at the fairgrounds that evening and the buildings have to emptied in time for that event.  The ED books the fairgrounds for the entire week of the Meet. I don’t know if they can negotiate the extra Sunday for an acceptable cost.

Also, the vendors want to get on the road after the show. It has been discussed on this forum that the vendors and hobby shops that attend were strongly against staying on Sunday as they wanted to have the time to get back to their shop in time to open on Monday.

One issue I see is lack of advertising of the Meet. I noticed there was no banner advertising the Meet on the Hyland Ave. fence near the entrance like there was in previous years. Even that is not enough because the York, Pa. area is not large enough to attract the crowds they need, especially just a banner on a fence.  It’s probably not in their budget but more advertising is needed in a broader area. Right now it’s just word of mouth. That’s how I discovered the TCA.

These days all hobbies are experiencing downward membership and attendance as prices and inflation increase. These factors affect all of the TCA too. There is no one size fits all fix. Everyone has their own agenda and things they want to see happen. It has been suggested before that if you want things to change, run for office in the TCA or Eastern Division and be the change you want to see. The hobby and the TCA are not dying. As long as there are a few members, the TCA will still operate as intended. So if you want to see more crowds, all of us need to get up out of our chairs and spread the word about this great event and hobby!!

Why are we even discussing this topic?  We have no input as to when the meet is.  Go join the ED TCA and attend the meetings to make your opinions known.

Did anyone ever think that maybe all the volunteers of the ED TCA want Sunday off to recover as a day of rest?

As of last week the TCA had 312 new members YTD.  They have bigger concerns than pressuring the ED TCA to change the structure of the York meet.

-Greg

October 1st is the start of my busiest time of the year at work, so attending the fall meet is no longer an option for me. I am in a very seasonal business and taking time off between Oct. 1 and Dec. 7 would be foolish.  Only the spring meet is a possibility anymore.  Instead of the 3rd weekend in October, I want EDTCA to change the fall meet to be the 3rd weekend in September so I can go.

Ok.........enough sarcasm, but the point I'm trying to make here is that no matter what days the meet is held, EDTCA is never going to please everyone. The meet is twice a year. When I was a kid, my Dad used to take me out of school for a day to go to York, starting in 4th grade and right through high school. Yes, I missed some classes and extracurricular activities, but it all worked out. One day out of school every 6 months is probably not going to ruin a kid's academic future. As for time off of work, York was just about the only train meet my Dad could attend all year; he was a minister, and back then, most meets were on Sundays. He wasn't happy about it but accepted it for what it was. On the rare occasion that he had a Sunday off that coincided with a train meet within a reasonable drive, he was there.

There are logistics involved that we most likely don't know about, such as rental rates for the fairgrounds and fees for security guards, that may make the meet cost prohibitive if it is held over Saturday and Sunday.

Do we know how many new members the TCA has acquired as a result of public dealer halls?  Yes, York is a big event, but relying on it to grow membership is foolish in my opinion. Each one of us needs to promote TCA membership if it is to grow. There is more to membership than just going to York once or twice a year. Removing the "two signature" rule has, in my opinion, diminished the value of membership. Many other organizations have a vetting process for prospective members, and I see nothing wrong with that. Now that anyone can join, the TCA has become, like so many aspects of modern life, disposable, because anyone can join at any time.

Remember quite a few vendors/sellers travel back home Saturday afternoon and all day Sunday. One thing I would like to know is, how many members are buying registrations and how many people off the street coming in? Dave

I'll be there no matter which days it is BUT as @BlueComet400 and others have pointed out I suspect there is more to it than just changing the calendar.  I'm really not sure a day change will matter much.  I do think better advertising would help but I also don't know if it's the total solution.  Unfortunately I think the "public" are limited to the immediate areas around York, no more than an hour away.  Much further and I suspect the draw drops significantly. 

We can post to our hearts desire but ultimately it's up to the EDTCA and it's members to make any changes.  We can certainly discuss it and maybe they'll consider some of the points but again we have very little say in the matter.  So what can we do?  Promote the hobby.  I do believe the younger YouTube guys do a great job of promoting the hobby.  I also believe that Eddie is incorrect in saying they don't want the public.  If you gain some members from the public pool what harm does it do?  It's only helps. 

Again I'll go any day they make it but I do reserve vacation for York so it doesn't matter to me.  Your mileage may vary.  And again unless the EDTCA wants and are able to make any changes then we should ALL do our part to promote the hobby and the meet.  I do believe there is a lot more to it to make these changes that the EDTCA has no control over.  As someone stated "you can't please everyone".

Now I'll sit back and watch.  I believe this topic has been brought up and there were specific reasons for the days the meet is held.

@eddie g posted:

We don't want the public. We want members. Come on Scott. leave the meet just the way it is. Maybe all day Thursday.

What a crazy thing to say. At least you didn't insert any of your "facts" into the statement.

@Hudson J1e posted:

However, it seems to me that ever since the public was allowed to enter the dealers halls not that many have showed up. I am just judging this by how many I have seen at York. Maybe there is more than I think but without real stats I don't know.

Clem's Primer posted some of the (unofficial) stats regarding "the public" attendance over the years:

• Apr. 2017:  Abt. 600  (this was the first time "the public" was allowed into the dealer halls)
• Oct. 2017:  Abt. 400
• Apr. 2018:  389
• Oct. 2018:  418
• Apr. 2019:  332

This is about the attendance of a small one day fire hall show.  I wonder how many of them eventually joined, how many were just looking for something to entertain themselves, and how many were there to take advantage of the meet without being a TCA member?

I don't think opening up the whole meet to "the public" would do anything other than kill the meet or turn it into another small regional TCA meet that people more than an hour or two away wouldn't bother attending.  And how many people would drop their TCA memberships in a hot minute if they could "get the milk for free without buying the cow?"  I have talked about this subject with many table holders in the member halls since I joined their ranks, and the vast majority I talked with would stop coming if the member halls were opened to "the public."

For years, Greenberg held 2-day weekend train shows in what we refer to as Orange Hall (I don't know if they still do or not), yet from what I have heard from my train friends in the area, they only occupied half the hall.  Why didn't those shows get bigger?  Why didn't more dealers and manufacturers/importers come?  Why didn't more non-professional dealers come?  The Greenberg people I have known over the years have been pretty dedicated people who knew what they were doing, so it wasn't a matter of competence.  York grew because of the TCA as a whole, both the EDTCA people who do so much work to make York happen, and the TCA members who support the organization and the meet.  Yeah, I wish I didn't have to use so many vacation days to go to York, but I consider that, as well as my TCA dues, and the fees I pay to get into York a small price to pay for the fun I have there, and the friends I have made there.

Andy

ARTHUR, You are 100% correct.

MAGGI, I don't believe you are even a TCA member.

York is fine. You gloomer doomer guys always come out after every York and start bellyaching all over the place.

York is for chads!

@eddie g posted:

.

Eddie I'm not a young guy but a middle aged one.  I can understand your desire to keep things the same as you have known them.

I'm curious to know what you would do to attract newer and younger members to the TCA and the York meet if you were given the task?

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

York is fine. You gloomer doomer guys always come out after every York and start bellyaching all over the place.

York is for chads!

🤔 I see my horde of cabooses in that picture 🤣🤣

without allowing the public into our local meets the meet would be over at 11 am. I’m a regular table holder and most of my sales are by the public.

How many are aware that at 8:00 AM on Saturday of the York Meet, Eastern Division holds a meeting open to all TCA members where topics like this can be discussed??

Second, Eastern Division opening up the whole meet to the public is a non starter for the previously made point about sales tax. It would mean every buyer in every hall would have pay tax and every seller in every hall would have to collect it. Is that what those what say the meet should go public really want? I suspect about 80% of the member sellers would not even bother to show up if they had to go through all that red tape.

The dual meet idea solves both problems. TCA holds its meet in the member  halls. Some other entity holds its meet in the dealer halls. TCA meet can go how many days it wishes as does the other meet. They can overlap and if members want to keep selling on Sunday they can move to one of the dealer halls or go home on Saturday.

Pete

When I  go to local train shows, I tell people there that I talk too about the tca and try to sign them up. If you let the public in to York, they are not going to join. There just keep coming as public.

As mentioned TCA-ED's York meet is primarily a members' meet with special tax privileges in the member halls (member to member transactions).  That is why the member halls are off limits to the general public so taxes don't have to be collected.  And the meet is run by all volunteers whom, I believe, also have a life outside trains (except the bathroom attendants who work for tips and the food services).  Are Greenberg or other shows run by volunteers to the extent York is?

None of us has a crystal ball, but I agree that ED's York meet might someday return to a members only meet with no public or hobby vendors.  I think the volunteers would love to go back to two days.

Just got back from York and here's my observations:

1. York is the only true national meet in that it is designed to attract people from all over the United States and Canada.  Other shows like Amherst or Milwaukee Trainfest are local or regional shows.

2. "York" is actually Monday - Saturday.  Monday - Wednesday are the bandit meets; Thursday - Saturday is the official meet.  There's also unaffiliated dealers, like Strasburg Hobbies, Choo Choo Barn, and antique stores with train dealers.

3. Anybody going to York is likely to have the time and money to go whatever the days are.

To be continued. . .

Folks are always lamenting growing the hobby. My recommendation: Forget about putting the responsibility for future growth on the TCA or, even more unfairly, on the TCA Eastern Division. Those groups have heard it all before.

If you want to see the hobby grow, the very best way to do it is to do it yourself. If every member of our great hobby--including OGR Forum participants--would take it upon themselves to attract just ONE new participant to the hobby on an annual basis, the growth would be there. "Grow the hobby one person at a time" is something I have advocated for years, and I firmly believe that OGR magazine has helped to cultivate interest successfully, even though the magazine is no longer readily available at newsstands and large book retailers such as B&N and others.

When you have a visitor to your layout, or come across someone else in your circle of friends, colleagues, or acquaintances, who asks about your hobby, consider giving him or her one of your past issues of OGR. Perhaps--just perhaps--when they see a sampling of what this hobby offers, they may may enticed to jump in and give it a try. And they will know who to turn to if/when they have questions or need some advice.

York Observations, continued:

4. York will continue in its current format as long as there are volunteers and the meet produces net income.

5. 60% of model railroaders are HO scale.  15% are N scale.  25% are all other scales.

6. There is vary little at York for the HO or N scaler.

7. The HO and N scale markets have become more like the O scale market in that their products are limited production.  If you want an out of production item you have to go to the secondary market.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

York is fine. You gloomer doomer guys always come out after every York and start bellyaching all over the place.

York is for chads!

Norm - is that a Stacy in the fore ground?

@Allan Miller posted:

Folks are always lamenting growing the hobby. My recommendation: Forget about putting the responsibility for future growth on the TCA or, even more unfairly, on the TCA Eastern Division. Those groups have heard it all before.

If you want to see the hobby grow, the very best way to do it is to do it yourself. If every member of our great hobby--including OGR Forum participants--would take it upon themselves to attract just ONE new participant to the hobby on an annual basis, the growth would be there. "Grow the hobby one person at a time" is something I have advocated for years, and I firmly believe that OGR magazine has helped to cultivate interest successfully, even though the magazine is no longer readily available at newsstands and large book retailers such as B&N and others.

