Change the days for the York meet.

@baltimoretrainworks posted:

That's the only reason I joined. I used to frequent French's Trains down in Baltimore when I got back into trains ...snip...

Jerry

French's. All the years that I lived in Baltimore, I never went there; not even sure that I knew where it was. My haunts were Lloyd's on N. Charles St, Klein's in several location over the years, Leonard's on Gay St. then later on Belair Rd, and a long-gone shop that I do not remember the name on Park Ave near Biddle. Leonard's was an experience! Sorry for drifting  off-topic but you triggered a few pleasant memories that I thought that I would share.

Plus, someone just might remember the name of that Park Av. shop!

I debated on whether or not to comment on this thread but I’ll share my thoughts.

As someone on the younger side of this hobby I’ll say this, York is an incredible experience and I believe it’s critical to the future. That said, the current format doesn’t work for those that represent the future. Thursday is the best day to find that rare item and get the best product before it’s gone. But the future of the hobby is working or in school. The half day Thursday isn’t really enough to soak it all in, so you must go 2 days. That’s now 4 vacation days a year we have to take (figure 20% of most people’s allotted vacation time) to attend York 2x a year. Especially for those of us with children and hectic lives, it becomes a barrier to attendance.

Going to a Friday & Saturday show seems like it makes the most sense to me. Friday members only and Saturday open to the public.

@EricTrainMan posted:

I debated on whether or not to comment on this thread but I’ll share my thoughts.

As someone on the younger side of this hobby I’ll say this, York is an incredible experience and I believe it’s critical to the future. That said, the current format doesn’t work for those that represent the future. Thursday is the best day to find that rare item and get the best product before it’s gone. But the future of the hobby is working or in school. The half day Thursday isn’t really enough to soak it all in, so you must go 2 days. That’s now 4 vacation days a year we have to take (figure 20% of most people’s allotted vacation time) to attend York 2x a year. Especially for those of us with children and hectic lives, it becomes a barrier to attendance.

Going to a Friday & Saturday show seems like it makes the most sense to me. Friday members only and Saturday open to the public.

You took the words out of my mouth, Eric. Thursday is currently the best day because the best products aren't gone yet. But the number of hoops I have to jump through to make that happen is insane. Take an entire Wednesday afternoon/evening driving out there. So Two and a half days of vacation burned, 5 days if I go October and April (that's 33% of my annual vacation time). Not to mention I've been doing MBA the past two years, so have to make sure that's taken care of too. And I don't even have kids yet!

I'm a die hard O-Gauger, so I'm willing to jump through those hoops. But to someone who's perhaps newer to the hobby? Forget about it.

I get that those of us in our 20s and 30s may not be the primary demographic, but it is a growing group. A Friday start day would certainly make things more manageable.

Do I sound like a grumpy curmudgeon yet?

- Jason

@jdstucks posted:

Do I sound like a grumpy curmudgeon yet?

No, because that was somewhat sensible and nuanced.  Try this: if you don't like it, start your own meet!

How in the world did the Eastern Division Meet make it all these years with so many faults. I used 8 vacation days each year for York. Yes I had good benefits. I took my son out of school, his teacher would mark it as an educational trip. We always had a good time and boy did he learn things. He was seven when we started. He's now 37. He has 2 boys. Their thing is sports. Mom takes one one way and Dad takes the other one. They have practice and games all the time including weekends. Trying to get York to accommodate to your needs and schedule is that fair to all the older members.  We all have to get our priorities straight.

@MikeH posted:

No, because that was somewhat sensible and nuanced.  Try this: if you don't like it, start your own meet!

Check!

But in all seriousness, I'm fairly okay with the way the York meet is currently set-up. Taking vacation makes it feel like just that, a vacation. I'm just trying to brainstorm ways to boost attendance. Going to my first York was a dream come true and I want other people to experience the same excitement I get each time I attend.

- Jason

@EricTrainMan posted:

I debated on whether or not to comment on this thread but I’ll share my thoughts.

As someone on the younger side of this hobby I’ll say this, York is an incredible experience and I believe it’s critical to the future. That said, the current format doesn’t work for those that represent the future. Thursday is the best day to find that rare item and get the best product before it’s gone. But the future of the hobby is working or in school. The half day Thursday isn’t really enough to soak it all in, so you must go 2 days. That’s now 4 vacation days a year we have to take (figure 20% of most people’s allotted vacation time) to attend York 2x a year. Especially for those of us with children and hectic lives, it becomes a barrier to attendance.

Going to a Friday & Saturday show seems like it makes the most sense to me. Friday members only and Saturday open to the public.

This is a good summary of the situation if you’re young.  York is a tough meet to do if you’re in school or a younger working adult.  It was even tough when it was Friday and Saturday because of the travel, but it was easier to do it in one day and that makes a big difference when you have to use your off time sparingly.  I always do Thursday, because that’s when the good stuff is there, but this means passsing on seeing layouts and working at a feverish pace.  Either way I’ll keep going, as long as the show is worth it, but I can’t always go in both spring and fall when so much time away from work is required.  

I believe Thursdays open at noon so that it gives the vendors and sellers time to set up.  If the meet was just 2 days, what time would vendors and sellers need to get there to set up?  How do the people here who have a table feel about the current schedule?

I used to go on Thursdays and I would walk the meet twice.  Plenty of time, and I looked at everything.  Not sure why someone would need more than one day.  I've learned the hard way that if