When you have a visitor to your layout, or come across someone else in your circle of friends, colleagues, or acquaintances, who asks about your hobby, consider giving him or her one of your past issues of OGR. Perhaps--just perhaps--when they see a sampling of what this hobby offers, they may may enticed to jump in and give it a try. And they will know who to turn to if/when they have questions or need some advice.

...And as a reminder...  With the loosening/elimination of draconian Covid protocols, the option of making publications...OGR and other hobby periodicals...available at locations such as hospital and professional office waiting rooms, school libraries, etc., to stir interest might become more available.

When those opportunities were withdrawn during the pandemic, I cringed when dumping past-date publications into recycling dumpsters.   Before I had regularly given boxes of those magazines to a gentleman retiree who served as a courtesy driver for the parking lot bus at our largest local hospital.  He would take them into the hospital and give them to the staff member responsible for maintaining the waiting area amenities.  During the holidays, especially, we'd have a few folks come to the LHS commenting on items they saw in those waiting room magazines for gifting family/friends.

Having retired from our LHS' staff 2+ years ago, my wife and I still visit them weekly to collect pop cans/bottles, old magazines/catalogs/event flyers, packing materials, etc., to either re-use elsewhere or recycle for monetary value then donated to our church's outreach efforts.  I'm seeing hopeful signs that waiting rooms in many establishments are once again providing reading material for clients.  One establishment has even offered to run short video tapes of general or hobby interest on their waiting room monitor, finding them more appealing than the contentious selection of a particular "news" network, or the daily 'soaps'.  I'm aware that they've had a few such videos generated by local clubs to stir up interest in their activities...and membership.

The exposure value of some things when given freely can be multiples of the same when purchased.

Just an additional thought to what Allan proffered...FWIW.

KD

Every York somebody throws out this thread.

Simply put, no thanks.

Like the days just the way they are.

@eddie g posted:

We don't want the public. We want members. Come on Scott. leave the meet just the way it is. Maybe all day Thursday.

You get members by getting the public in to see what it is all about

Your right JOHN, This happens every 6 months. Why don't you guys let the eastern division decide what they want.

NORTON, Are you sure the  8AM meeting is open to all TCA members? I thought it was open to just eastern division members.

Eastern Division TCA has done a great job having/running the York meet for years and I have confidence they will continue to do so in the future. The Thursday to Saturdays days should remain, no Sundays in my opinion, for reasons given in previous posts.  I have gone to York since 1990, taken days off, gone on Saturday and have enjoyed each meet. This discussion comes up every year about changing days, public attendance etc.    EDTCA runs the meet, will make any changes if needed to enhance the meet. Be supportive of the great job they do to allow all of us to to attend this meet.  They’ve tried to be open to the public, not sure that’s been met with much success in attendance, let alone getting new TCA members.       I think all of us TCA members that enjoy this meet should let EDTCA continue to run their meet without our complaints etc after each meet.      Obviously everyone can’t be pleased.  

Why is the public avoiding it?

Not enough publicity? Are they advertising? I don't know the answers to those questions.

I wonder if it is just the demographics......it's not in a major population area....just sort of close to many.....let's face it..... most of us are addicted and therefore, think nothing of the drive.....

60-90 minutes from Baltimore depending on where you live.

2 hrs from most areas in DC with another 30+ minutes depending on where in northern VA.

Usually 4 hours from Richmond if I-95 traffic is favorable.

Anywhere from 2-3 hours from the Philly Metro/South Jersey area.

At least 2 hours, maybe a little more from Allentown/Bethlehem.

Probably 3 hours from Scranton-Wilkes-Barrie

4-6 hours depending on where you live in the North Jersey, New York metro area, Long Island and Southern CT.

I would guess around 5 hours at least from Pittsburgh.

It's a long drive for people who can say, I'll just go to the next local show around here.....

Maybe our expectations for huge public attendance is misguided.....

....and, I had a great time this past week...thank you Eastern Division!

Peter

I must be doing something wrong…

I got to the Wyndham at 6:00 am Monday morning and left the fairgrounds 12:30 Saturday in my truck camper to head home.

In that time period I “urinated” though over 2200.00 dollars in purchases and had the time of my life… just like the previous 68 or so Yorks before this one !

no complaints here…

@eddie g posted:

Your right JOHN, This happens every 6 months. Why don't you guys let the eastern division decide what they want.

My request that EDTCA change the fall meet to September was not a complaint or in any way serious. I was trying to add a little levity to the discussion and make the point that no matter when the meet is scheduled, there will be TCA members who can go and those who cannot go for whatever reason. For me, it is simply bad timing. CPAs don't take time off during tax season, and insurance agents who represent Medicare plans don't take time off during Medicare Annual Enrollment, which happens to overlap with the fall meet. Back when Annual Enrollment started on November 15, going to York in October was not an issue, but now that it starts in October, taking time off for anything isn't going to happen. Heck, I don't even rake my own leaves on fall weekends. I now pay someone to do our fall cleanup as my weekends are better-spent "taking care of business."

@Arthur P. Bloom posted:

One must be prepared to make sacrifices for one's hobbies and extra-curricular activities.  For 37 years, in periods of self-employment, no employment, being laid-off, being retired, and Workin' for the Man, I have scheduled time off to attend the ED meet, because it's important to me.

If you can't figure out how to get one day off, twice a year, you need to re-evaluate your priorities, or switch to stamp collecting.  It's worked fine since 1955. Let's not try to find a solution to a non-problem.

And, I concur that we don't want the general public attending. We want members. And we need to go back to the two-signature rule, for security reasons.

Glad to hear someone else speaking up about using time off.  We Americans work more hours than every other first-world countries - too many of us are afraid to use the measly time off that we have EARNED, and some folks even leave vacation time on the table at the end of the year - why??  Like @Arthur P. Bloom, I've taken time off for York as an employee and while self-employed.  If one can't take a few days off a couple of times each year, a new job is in order - good employees are hard to find, and life is too short.  (Apologies to those whose jobs have seasonal busy times, but not many are busy in both April and October.)  And, as I've pointed out in other threads, York was very well-attended back when a larger percentage of attendees were of working age - take the d*** time off!

I think @Putnam Division made some excellent points regarding why York's location might not be conducive to attracting the public.  I'm open to a different schedule if it allows the meet to continue as a viable event.

Given the tax collection issue for the member halls, I'm not convinced that opening to the public will be the bonanza that some people think, but I also think that ED needs to be less provincial in their thinking about non-members.

It's amazing how many people chime in who are not TCA members.

@eddie g posted:

It's amazing how many people chime in who are not TCA members.

Hi Eddie, you make a good point. I am a TCA member and joined 10 or so years ago so I could go to York, which I did twice. Wondering if the Eastern Division or the TCA have done a member survey on improving the organization, and the York meet.  I think this would be an important step.

For me the whole experience was positive, starting with the team that helps with parking.  What a friendly, and welcoming group.  

@eddie g posted:

It's amazing how many people chime in who are not TCA members.

No disrespect but sometimes you need someone looking in from the outside, I was at one time, but other things have gotten in my way to spend money this way or that way.

@BlueComet400 posted:

"Given the tax collection issue for the member halls, I'm not convinced that opening to the public will be the bonanza that some people think, but I also think that ED needs to be less provincial in their thinking about non-members."

If the meet goes public, I predict there will be no going back once the commonwealth of PA gets its hands on the tax revenue.

I never meant for my comment to be that, as PA. would love to collect sales tax from that hall, I'm still for keeping that hall for members only,

@Allan Miller posted:

Folks are always lamenting growing the hobby. My recommendation: Forget about putting the responsibility for future growth on the TCA or, even more unfairly, on the TCA Eastern Division. Those groups have heard it all before.

If you want to see the hobby grow, the very best way to do it is to do it yourself. If every member of our great hobby--including OGR Forum participants--would take it upon themselves to attract just ONE new participant to the hobby on an annual basis, the growth would be there. "Grow the hobby one person at a time" is something I have advocated for years, and I firmly believe that OGR magazine has helped to cultivate interest successfully, even though the magazine is no longer readily available at newsstands and large book retailers such as B&N and others.

When you have a visitor to your layout, or come across someone else in your circle of friends, colleagues, or acquaintances, who asks about your hobby, consider giving him or her one of your past issues of OGR. Perhaps--just perhaps--when they see a sampling of what this hobby offers, they may may enticed to jump in and give it a try. And they will know who to turn to if/when they have questions or need some advice.

Alan, although I'm not a member of the TCA, I was at one time but not in the future for me because of other things, I have in the past 4 or 5 years donated Three completely new train set to a child with a note included on how great the TCA is and what they can do for you in items like research. It's my way of supporting.

I joined TCA 1996. York meet was always a very special event for members only and I wanted a piece of the action. So, becoming a member was my goal. I don’t feel that York is a train show. It’s a train meet for TCA members. There are plenty of other local shows that cater to the public. If York becomes a public event I can’t see how TCA  can expect to increase membership. It will no longer be a special meet that encourages membership to attend. We can invite a friend as a guest or simply promote the York meet as such. Keep York special. I prefer the two day meet of Friday and Saturday. No Sunday. This will keep the costs down for dealers and members with tables.

Every time this subject comes up, l wonder how many new members will develop out of the few who will make the drive to the fairgrounds from an hour's radius of York?  Already train fanatics will know about and heard about it.  When l was working, l would have loved the meet on Sunday, with one less day taken off.  Now, with aging and mostly retired membership?, will much be gained?

@Arthur P. Bloom posted:

One must be prepared to make sacrifices for one's hobbies and extra-curricular activities.  For 37 years, in periods of self-employment, no employment, being laid-off, being retired, and Workin' for the Man, I have scheduled time off to attend the ED meet, because it's important to me.

If you can't figure out how to get one day off, twice a year, you need to re-evaluate your priorities, or switch to stamp collecting.  It's worked fine since 1955. Let's not try to find a solution to a non-problem.

And, I concur that we don't want the general public attending. We want members. And we need to go back to the two-signature rule, for security reasons.

If your traveling from west of Indiana I'm guessing it is at least a 12 hour drive.  To do that without beating yourself up it is a two day trip. So now to attend Friday it is 3 vacation days.

@BobbyD posted:

If your traveling from west of Indiana I'm guessing it is at least a 12 hour drive.  To do that without beating yourself up it is a two day trip. So now to attend Friday it is 3 vacation days.

Two hours by plane to Baltimore and hour and a half drive to York. Take the three vacation days anyway. JUST DO IT !!

York is York, The Eastern Division is doing the best they can.  Want to change the date of the World Series, the Masters, the Super Bowl?  Do your best with what you have and what is offered.  John

@Arthur P. Bloom posted:

And we need to go back to the two-signature rule, for security reasons.

LOL.. Because we all know nothing ever was stolen from York when we all had to get two signatures. (Let's start with Lionel's original demonstrater Odyessy motor)

Really can you factually point to any recent problem that two signatures would have prevented?

There are no organized gangs of model train thieves who prey on TCA members. Most recent theft from train shops i know of are done by tweaker who hope to get twenty bucks to score some blues.  But are deeply disappointed to find no one will by what they steal.

As for the point of this topic, I'll be traveling from near  the Pacific coast of Oregon to York. I vote for more days. I'll use them

"too many of us are afraid to use the measly time off that we have EARNED, and some folks even leave vacation time on the table at the end of the year - why??"

Um... cause we're busy?

I get four weeks paid plus all the sick time I need... but I always end the year trying to figure where to jam in another week or two of vacation.

Jon

@KOOLjock1 posted:

"too many of us are afraid to use the measly time off that we have EARNED, and some folks even leave vacation time on the table at the end of the year - why??"

Um... cause we're busy?

I get four weeks paid plus all the sick time I need... but I always end the year trying to figure where to jam in another week or two of vacation.

Jon

I've learned to take advantage of all my vacation and PTO.  Back in the day I used to leave some on the table because we were "busy" and I get some folks have no choice but York is always 4 of my vacations days.  It becomes a benefit to the company when you don't take it unless they are willing to buy you out.   But enough of the non train talk, this is an "interesting" thread but Norm is right, it's almost as predictable as the sun coming up.

I'll close by saying many thanks to all of the EDTCA members and volunteers.  It must stink to work so hard and make sure everything goes as smooth as possible just to have a lot of folks complain about it.  I believe somebody pointed out that there is an meeting open to all TCA members to express your concerns.  Maybe use the EDTCA website to contact them might be the more direct approach.

It never hurts to bounce some ideas but in the end its up to the EDTCA and it's members.  See you in the fall and again thanks for a great April!

@Andy Hummell Thank you for posting those stats. Those are definitely higher numbers than I thought.

I wonder the same thing, just how many of the so called "public" are ex-TCA members who want to go to the dealers halls without paying any dues? I can only guess but I bet it is a high percentage. When I mentioned the public in my previous post I meant the public only in the way they TCA allows it now. I would NEVER in a million years advocate for the public being allowed to enter the entire show. It would kill the TCA. I have read many people on this very forum who said they would drop their TCA membership in a heart beat if York was open to the public.

@Traindiesel "These days all hobbies are experiencing downward membership and attendance as prices and inflation increase." I agree with this statement but I don't think it is only based upon price. I am in a car club called The Slant Six Club. Dues are $1.33 per month ( paid $16 per year). Let's face it anyone should be able to put aside $1.33 a month if they feel a club has some worth to them. I have made many friends through being a club member and gained much help and information about these cars over the years. To me it is well worth the $16 a year.

We have about 35 members but have been losing some. We used to be about 60. The President of the Slant Six club in order to try to increase interest and dues paying members started a Facebook Page and in a short time he got something 2 thousand followers or Facebook members. For the last 3 years we have opened up our winter meeting to any of the Facebook members without any cost. They can attend in person or if they are far away they can attend via Zoom meeting. Guess how many of the 2K have attended our meetings? ZERO! Guess how many have become dues paying members? ZERO! Why? That's anyone's guess. It just seems to me that people today (not all but most) have no interest in joining a club or association. I think it is sad because they are missing out on great friendships and great information.

@Allan Miller posted:

Folks are always lamenting growing the hobby. My recommendation: Forget about putting the responsibility for future growth on the TCA or, even more unfairly, on the TCA Eastern Division. Those groups have heard it all before.

If you want to see the hobby grow, the very best way to do it is to do it yourself. If every member of our great hobby--including OGR Forum participants--would take it upon themselves to attract just ONE new participant to the hobby on an annual basis, the growth would be there. "Grow the hobby one person at a time" is something I have advocated for years, and I firmly believe that OGR magazine has helped to cultivate interest successfully, even though the magazine is no longer readily available at newsstands and large book retailers such as B&N and others.

When you have a visitor to your layout, or come across someone else in your circle of friends, colleagues, or acquaintances, who asks about your hobby, consider giving him or her one of your past issues of OGR. Perhaps--just perhaps--when they see a sampling of what this hobby offers, they may may enticed to jump in and give it a try. And they will know who to turn to if/when they have questions or need some advice.

I agree with Alan.  I noticed most of the posts are about individual people's preferences (time off, work schedules, time of year, certain days).  But nothing really on how to expand the TCA membership.  You don't join the TCA just to go to the ED Train Meet.  It seems that is all it is equated too.  You join to become part of an organization that enjoys and promotes the collecting of toy trains!  That where everyone should focus.  Start your own local groups that pulls in young members, and they will naturally join the organization if they fall in love with trains too! 

I have always liked that the ED meet was TCA members only.  Just opening to the public is not going to increase membership.  Then it is just another train show that families go to, so they have something to do. Like going to an amusement park.  They aren't going to spend big bucks on trains.

It looked pretty healthy to me on Friday as people were bumping into me! 

Remember, the number of members at the ED Meet is not the number of members in the TCA.  There is a whole country of TCA members!

I would love to see Thursday as a full day (it's always too short, lol), but either way I am there!

I think it says something when you are willing to pay 50.00 to get a membership.  It means want to be part of the TCA and have a common interest with other members and want to be part of a group that shares those interests.

There are plenty of shows for the general public.

Concerned about membership?   Then do as Alan said and start your own local groups and bring in new members.

Just my opinion!

could someone refresh my memory how the sales tax dodge works?

Apologies for the long post.  This is an issue to which I have given some thought when driving the kids home from the last October meet simply because, like many here, I think the meet and the hobby are terrific and it's a little sad to see what's going on.

For starters, I am probably a younger TCA member (under 50) and here are some observations or questions.  That's probably relevant for people to keep in mind when evaluating my views.

As far as the question itself, it comes up every York because if you go to York, you can see the aging of the attendee population and it is striking.  

Second. why is it the responsibility of the TCA or EDTCA to grow the hobby?  What are the manufacturers (Lionel, MTH, Atlas, others) spending to advertise?  TV is probably outdated and too expensive but what about social media and the internet?   Start with the manufacturer and the product itself, and their efforts to reach new customers.  Hobby shops like Trainland and Muffin "get" the importance of internet in advertising.  What are Lionel and MTH doing?  Atlas?  Williams appears to be on life support but what is Bachmann doing in G or HO gauge?  York was the biggest when the hobby exploded with new product and interest in the mid to late 90s or so, if I am not mistaken.  Today, the show reflects the aging demographics of the hobby and the lack of excitement/interest/new product offerings from the manufacturers.  

Third, when we first starting taking the kids to York, EDTCA did have policies that were, in my opinion, not family friendly or were out of touch generally.  Strollers were not allowed in the halls, for example, while power chairs were.  Cell phones weren't allowed.  I don't mean to re-litigate those issues here, and they have since been changed and modernized. But, in my opinion, sometimes there is a cost to making changes too late.  To take recent examples from the news, I am sure Bed Bath and Beyond executives now see the need to have better modernized their business to move it to a more internet based presence akin to Amazon.   So good that the lesson is learned, but sometimes the lesson is learned too late.  It is unclear whether that is the case here, but here's hoping that is not the case.

I would not be an advocate of radically changing the structure of the meet, at least not at this point. York has always been a train meet or show for the more serious hobbyists.  The fundamental issue is that the number of such serious hobbyists is declining.  Trying to turn it into a firehouse show or a flea market is not going to make it better, but will likely destroy the aspects of the show that make it a unique meet in the hobby.   Opening it entirely to the public would be ill-advised, because you would likely be canibalizing your own membership and destroying remaining incentive to remain a TCA member.

Finally, in having these discussions, it is good to be open to ideas but I want to note my thanks and respect to the EDTCA members who volunteer their time and energy to run the show.  These things aren't easy to do, and it's always easy to offer criticism as compared to actually acting to change things in a positive direction.  To the credit of the forum members here, I am far from the only member that has made this point.

Have a good day everyone.  

Scott - your idea is the same one I had 15+ years ago. Prior to York meet, I had never heard of a "meet" or train show starting on a workday. Yet, the York meet, and other meets, almost seem a tribal thing.  As for getting the public involved, that is another great idea IMO, but the tribal members may not like that, lol.

I think we need to consider another reason for lower attendance at York. As I watch the news reports on TV with all , well you know all the horrible things that happen to so many. It affects hundreds of thousands of people just in the U.S. The crime can be a domino effect in touching and changing so many lives. Look at the weather that we have had. Snowfalls, rains, floods, mudslides, tornadoes, fires. Homes and lives destroyed. I don't mean to be so depressing, I do want to say that I have been blessed in so many ways. As I watch or read these stories I think, wonder how many TCA members live there. How are they affected by what just happened. When things like these do happen, attending a train meet just might be on the bottom of things they need to do. Just my thoughts. Dave

@wb47 posted:

could someone refresh my memory how the sales tax dodge works?

From what I can remember, years ago the EDTCA, along with the York Chamber of Commerce (I think they were involved, but not 100% certain), sat down with the PA Department of Revenue and cut a deal that non-professional-dealer member to member transactions were considered private transactions and not subject to sales tax.  Tax agents still occasionally visit the dealer hall(s) to check up on things, but they leave the member halls alone, as long as they remain members only.  The reasoning is that the meet brings in a lot of people from out of the area, out of state, and out of the country, and those people are paying gasoline taxes, hotel taxes, sales taxes at local stores and restaurants, and probably a number of other taxes.  The ongoing benefit to the local economy and the state treasury in the other taxes being collected far outweigh what sales tax they could get out of the member hall dealings in the short time it would take to drive everyone away and kill the meet (which would also dry up all the other tax revenue mentioned earlier).

So it isn't a "dodge" at all.  And it is also why a non-member can only attend the full meet one time only as a guest.

Andy

@eddie g posted:

It's amazing how many people chime in who are not TCA members.

Eddie,

We need to ask them why they're not members and then take that onto consideration when proposing changes that would be designed to get more people to join.

They're offering us free, nicely targeted, and pre-focused marketing input.  We can't ignore it.

To do so is to intentionally not listen to the very people you're trying to attract.

Just ignore them and they'll go away?

Mike

@eddie g posted:

It's amazing how many people chime in who are not TCA members.

This thread discusses two groups of people: TCA members, and "the public". I haven't checked everyone's background fully, but I strongly suspect everyone who chimed in falls into one of those two groups.

@taycotrains posted:

In that time period I “urinated” though over 2200.00 dollars in purchases and had the time of my life… just like the previous 68 or so Yorks before this one !

Ooo! Oooo! You always find the coolest stuff, Bob!

Will you be posting pics of your finds in a thread here at OGR? If so, which forum?

Andre

@Ray Lombardo posted:

... why is it the responsibility of the TCA or EDTCA to grow the hobby?  What are the manufacturers (Lionel, MTH, Atlas, others) spending to advertise?    

Isn't it clear that it's everyone's responsibility, manufacturers and hobbyists, TCA and EDTCA, included?

It's difficult, and we see this everyday on this forum and elsewhere, to hold those of us who like this hobby all together because there's always a natural tendency to segregate ourselves by interests, talents, and demographics, whether it's toy vs. scale model, 'O' Gauge vs. 'O' Scale, tinplate vs modern, electronics vs. none, runner vs. collector, tinkerer vs. operator, etc.

I give the OGR Forum moderators here a lot of credit for accomplishing this here, for the most part successfully.

For the sake of the future of the hobby are we all in this together or not?

Should these organizations, and their shows or meets, be inclusive or exclusive?  To be clear, we've heard advocates for both sides here in this thread so far.

Mike

To what degree is "change the days for York" really "my schedule doesn't permit me to get to York until 11 AM Saturday"?

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Isn't it clear that it's everyone's responsibility, manufacturers and hobbyists, TCA and EDTCA, included?

<snip>

I very much support this hobby with my hobby $$ as well as sharing via forum participation (helping others/etc). I also welcome any non model-railroader that happens to visit our home to view my layout IF (after finding out I am a model railroader) they show an interest in seeing it. I answer their questions and give a very brief demonstration of how things work.

However, to throw an all-inclusive blanket over me telling me it's also MY responsibility to grow anything hobby-wise: You're gonna' have a tough (impossible) time selling that to me.

I have enough "must do's" in life. Adding such a responsibility is not going to be among them. Period.

Whose primary responsibility is it to "grow" this hobby? I personally feel it's those that are in this "hobby" to make a profit or have a financial stake in it. Let THEM do the footwork/legwork, and stir interest. THEY'RE the ones that will profit the most. I'm the CONSUMER... they are the FOR PROFIT producers. It's up to them to create product/interest that makes me want to spend my hobby $$.

At my age (71), and given the secondary market flooding, I can sustain myself within the hobby without the need of purchasing anything "latest/greatest". I have almost everything I need in order for my hobby to take me to the end of the line. Those things that I need (supplies/parts/etc), are in strong supply and in current production without needing me to "grow their business" for them. That's their worry, not mine.

My hobby "concern" is to accomplish as much as is practical on my layout, and enjoy it as much as is practical, until that day I must pull my final pin in this life.

Andre

@Hudson J1e posted:

…..@Traindiesel "These days all hobbies are experiencing downward membership and attendance as prices and inflation increase." I agree with this statement but I don't think it is only based upon price. I am in a car club called The Slant Six Club. Dues are $1.33 per month ( paid $16 per year). Let's face it anyone should be able to put aside $1.33 a month if they feel a club has some worth to them. I have made many friends through being a club member and gained much help and information about these cars over the years. To me it is well worth the $16 a year…..

….It just seems to me that people today (not all but most) have no interest in joining a club or association. I think it is sad because they are missing out on great friendships and great information.

Phil, to clarify what I failed to refer to about prices and inflation increasing, I meant to say the prices of the trains not membership costs. People may not want to buy trains because of the costs, so they won’t want to join an organization like the TCA. The cost of membership is minuscule comparatively.

Your last statement above is so true.

Just wondering.  Can we save this thread and repost it after the October 2023 York show?   I’m pretty sure we will see the same thoughts again.  
I’m pretty sure I saw most of these last October as well.  

@Paul Kallus posted:

Scott - your idea is the same one I had 15+ years ago. Prior to York meet, I had never heard of a "meet" or train show starting on a workday. Yet, the York meet, and other meets, almost seem a tribal thing.  As for getting the public involved, that is another great idea IMO, but the tribal members may not like that, lol.

I think it's relevant to observe that the Carlisle car show, which is held at roughly the same times as York (exactly the same weekend this April) and attracts a similar type of hobbyist, runs from Wednesday to Sunday.  That venue sure looked crowded when I drove past it on the turnpike on Friday - people seem to be willing to find the time to attend.

There's some truth to your "tribal" comments - ED is very slow to consider and adopt new ideas. 

@scott.smith posted:

If we are going to get serious about bringing in the public we need to get real about.

Thursday through Saturday is not working. By the time guests arrive Saturday people are packing up to go home. People that have jobs the Thursday, Friday thing doesn't work that well.

Shift the entire event to Friday-Sunday.  Open the meet at noon on Friday for members only. Saturday 9-5 or 9-6. Sunday will be a much shorter event. Honestly I don't like Sunday as an event day because I go to church every Sunday. However I feel this would work better. The public can see more, the membership gets first shot.

What do you guys think?

Scott Smith

Scott,

I am in total agreement with you and have thought the same thing myself. It should be open to the public on Saturday and Sunday. I would say between around 1995 to about 2015, it was great  with all the manufacturers, big dealers, scenery and electronics suppliers. Now it has just turned into a giant fire hall meet. The thing that makes shows like Springfield so great is that they are open to the public. And they did the same with the TCA Ft. Pitt Division shows here in Pittsburgh which are much better than they were years ago.

A few more observations...

I wonder if anyone from ED watches the York posts.  If not, they probably should...

IMO, the critical question for ED is "what should York be?".  If it's going to be a meet primarily for diehard enthusiasts, so be it.  Unfortunately, I think the result of that will be a slow death spiral as the folks who fit that description age out of the organization.  If it's going to be a vehicle for growing the hobby, then changes need to be considered.  There's a lot of parochial thinking in TCA in general and ED in particular.  The efforts to expand the audience for York have been half-hearted at best.

Regarding who is responsible for growing the hobby - expecting manufacturers to do it is misguided - they're in it to make a profit.  Every one of us who enjoys trains should share the responsibility for bringing others into the hobby - if we expect "someone else" to do it, it won't happen.

Lets just leave it the way it is.

@laming posted:

... to throw an all-inclusive blanket over me telling me it's also MY responsibility to grow anything hobby-wise: You're gonna' have a tough (impossible) time selling that to me.

I have enough "must do's" in life. Adding such a responsibility is not going to be among them. Period.

No one's telling you personally that you have to do anything.

But, someone has to do it.  Enough of us have for over 120 years to ensure that our beloved hobby is still here.  Who carries on next?  These are the folks that the TCA needs to attract.

It's not just the manufacturers that make this thing work.  All of us do; no matter how little it all adds up.

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

No one's telling you personally that you have to do anything.

But, someone has to do it.  Enough of us have for over 120 years to ensure that our beloved hobby is still here.  Who carries on next?  These are the folks that the TCA needs to attract.

It's not just the manufacturers that make this thing work.  All of us do; no matter how little it all adds up.

Mike

You just did (in your original post), Mike. I was only quoting your own words, which were: "Isn't it clear that it's everyone's responsibility, manufacturers and hobbyists, TCA and EDTCA, included?" (The italicized emphasis on "everyone's" was inserted by you.)

"Everyone" means just that, unless you're using the word as a synecdoche. However, your follow up thoughts you expressed indicates you did not intend to use it as a synecdoche.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with one trying to make an impact upon what one perceives as a need, or even working under the perception that it's their personal responsibility to do so. However, I feel its misguided when that person attempts to coerce others into joining one's "cause" by trying to project it onto others as being "their" responsibility also.

As for "who carries on next"? Those that decide to receive the baton and continue the relay run.

Andre

@laming posted:

...snip..."Everyone" means just that, unless you're using the word as a synecdoche. However, your follow up thoughts you expressed indicates you did not intend to use it as a synecdoche. ...snip... Andre

At the very least, after wading through this whole thread, I just learned a new word today!

When I started attending the York Meet in 1984 it was Friday and half a day Saturday. BUT the entire week included all of the bandit meets at different hotels and parking lots. I was jealous of the guys who went for the whole week. I would go for the day on Friday. My interest at the time was Lionel postwar and MPC. I remember hearing about guys making a killing at the bandit meets then reselling their purchases to us at the TCA meet.. I amassed a nice postwar collection and was able to fill in new products at near preorder prices. Those were the days I'd come home with a trunk full.

With the evolution of the trains, the high tech improvements and the finely detailed scale models, have captured the interest of many of us. Most of my train budget consists of preorders from the latest Lionel catalog. That being said, I really miss the Lionel and other manufacturers presence at the meet. It was a chance to see preproduction models and ask any questions I might have about things I planed on ordering. I find myself questioning whether or not I want to drive from New York now that there are few manufacturers and none of the big guys. I actually have a few friends that no longer attend for this reason.

But the idea of seeing and talking to friends has contributed greatly to my decision to continue to attend. I would really like to see the Eastern Division and Lionel resolve their issues. If Lionel comes back I think others will follow. And guys like myself, who always looked forward to Lionel's presence and no longer attend may come back as well.  

@Mallard4468 posted:

A few more observations...

I wonder if anyone from ED watches the York posts.  If not, they probably should...

IMO, the critical question for ED is "what should York be?".  If it's going to be a meet primarily for diehard enthusiasts, so be it.  Unfortunately, I think the result of that will be a slow death spiral as the folks who fit that description age out of the organization.  If it's going to be a vehicle for growing the hobby, then changes need to be considered.  There's a lot of parochial thinking in TCA in general and ED in particular.  The efforts to expand the audience for York have been half-hearted at best.

Regarding who is responsible for growing the hobby - expecting manufacturers to do it is misguided - they're in it to make a profit.  Every one of us who enjoys trains should share the responsibility for bringing others into the hobby - if we expect "someone else" to do it, it won't happen.

Who knows, maybe someone from Eastern Division does read posts on the OGR Forum because they have recognized it as a valuable source for information about the hobby in general and now also for feedback from the core, target audience in particular? Maybe they were at the 8:00am meeting on Saturday and just mayhaps they volunteered to bring back Kids Korner at York this Spring after being gone for 3 and a half years?... I'm going with all of those things did indeed happen. Just sayin' 😉

Rob Newman

99-49679

Director - TCA Eastern Division

Kids Korner Chair

I like the meet the way it is. Kudos TCA-ED.

I also like the way it is. Many thanks to Those workers that put this meet on. Thanks Dianna & Debbie, and all the other workers.

@laming posted:

I very much support this hobby with my hobby $$ as well as sharing via forum participation (helping others/etc). I also welcome any non model-railroader that happens to visit our home to view my layout IF (after finding out I am a model railroader) they show an interest in seeing it. I answer their questions and give a very brief demonstration of how things work.

However, to throw an all-inclusive blanket over me telling me it's also MY responsibility to grow anything hobby-wise: You're gonna' have a tough (impossible) time selling that to me.

I have enough "must do's" in life. Adding such a responsibility is not going to be among them. Period.

Whose primary responsibility is it to "grow" this hobby? I personally feel it's those that are in this "hobby" to make a profit or have a financial stake in it. Let THEM do the footwork/legwork, and stir interest. THEY'RE the ones that will profit the most. I'm the CONSUMER... they are the FOR PROFIT producers. It's up to them to create product/interest that makes me want to spend my hobby $$.

At my age (71), and given the secondary market flooding, I can sustain myself within the hobby without the need of purchasing anything "latest/greatest". I have almost everything I need in order for my hobby to take me to the end of the line. Those things that I need (supplies/parts/etc), are in strong supply and in current production without needing me to "grow their business" for them. That's their worry, not mine.

My hobby "concern" is to accomplish as much as is practical on my layout, and enjoy it as much as is practical, until that day I must pull my final pin in this life.

Andre

Agree wholeheartedly.  Well said.  

Another point that Skip mentioned also bears emphasis:  Lionel is the biggest name in the hobby, and if there was some sort of juvenile spat about Orange Hall location preventing them from attending (I recall some last minute announcement from Lionel when this first came up that gave off that impression), I would tell EDTCA to get it resolved, pronto.  If there are actual business reasons Lionel or other manufacturers won't attend, then that is outside of EDTCA's control and you can only do what you can do.  But if it is some sort of idiotic dispute, then that is something within EDTCA's control and it should be resolved.  The meet is more interesting, and there will be more "buzz" if the major manufacturers are at the show.   And sometimes you need to stoop to conquer, as they say.  

After initially posting, it occurred to me the inherent difference between a convention and a show, and while TCA has separate conventions, and despite being a TCA member, I forgot exactly how the York show is promoted. A quick check of TCA's site, it is clearly advertised as a Train Meet. Yet, they also list the following: "The York Expo Center and the Operating Layout Buildings are open to the Public."

Therein lies the challenge of the Eastern Division coordinators. I applaud them for opening the "meet" to the public, though I wonder how many of the "public" actually attend, which brings the subject full circle and back to Scott's proposal.

@eddie g posted:

We don't want the public. We want members. Come on Scott. leave the meet just the way it is. Maybe all day Thursday.

This old-fashioned, close-minded attitude is EXACTLY why this show/meet is dying. Eddie, where do you think new members come from?  

I agree with changing the show/meet to Friday-Sunday.

Mr. Melvin, you do see the news everyday. Do you think all these people affected by the disastrous happenings just in this country are not train collectors? If they would change the days Friday through Sunday will you and the staff be at a vendor table?

Saying the meet is dying is a bit extreme. Changing, and going back to its roots as a member-to-member private meet? Yes. Dying? I don't think so. Before what we know as the Orange hall was built, the York meet was still a big event. After outgrowing a nearby livestock pavilion, it moved into one hall on the fairgrounds and then, as it grew over time, it expanded into other buildings.  I remember it was a huge deal that there were 4 halls (red, white, blue and yellow) back in the 70s when I started attending. Things change over time, and if it means going back to "only" 4 halls, I don't see that as an indication that the meet is dying.

Earlier this month, we were all informed that this organization lost TCA as an advertiser; does that mean OGR is doomed as well?

Rich, So like Blue Comet said, are you going to set up on Friday, Saturday and Sunday?????????

@BlueComet400 posted:

Earlier this month, we were all informed that this organization lost 2 advertisers; does that mean it is dying as well? Probably not.

Speaking of which did anyone ask anyone from the TCA about this or at least get their side of the story? 

Point 2, everyone that wants to change and go the entire weekend start your own show, the same weekend and compete with the EDTCA.  Competition drives change and improvement.  Or is it too much work?

Question for those that want to change EDTCA’s York meet. Are you saying that the “public” should be allowed into the member halls? Would that many individual sellers still come if there was no PA tax break and this just became another show?

And what public are you wanting to attend?  Pittsburgh has a population of 300,000 ($60k ave income) and York has 45,000 ($48k).  

I would hope the folks that put on this meet look at all sides to this and do their best to satisfied their members.

@laming posted:

You just did (in your original post), Mike. I was only quoting your own words, which were: "Isn't it clear that it's everyone's responsibility, manufacturers and hobbyists, TCA and EDTCA, included?" (The italicized emphasis on "everyone's" was inserted by you.)

"Everyone" means just that, unless you're using the word as a synecdoche. However, your follow up thoughts you expressed indicates you did not intend to use it as a synecdoche.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with one trying to make an impact upon what one perceives as a need, or even working under the perception that it's their personal responsibility to do so. However, I feel its misguided when that person attempts to coerce others into joining one's "cause" by trying to project it onto others as being "their" responsibility also.

As for "who carries on next"? Those that decide to receive the baton and continue the relay run.

Andre

Andre,

I most certainly did not intend to shove anything down your throat, or anyone else's for that matter.

I guess when we speak of "we" it should be obvious that it's not really "we" because there will always be someone that disagrees, but then this is the essence of the struggle to find something in common between all of us, whether in the hobby or on the OGR Forum.

This commonality is very important for the future of the hobby, and it's apparently what TCA is looking for in trying to prepare for it.

If we can't agree that we all have some responsibility for preparing for the future, at least can we agree that we have more in common than not?

If not I suggest, to avoid this kind of misunderstanding in the future, that we assume that all of us are different, and that we have nothing in common.  In this way we will not put words in any one person's mouth that they do not agree with.

Sorry for stepping over the line.

Mike

An Open Letter to the Eastern Division:

First, I really love coming to York and want the meet to continue.  This letter is written in that spirit.  A few posts back I proposed an auction and a social for Saturday night.  It's not in my nature to criticize without proposing something that would help, so here goes.

One idea that our NMRA Division has used to great advantage is that of a silent or Chinese auction.  Our division solicits desirable items from donors that members can buy tickets for.  Gee, how about asking Lionel to donate 1-2 BigBoys (or giving the Eastern Division an absolute rock-bottom price to acquire them for auction?).  Or Atlas?  Or MTH?  Or asking some of the big stores / distributors (Charles Ro, Mr. Muffin, Trainland, Mario's Gryszboski, etc.) to donate items for auction?  Then throughout the preceding days of the meet (Thursday, Friday, Saturday - whatever), members can view the item, decide to bid, buy 2-part tickets, fill them out, and put the identifying part in the bin of their choice (keep the numbered part).  No limit on the number of tickets that can be purchased.  Make the price $1-2 / ticket.  

On Saturday night, you open one of the smaller halls, say Purple or Black and hold the auction.  Encourage some food trucks to park outside so that people can get something to eat and watch the show.  Then you bring in someone to pick from the bin, announce the result (no shortage of self-important blowhards for that purpose), and award the prizes.  You could also coordinate the ice-cream social for the end of the evening.  Make it a party.

Our NMRA division uses this technique to help offset our Model Railroad Jamboree every April.  We auction off dozens of donated items.  Say you get 400 members (out of a potential 8,000 member attendance) interested in the auction and each decides to spend $20 (sell the tickets only in multiples).  You'll gross $8,000 but more importantly, create interest and a reason to keep coming back.

I guarantee you will have a crowd and raise some money - maybe enough to help with the meet costs.  Keep the auction for members only and tell the taxman to take a hike.  This also creates an inducement for joining the TCA.

Yes, there are some details to work out.  And yes, it takes upfront preparation and work to ask for donations.  No question there.  But I think the reward far outweighs the effort.

That's the proven idea that I freely give to the Eastern Division to help them out.  All you need is the will to carry it out.

George

@Sean's Train Depot posted:

[Snip]  You don't join the TCA just to go to the ED Train Meet.   [Snip]

Just my opinion!

While there are many topics in this thread that I could comment on, I will limit my response to just the statement quoted above.  I absolutely joined the TCA many years ago solely to be able to attend the York train meet.  After attending a few times, I let my membership lapse.  Although I considered going back after the dealer halls were opened to the public, I have not as of yet.

@Dave Nichols posted:

Mr. Melvin, you do see the news everyday. Do you think all these people affected by the disastrous happenings just in this country are not train collectors? If they would change the days Friday through Sunday will you and the staff be at a vendor table?

@eddie g posted:

Rich, So like Blue Comet said, are you going to set up on Friday, Saturday and Sunday?????????

I don't understand the connection between everyday news and the question posed this thread.

I also can't answer the question about Friday through Sunday setup. I'm not an employee, partner, owner, or stockholder in OGR now. I retired from OGR back in 2018, so those decisions are not up to me any more. My comment about the day change was just a personal observation.

However, without some serious effort on the part of EDTCA to attract new, younger members, the likelihood of Lionel, OGR, and other manufacturers coming back to this meet is pretty slim, no matter what the days are.

G3750, No one is going to stay on Saturday night for an auction. Every one is heading home at around 2-3 pm. I would like to see the auction come back, but on Thursday or Friday night.

Eddie G

You use this forum for free to support the York meet constantly yet you are not a forum supporter. Why?

Gunny

@eddie g posted:

G3750, No one is going to stay on Saturday night for an auction. Every one is heading home at around 2-3 pm. I would like to see the auction come back, but on Thursday or Friday night.

Eddie,

The point was to hold the meet Friday, Saturday, and Sunday (until 2).  That way the Saturday night auction is a draw for people.  And those whose appetite was whetted that night have Sunday morning to finish up their shopping.  I mean seriously, the weekend is pretty much done in the current format.  Why not take advantage of Saturday night and Sunday morning to mop up?

In any case, ignoring the situation (keeping things the same) doesn't grow the meet, doesn't improve things.  Adapt or die.

George

Gunny, None of your business.

@Dave Nichols posted:

If they would change the days Friday through Sunday will you and the staff be at a vendor table?

At this time, OGR is planning to be at the October Meet. Not sure what arrangements we (Alan Arnold and myself) might make for booth space (if any), but Alan will work that out. I definitely plan to be at the October event, the Good Lord willing, and I really don't care what days the meet is held.

@Allan Miller posted:

At this time, OGR is planning to be at the October Meet. Not sure what arrangements we (Alan Arnold and myself) might make for booth space (if any), but Alan will work that out. I definitely plan to be at the October event, the Good Lord willing, and I really don't care what days the meet is held.

I hope that means  booth space. No offense but if you’re just walking around then OGR is really not at the meet, you taking advantage of it. To me being a vendor at the meet means you have a booth and a display. It doesn’t have to be big as we have seen from MTH lately.

Now I understand that maybe 1 meet is more social such as the “Find Dave and Allan” promo last year but when I hear OGR is going to be at the meet I hope a booth is in order where folks don’t have to be looking in the halls for a random chance meeting.

Take this post in the spirit it is intended. To see OGR again with a presence even if smaller.

Agreed, Marty. Any business whose principals/employees are there to promote its product and acquire customers, having only paid the entry fee and not committed to booth space, is simply taking advantage of the situation. I have participated in trade shows / conventions to promote my business, and every time, I was required to rent booth space.

I like the half day Thursday and Friday days.  It gives me the weekend to visit with my brother-in-law in PA on the weekend.  We used to go on Just Saturday before retirement.  It took us longer in travel time then we spent at the show.

@BlueComet400 posted:

Agreed, Marty. Any business whose principals/employees are there to promote its product and acquire customers, having only paid the entry fee and not committed to booth space, is simply taking advantage of the situation. I have participated in trade shows / conventions to promote my business, and every time, I was required to rent booth space.

Just so you and Marty know (I said this in an earlier thread), "OGR" in the recent past PAID for booth space even though we did not set up ... AND not one new advertiser or new subscriber was obtained when we did our promotion at York last year.  We gave away a lot of money and product to those that participated and once again, just like the past decade, went into the hole.  Of course we did this promotion for several reasons not limited to trying to sell our apparel, but to create some excitement and promote the York meet.  We provide FREE sub-forums here on the OGR Forum for both TCA and York demonstrating our support.  Also, keep in mind that everyone here at OGR is a member of TCA and all of us were members BEFORE our association with York.  Heck, I was a member of this forum for quite a few years before coming aboard the OGR train.  I think more than anything else, everyone needs to understand that businesses (and even non-profit organizations like the TCA) will not be around if they don't have financial support.  Heck, out of the millions of pages views we have here and tens of thousands of members, only about 400 of you give $1.00 per month for a supporting membership.  Using the quoted statement above, does that mean the rest of you are taking advantage of OGR?  We don't think so and are very fortunate and proud of the members of this forum even though we all don't agree all the time.  Nothing wrong with that rather it is more of how we disagree.  Anyway, OGR made a decision several years ago to attend the Fall York meets.  Setting up a booth or booths is less likely for us for a variety of reasons that I won't go into here but we are committed to paying for a booth so that at least we are doing our part to support the York meet.  Oh, and I don't think the EDTCA thinks OGR is "taking advantage of the situation".

I will let this thread run a little longer but if it gets to far off the rails, it will be closed.

Yes Alan I know you have said you’ve paid for a booth. I personally would like to see you guys in it but you have your reasons I guess.

Hopefully some day you’ll be able to return.

@BlueComet400 posted:

Agreed, Marty. Any business whose principals/employees are there to promote its product and acquire customers, having only paid the entry fee and not committed to booth space, is simply taking advantage of the situation.

I believe my partner--the other Alan--clarified this in his post after the above-quoted one appeared. We (OGR) pay for booth space even if we do not actually use the booth. The TCA-ED is not being "taken advantage of"  in any way, and I have, in the past, even registered and paid for meets that I will not be attending. I have been a devoted supporter of the York Meet and the TCA since I joined in 1992 after moving back to the mainland from Hawaii. I may harbor opinions about the meet or the organization that others may or may not agree with, but all are intended to be seen as constructive criticism, often based on experience from both my personal and business perspectives.

In my case, as editor of the magazine, my primary business-related reason for being at York is to meet with past, present, and future authors, and to get a feel for the state of the hobby through conversations with advertisers, dealers, and manufacturers. Can't really do that very well if required to stand or sit in a booth. The past several meets, where I circulated around pretty much from opening to close (admittedly mostly in the Orange Hall) led to a number of excellent prospects for editorial content for the magazine. Just a handful of those prospects garnered at any meet makes attending well worthwhile.

Please accept my apologies for making the incorrect assumption about "booth space(if any)."

@MartyE posted:

Yes Alan I know you have said you’ve paid for a booth. I personally would like to see you guys in it but you have your reasons I guess.

Hopefully some day you’ll be able to return.

So paying for a booth requires us to also be in it?  That would be fine but for MANY years, we did not sell enough in the booth to pay for the hotel, meal, gas, rental, etc. bills.  Most folks know that we teamed up with Mr. Muffins and offer our product at one of his manned booths.  Seems to me that our new arrangement benefits all sides ... but I realize not everyone is going to see it that way.

@OGR CEO-PUBLISHER posted:

So paying for a booth requires us to also be in it? .

I guess not, since you haven’t been. I said it would be nice.

If the EDTCA doesn’t require it then do as you see fit.  If you and your team find it more beneficial to be mobile then that’s what you need to do.  Sure I know OGR and the Muffins have teamed up.

Look Alan all I’m saying it would be good to see the leading O Gauge magazine be more visible.  Only you know if that’s viable. Either way I’ll continue to support OGR via subscription and the various supporting memberships.

Much like suggesting to change the days it was just a thought.

@scott.smith posted:

If we are going to get serious about bringing in the public we need to get real about.

Thursday through Saturday is not working. By the time guests arrive Saturday people are packing up to go home. People that have jobs the Thursday, Friday thing doesn't work that well.

Shift the entire event to Friday-Sunday.  Open the meet at noon on Friday for members only. Saturday 9-5 or 9-6. Sunday will be a much shorter event. Honestly I don't like Sunday as an event day because I go to church every Sunday. However I feel this would work better. The public can see more, the membership gets first shot.

What do you guys think?

Scott Smith

Agreed weekends are better, Sunday is so so but Friday Sat with end Sunday would be better.

@OGR CEO-PUBLISHER posted:

So paying for a booth requires us to also be in it?  That would be fine but for MANY years, we did not sell enough in the booth to pay for the hotel, meal, gas, rental, etc. bills.

I doubt many manufacturers break even. It’s called advertising and customer outreach.

Lionel has their reasons for not attending.

OGR has their reasons for not attending.

And EDTCA has their reasons for not advertising.

@Sean's Train Depot posted:

[Snip]  You don't join the TCA just to go to the ED Train Meet.   [Snip]

Just my opinion!

@GregM posted:

I absolutely joined the TCA many years ago solely to be able to attend the York train meet.

That's the only reason I joined. I used to frequent French's Trains down in Baltimore when I got back into trains and they asked me if I'd ever been to York  and when I told them no they gave me an application and 2 of the store personnel signed the 2 signatures for me so I could attend. It's been fun but like any group or organization the few Debby Downers (and you know who you are) have taken a lot of that out of the sails and made it seem like we should be happy to be part of the Borg Collective.

Jerry

Having been there multiple times I have concluded that the very best York day is Friday at the October meet. It is very disappointing to see venues packing up as early as noon on Saturday.

I suggested at the Saturday morning Eastern Division meeting that the show be three days:

Friday, Saturday, Sunday for members and member halls.

Saturday and Sunday for dealer halls and the public.

After being cut-off from speaking because of time on Saturday morning I was stirred up and asked eight Orange Hall dealers that I know about  my proposed schedule. Seven out of eight agreed. One said keep it the same.

Any TCA event that is oriented towards TCA-only attendance is on a downward spiral. The Eastern Division Board reported that the York meet has usually attracted 40-45% of the entire TCA membership for decades. Even the same for this April's show. One can surmise from that fact that TCA national membership is on a steady decline. TCA York for decades was known as a members-only event. Even though the dealer halls have been "open to the public" for five years or so, in general the public either does not know it or chooses to look down on the show as a "members only" event.

Last week's show was one of the best dealer display shows that I have seen at TCA York. Understand that I have been exhibiting in the Orange Hall only since 2016. There should be no reason why one of the best assemblies of toy trains in one location is not filled on Saturday and half of Sunday twice a year. Families interested in toy trains can't come on Thursday and Friday. People interested in toy trains and have heard that Saturday is a mail-in day will not come. The TCA can not recruit new members if potential new members don't come to see what it is all about.

So does the Eastern Division membership and their brethren support the opportunity for dealer to sell their wares, or does the rental income from dealers help support such a large show? Here are some facts: if the dealers don't make money, they will leave early or not come at all. If the dealers don't come, how will TCA members get such an opportunity to see so much in one location and chat with some who actually produces or sells the product? If the TCA does not attract new members, there will not be a next generation to fulfill the C of TCA. The current young generation does not support the idea of membership, in general, to anything, but there is no way you are going to attract new members if those potentially interested don't even get in the door to get educated about the topic, in this case- toy trains.

I haven’t attended York in a few years. I do attend the Big E show in Springfield every year. I always attend on Saturday and it is very crowded. One year I couldn’t do Sat. and went on Sunday. Totally different atmosphere. Many families with young kids. The big attraction was not seeking out trains or collectibles. It was viewing the layouts.
I’ve heard the public being allowed in the Orange dealer hall. Are they also allowed in the halls with layouts to view ?

@Todds Architectural Models posted:

Even though the dealer halls have been "open to the public" for five years or so, in general the public either does not know it or chooses to look down on the show as a "members only" event.

The current young generation does not support the idea of membership, in general, to anything, but there is no way you are going to attract new members if those potentially interested don't even get in the door to get educated about the topic, in this case- toy trains.

I partially disagree with the first statement. I highly doubt that the "public" looks down on the show as a "Members only" event. The meet is geared to the die hard O Gauge Train enthusiast. If the ED decides they want more of the public to attend they need to have more things to attract families such as a train ride around the grounds, train races like Allentown, a couple of more display layouts and perhaps a slot car track that kids can race on and win a medal. At times Edison has had the slot car track. Then possibly families who have a slight interest in model trains would make the trip and attend. I agree most of the public doesn't know about it or they don't feel it is worth their time and money to attend. Another thing is I don't think the "public" (and by saying the public I mean people or families who have a slight interest in model trains) are willing to drive long distances to ANY train show not just the York Meet. York is not a huge city. Unlike Edison, NJ where it is in the most densely populated state. There are many populated towns near Edison and it is also close to Staten Island. I just can't see Mom and Dad packing up the kids and driving for hours to go to any train show. Maybe it does happen in some cases but then either the Dad, Mom, or the child has more than a slight interest in model trains. In my opinion we want the people who have a slight interest in model trains to attend any train show because maybe their interest will grow.

The second statement answers itself. No matter how much the young generation (most but not all) likes toy-trains they are always going to think I can get all I need from forums like this, you tube and other online venues that are free so why should they spend the $50 to join and at this point I wonder if it is the money. Perhaps just don't want the so called responsibility of being a member of a group. As I said earlier it is a sad situation but it is what it is. My opinion.

I am surprised to hear that the dealers would want a Friday, Saturday and Sunday Meet but if they and the ED feel it will improve attendance then I say give it a try. Either way I will still attend. Every year I attend Chryslers at Carlisle and that show has been growing every year. A few years back (not counting 2020) they were at 2700 cars and they were growing by 100 cars every year until last year they broke 3000 cars. It's a very well run, well attended show but even that show is kind of dead on Sundays. I usually go home on Sunday. Friday and Saturday are the big days and I can usually see everything over those 2 days. I would not be surprised if York was the same way if it were Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

@Dave_C posted:

I haven’t attended York in a few years. I do attend the Big E show in Springfield every year. I always attend on Saturday and it is very crowded. One year I couldn’t do Sat. and went on Sunday. Totally different atmosphere. Many families with young kids. The big attraction was not seeking out trains or collectibles. It was viewing the layouts.
I’ve heard the public being allowed in the Orange dealer hall. Are they also allowed in the halls with layouts to view ?

Yes. They are only not allowed in the Member Halls.

I was at Springfield this past January on Saturday. I saw a lot of families with young kids. There is a lot to see there for novice model railroader. I guess even more families attended on Sunday. Interesting.

@Dave_C posted:

I’ve heard the public being allowed in the Orange dealer hall. Are they also allowed in the halls with layouts to view ?

Yes.  They are allowed in display halls and Orange Hall.  One could argue does it make sense to put the displays in the Orange Hall and keep the public in and around the folks they can buy from. Nothing generates a sale than seeing what you buy operating.  One in each corner.  Make them navigate the hall through the vendors.  Again just a thought. 

@baltimoretrainworks posted:

That's the only reason I joined. I used to frequent French's Trains down in Baltimore when I got back into trains ...snip...

Jerry

French's. All the years that I lived in Baltimore, I never went there; not even sure that I knew where it was. My haunts were Lloyd's on N. Charles St, Klein's in several location over the years, Leonard's on Gay St. then later on Belair Rd, and a long-gone shop that I do not remember the name on Park Ave near Biddle. Leonard's was an experience! Sorry for drifting  off-topic but you triggered a few pleasant memories that I thought that I would share.

Plus, someone just might remember the name of that Park Av. shop!

I debated on whether or not to comment on this thread but I’ll share my thoughts.

As someone on the younger side of this hobby I’ll say this, York is an incredible experience and I believe it’s critical to the future. That said, the current format doesn’t work for those that represent the future. Thursday is the best day to find that rare item and get the best product before it’s gone. But the future of the hobby is working or in school. The half day Thursday isn’t really enough to soak it all in, so you must go 2 days. That’s now 4 vacation days a year we have to take (figure 20% of most people’s allotted vacation time) to attend York 2x a year. Especially for those of us with children and hectic lives, it becomes a barrier to attendance.

Going to a Friday & Saturday show seems like it makes the most sense to me. Friday members only and Saturday open to the public.

@EricTrainMan posted:

I debated on whether or not to comment on this thread but I’ll share my thoughts.

As someone on the younger side of this hobby I’ll say this, York is an incredible experience and I believe it’s critical to the future. That said, the current format doesn’t work for those that represent the future. Thursday is the best day to find that rare item and get the best product before it’s gone. But the future of the hobby is working or in school. The half day Thursday isn’t really enough to soak it all in, so you must go 2 days. That’s now 4 vacation days a year we have to take (figure 20% of most people’s allotted vacation time) to attend York 2x a year. Especially for those of us with children and hectic lives, it becomes a barrier to attendance.

Going to a Friday & Saturday show seems like it makes the most sense to me. Friday members only and Saturday open to the public.

You took the words out of my mouth, Eric. Thursday is currently the best day because the best products aren't gone yet. But the number of hoops I have to jump through to make that happen is insane. Take an entire Wednesday afternoon/evening driving out there. So Two and a half days of vacation burned, 5 days if I go October and April (that's 33% of my annual vacation time). Not to mention I've been doing MBA the past two years, so have to make sure that's taken care of too. And I don't even have kids yet!

I'm a die hard O-Gauger, so I'm willing to jump through those hoops. But to someone who's perhaps newer to the hobby? Forget about it.

I get that those of us in our 20s and 30s may not be the primary demographic, but it is a growing group. A Friday start day would certainly make things more manageable.

Do I sound like a grumpy curmudgeon yet?

- Jason

@jdstucks posted:

Do I sound like a grumpy curmudgeon yet?

No, because that was somewhat sensible and nuanced.  Try this: if you don't like it, start your own meet!

How in the world did the Eastern Division Meet make it all these years with so many faults. I used 8 vacation days each year for York. Yes I had good benefits. I took my son out of school, his teacher would mark it as an educational trip. We always had a good time and boy did he learn things. He was seven when we started. He's now 37. He has 2 boys. Their thing is sports. Mom takes one one way and Dad takes the other one. They have practice and games all the time including weekends. Trying to get York to accommodate to your needs and schedule is that fair to all the older members.  We all have to get our priorities straight.

@MikeH posted:

No, because that was somewhat sensible and nuanced.  Try this: if you don't like it, start your own meet!

Check!

But in all seriousness, I'm fairly okay with the way the York meet is currently set-up. Taking vacation makes it feel like just that, a vacation. I'm just trying to brainstorm ways to boost attendance. Going to my first York was a dream come true and I want other people to experience the same excitement I get each time I attend.

- Jason

@EricTrainMan posted:

I debated on whether or not to comment on this thread but I’ll share my thoughts.

As someone on the younger side of this hobby I’ll say this, York is an incredible experience and I believe it’s critical to the future. That said, the current format doesn’t work for those that represent the future. Thursday is the best day to find that rare item and get the best product before it’s gone. But the future of the hobby is working or in school. The half day Thursday isn’t really enough to soak it all in, so you must go 2 days. That’s now 4 vacation days a year we have to take (figure 20% of most people’s allotted vacation time) to attend York 2x a year. Especially for those of us with children and hectic lives, it becomes a barrier to attendance.

Going to a Friday & Saturday show seems like it makes the most sense to me. Friday members only and Saturday open to the public.

This is a good summary of the situation if you’re young.  York is a tough meet to do if you’re in school or a younger working adult.  It was even tough when it was Friday and Saturday because of the travel, but it was easier to do it in one day and that makes a big difference when you have to use your off time sparingly.  I always do Thursday, because that’s when the good stuff is there, but this means passsing on seeing layouts and working at a feverish pace.  Either way I’ll keep going, as long as the show is worth it, but I can’t always go in both spring and fall when so much time away from work is required.  

I believe Thursdays open at noon so that it gives the vendors and sellers time to set up.  If the meet was just 2 days, what time would vendors and sellers need to get there to set up?  How do the people here who have a table feel about the current schedule?

I used to go on Thursdays and I would walk the meet twice.  Plenty of time, and I looked at everything.  Not sure why someone would need more than one day.  I've learned the hard way that if you see something you like, and the price is agreeable to you, you'd better buy it.

I started going to York in 2006, and I'd say it's hay day has passed.  I'd love to see it grow.

@Glenn Fresch posted:

York is a tough meet to do if you’re in school or a younger working adult.  It was even tough when it was Friday and Saturday because of the travel, but it was easier to do it in one day and that makes a big difference when you have to use your off time sparingly.

This is true for pretty much anyone that isn't retired or independently wealthy.  When I started going to York, I could only do one day due to time and budget constraints, so I got up very early on York Friday, drove 4 hours, hunted the halls until the dealer halls closed, then drove 4+ hours home, stopping to eat along the way.  Over time, as my budget and vacation time grew, one day turned into two days and I would drive out on Thursday (and not have to get up at "too-early-o'clock" to do so) and stay in a cheap motel 10-20 miles from the fairgrounds.  Then two days turned into three days when I became a table-holder, and then three days became four days so I could start going to the Bandit Meets (and again getting up at "too-early-o'clock" to do so), and now I have expanded my York trip to five days so that the first day is a more leisurely travel day.  And this progression may even expand further in the near future.

And while it would be nice to shift the meet to Friday-Sunday and save me two vacation days a year (but, at the same time, taking away two days of rest and recovery), the way I look at this whole matter is that this is the EDTCA's party in the EDTCA's house, and as I am not in the Eastern Division, I am only a guest at that party, so I have no right to even suggest that they make changes to their event, especially since only they have all the facts regarding the financials and logistics involved in making this meet happen (that might make for a good article for a magazine dedicated to O gauge model trains...).  It is the responsibility of the individual to fit themselves into the organization and its events, not the other way around (sort of like the point JFK was trying to make in his "Ask not..." speech).

Andy

@Andy Hummell posted:

the way I look at this whole matter is that this is the EDTCA's party in the EDTCA's house, and as I am not in the Eastern Division, I am only a guest at that party, so I have no right to even suggest that they make changes to their event, especially since only they have all the facts regarding the financials and logistics involved in making this meet happen (that might make for a good article for a magazine dedicated to O gauge model trains...).  It is the responsibility of the individual to fit themselves into the organization and its events, not the other way around (sort of like the point JFK was trying to make in his "Ask not..." speech).

Andy

I agree with this statement but I see no harm in offering suggestions as long as the person offering then understands that it is ultimately up to the EDTCA membership.  I've offered a few suggestions but have no expectation that mine are ground breaking or even plausible.  Your statement, <<only they have all the facts regarding the financials and logistics involved in making this meet happen >> is spot on.  Anyone offering suggestions should keep that in mind. expectations. 

As a non-TCA member and with no axe to grind in this debate, but as a part-time litigation mediator and loving to play Solomon, since the York show is twice a year, why not have one meet stay the way it is and one meet from Friday-Sunday and more public oriented ?

Might be a practical solution that would satisfy both sides.

A non TCA member.  You should be ashamed!

I am     - but it's on my list along with getting to York someday !

Lots of good ideas here.  We all have our opinions which is great. As I get older, it takes me all 3 days to visit all the halls well.  I see the younger guys opinions and value them.  When I worked, I only went once a year in the fall for the days I had to take off.  now retired, I go to both shows. So many factors to consider in decisions.  I really enjoy going to the show.  It IS like a mini vacation for sure.  Sure, I love the 3 days but totally understand the younger people are the future and things sometimes change.  I trust the Eastern division to make an educated decision considering the younger members  viewpoints as well as us older ones. I hope all members and non members alike get to experience the fun and thrill of the York Meet.   

@Frank Mulligan posted:

I believe Thursdays open at noon so that it gives the vendors and sellers time to set up.  If the meet was just 2 days, what time would vendors and sellers need to get there to set up?  How do the people here who have a table feel about the current schedule?

Currently, we in the member halls have 3 hours to set up on Thursday (9am-Noon).  Personally, I need 2.5 hours myself, while others need more or less as their situation dictates.  Orange Hall setup is Wednesday 8am-6pm and 8am-Noon on Thursday (14 hours total) --  we usually stop by the fairgrounds Wednesday morning after the Bandits to do miscellaneous things like re-print forgotten badges, sign up guests, transfer tables, etc., and Orange Hall is always busy with activity at that time.  On normal Saturdays, we are usually out of the hall by 3:30pm - 4pm.  I have no idea how long it takes Orange hall to clear out, but I can't imagine it is anywhere near the 1-2 hours it takes the average member in the member halls.

If the EDTCA is responsible for post-meet activities, like stacking tables and chairs for the fairgrounds and cleaning up meet-related materials and signs, in addition to packing up their Silver Hall command center, this work might spill over into Sunday.  I assume that a week's rental at the fairgrounds runs Monday-Sunday, so it might be the reason for the schedule.  This is just speculation on my part, but in the case of clean up activities, I know in the member halls, when it is cleared out or almost cleared out, an EDTCA volunteer or volunteers go around to every table to tear off the name stickers they put on the tables to ID the "owners" of the spaces, so there are some clean up activities required of the EDTCA.

Andy

Screw changing the dates.  How about changing the location closer to me??? 

@superwarp1 posted:

Screw changing the dates.  How about changing the location closer to me??? 

Ticonderoga would be a nice place to have it.  

Lets leave it when and where it is. I doubt that you would ever see the meet on Sunday. Just leave it on Thursday, Friday & Saturday. That seems to work out well for most members, and dealers.

I think the Meet should be Monday and Tuesday. That way the crowds will be smaller and there’s more trains for meeeeee!!!!  AHHH HAHAHAHAHAAAA!!

Hey, I figured I might as well add my agenda to the mix!

@superwarp1 posted:

Screw changing the dates.  How about changing the location closer to me??? 

This coming from the guy who is minutes away from the largest model train show in the world, the Springfield Train Show in January! I would rather have that then trade it for York.

Meanwhile, Ford is better than Chevy.

@PRRMP54 posted:

French's. All the years that I lived in Baltimore, I never went there; not even sure that I knew where it was. My haunts were Lloyd's on N. Charles St, Klein's in several location over the years, Leonard's on Gay St. then later on Belair Rd, and a long-gone shop that I do not remember the name on Park Ave near Biddle.

Maybe one of these? (from a Baltimore Sun article about toy trains at Christmas)

"Amidst Park Avenue's Chinese grocery stores and restaurants XTC were two train and hobby shops -- Goffman's and the Spot Hobby Shop."

Frenchs was originally on Conkling St. in Highlandtown and then moved to Dundalk. And don't forget about Funks on Ann St., my uncle got the American Flyer bug big time at that store! It was a nice change of pace ate Christmas to go over his house and see his Royal Blue running under his tree and his Marx Girard station with its haunting hollow sounding whistle.

Jerry

Gary, you can have Springfield, I'll take York anytime.

Just a reminder of something important posted nearer to the top of the thread.  TCA and EDTCA, and the rest of us for that matter, must tolerate, and in fact actively encourage, non-members to make suggestions.

These are the people that both are trying to bring in to grow the organization.  To ignore them, or worse yet discourage their comments, is a serious impediment to finding a way to attract them.

Mike

I’m all for changing days. Because of the current days of the show I have never attended. I work the evening shift and live 6 hours away. To attend York I would need to take 2 - 3 days off of work. If it was Friday thru Sunday I could just take Friday off and still enjoy Saturday and Sunday at the show.

@baltimoretrainworks posted:

Maybe one of these? (from a Baltimore Sun article about toy trains at Christmas)

"Amidst Park Avenue's Chinese grocery stores and restaurants XTC were two train and hobby shops -- Goffman's and the Spot Hobby Shop."

Frenchs was originally on Conkling St. in Highlandtown and then moved to Dundalk. And don't forget about Funks on Ann St., my uncle got the American Flyer bug big time at that store! It was a nice change of pace ate Christmas to go over his house and see his Royal Blue running under his tree and his Marx Girard station with its haunting hollow sounding whistle.

Jerry

Thank you. I would lean towards Goffman's for some unknown reason but the only thing that I now remember is that it was on the west side of Park and that they had an HO Tru-Scale double crossover hanging on the wall. Funk's was another shop that I heard of but (probably) never went to.

I also remember (and went to a couple of times) was City Wide in Parkville just over the city line.

I was going to start to pack up this thread and get ready to put it away until the fall but a hall monitor yelled at me for packing it up early.

I was going to take a screenshot picture of this thread but was reminded pictures aren't allowed.

Let's end it, bottom line, never going to make everyone happy.

I always thought it is such a huge show, why not have at least 3 full days?  It seems a lot of people like several days there or else they wouldn't go around to the bandit shows.  Perhaps it gets to be a little too much for the older members though.

And by older members you do mean over ?? Dave

My 2 cents - worth every penny!

I live over 500 miles from York, my first meet was 1989 when I was about Jason's age, and I've had jobs with responsibility but never been what one would consider wealthy.  When I first started attending (meet was Friday/Saturday), a large percentage of the attendees and tableholders were still of working age.  People put in their vacation requests and took a few days off.  Apparently, it was enough of a priority for folks that they would use their well-earned vacation time.  I've never understood why someone would stick with a job where they couldn't take a day or two off, especially when it can be planned over a year in advance - life is too short for that!  Yeah, it's easier when one is retired, but I've made the trip using as few as two vacation days.  I've even taken unpaid time off when I was an independent contractor.

I've attended during the crazy growth years and continue to go to most of the meets - most were while I was still employed.  I like the current format - it spreads out the crowd and makes it easier to see things and talk to people. 

Whether the meet days change to include Sunday doesn't matter to me either way, but expanding the meet would actually make it more difficult for some people to take time off from work, as they would need to take days off in two different weeks (Friday and Monday, for example).  Given the location, I don't see York ever appealing to families with children - there just aren't enough of them in the area.

It's good that people have strong opinions regarding the meet - it shows that folks still care. 

@eddie g posted:

Gary, you can have Springfield, I'll take York anytime.

LMAO,  I would take York over Springfield as well if it was closer and I didn't need to take time off from work to attend.  I've got 10+ years to go before retirement.

For the Eastern division to change at this point would be hard.  Who mostly attends the show age wise?  Those over 50-60 compared to those under 50?  Three days is long commitment for dealers/vendors.  You see it on Saturday when everyone wants to get out of dodge early.  Us working stiff would like a Saturday/Sunday format, retires really don't care but Like Eddie most like as is.

How to improve the show, get more dealers back, if you could?  I don't have the answers and I'm glad I'm not making the decisions.

The current York format is designed for people who have up to a 1 1/2 day drive to get there.

I'm in Chicago, so I'd leave Wednesday after breakfast, overnight en route, and arrive Thursday morning.  After breakfast I'd be at the fairgrounds for noon opening.

Returning, I'd leave Saturday afternoon, overnight en route, and return on Sunday.

I'd use 3 vacation days.

Honestly, most the people who are so far into the hobby are just going to takeoff work or pay for hotels or whatever.

I have been saying for the last decade or so that the current format doesn’t suit families. I’m in my 40s now. When our kids were very young it didn’t work well because my wife and I would have to both go if I wanted to buy much.   Kids aren’t interested in just sitting still while picking things out.   Now that three out of our four boys are teenagers they are very involved in sports.  If they miss school on Thursday or Friday, they won’t be able to compete on Saturday morning.   By Saturday afternoon the meet is done and obviously closed on Sunday.  My oldest is now in college and he will not attend due to classes.  Once again it’s not worth it on Saturday to make the drive to see people pack up.  If Saturday was a full day my kids would attend more and perhaps be the next generation for York.   -just some real world examples from myself  

@steam posted:

Honestly, most the people who are so far into the hobby are just going to takeoff work or pay for hotels or whatever.

I have been saying for the last decade or so that the current format doesn’t suit families. I’m in my 40s now. When our kids were very young it didn’t work well because my wife and I would have to both go if I wanted to buy much.   Kids aren’t interested in just sitting still while picking things out.   Now that three out of our four boys are teenagers they are very involved in sports.  If they miss school on Thursday or Friday, they won’t be able to compete on Saturday morning.   By Saturday afternoon the meet is done and obviously closed on Sunday.  My oldest is now in college and he will not attend due to classes.  Once again it’s not worth it on Saturday to make the drive to see people pack up.  If Saturday was a full day my kids would attend more and perhaps be the next generation for York.   -just some real world examples from myself  

So you are wanting to change the format of the show just to suit your needs when you openly say your four boys are heavily interested in sport (which is fine) and seem not to be expressing any interest whatsoever in trains.

is there any reason why you can’t go on your own? If you want to get the boys interested in trains then being at home and sharing your trains is probably an excellent starting point.

Okay I now have to travel 500 miles to get there. I go only every other show now instead of every one when the trip was only 3 hours. I personally would go back to Friday and Saturday. This might keep the vendors there a bit longer on Saturday and give the people that can only be there that day a chance to see more. I know that for a lot of us York has turned into a social event and that’s okay but there are those that go to see and shop. So Friday and Saturday might be better for them. Just saying.

Food for thought. . .

If York was a Saturday 9 AM - Sunday 5 PM show, a person with a 1 1/2 day drive who didn't want to arrive late/leave early would need to take 4 days of vacation.

@Ukaflyer posted:

So you are wanting to change the format of the show just to suit your needs when you openly say your four boys are heavily interested in sport (which is fine) and seem not to be expressing any interest whatsoever in trains.

is there any reason why you can’t go on your own? If you want to get the boys interested in trains then being at home and sharing your trains is probably an excellent starting point.

They are all very interested in trains, work on our layout and typically run trains a few times a week on their own or with me.

Our oldest is running cross country in college.  It's more than just a hobby as they are quite good at it and are hoping or already running for scholarships in college.  They also want to support their overall team's scores.  

I have attended by myself in the past.  Just sharing my experience since the purpose of this thread was about bringing new folks or younger people into the hobby and York.  In my perspective they have never been overly interested in bringing new people in.  From the rules, old stroller rules, days it's open etc etc.  I get it, most of you want to keep it a private meet and avoid the public.  That's fine but in 15 years I can guarantee the buildings will be condensed down QUITE a bit once again.  

If I were the TCA I would realize that model trains is never going to be the big hobby for other generations as it is for the certain age group it is now.  Those folks grew up with Lionel and real trains.  Recognize that any member who is interested in trains is very valuable and try to make the show accessible to every member.

TCA should put out the demographics of its members.  Age groups etc.  I'm sure there are a large number of members within a day trip radius too.  There are several urban and city areas.

Just my thoughts anyhow.

@MartyE posted:

I was going to start to pack up this thread and get ready to put it away until the fall but a hall monitor yelled at me for packing it up early.

Hey nobody said we could start setting up and unpacking this thread for the Fall yet.

@steam posted:

They are all very interested in trains, work on our layout and typically run trains a few times a week on their own or with me.

Our oldest is running cross country in college.  It's more than just a hobby as they are quite good at it and are hoping or already running for scholarships in college.  They also want to support their overall team's scores.  

I have attended by myself in the past.  Just sharing my experience since the purpose of this thread was about bringing new folks or younger people into the hobby and York.  In my perspective they have never been overly interested in bringing new people in.  From the rules, old stroller rules, days it's open etc etc.  I get it, most of you want to keep it a private meet and avoid the public.  That's fine but in 15 years I can guarantee the buildings will be condensed down QUITE a bit once again.  

If I were the TCA I would realize that model trains is never going to be the big hobby for other generations as it is for the certain age group it is now.  Those folks grew up with Lionel and real trains.  Recognize that any member who is interested in trains is very valuable and try to make the show accessible to every member.

TCA should put out the demographics of its members.  Age groups etc.  I'm sure there are a large number of members within a day trip radius too.  There are several urban and city areas.

Just my thoughts anyhow.

It sounds like your boys have plenty of time later as they get older to get into trains in a meaningful way as most people here on the forum. Sport is the overriding core interest for them for by the sounds of it and the trains are secondary. I am sure York can wait for them to catch up at some point if they do become interested.

@Mallard4468 posted:

Given the location, I don't see York ever appealing to families with children - there just aren't enough of them in the area.

I think this is an important and true statement.........

It's a hike for families (2+ hrs from Philly, northeast PA and DC; 1+ hrs from Baltimore; 3+ hrs from NOVA; 3+ from Central Jersey; 4+ from North Jersey, the NYC Metro area and Pittsburg).....I think we need to have reasonable expectations about how many people might show.....we may be be drawing as many as we can hope for......it will be interesting to see how the new format for the Mon, Tues, Weds pre-Meet evolves.....

Is a different question how do we make it better and more attractive for the "train enthusiast faithful"?

I'm happy the way it is. It fits my current life. However, that is me and I realize that there are as many opinions as there are people who post here. It's a tough question without an easy answer.....

Peter

@Putnam Division posted:

...Is a different question how do we make it better and more attractive for the "train enthusiast faithful"?

I'm happy the way it is. It fits my current life. However, that is me and I realize that there are as many opinions as there are people who post here. It's a tough question without an easy answer...

I agree with the question and your comment about how it fits into our lives.  IMO, part of the problem is that we are constantly reminded that York is an ED event.  I think that part of the solution is to have TCA and ED work together to improve the meet, but unfortunately I don't see that happening.

@cbq9911a posted:

I'm in Chicago, so I'd leave Wednesday after breakfast, overnight en route, and arrive Thursday morning.

Well, there's your problem. Try leaving at 7-8 p.m. on Wednesday. Drive 2-3 hour shifts with the other driver and be disciplined about trying to sleep during your rest shifts. You'll arrive at 6-7 a.m. with breaks. Sleep for another 4 hours, have a big lunch and you're ready by midday.

What? It's just you? Leave at 7 p.m. Drive until midnight. Sleep two hours. Drive two hours. Sleep two hours. Drive two hours. Sleep two hours. Drive to two hours.

The latter is doable, but I recommend going with a driving partner or two.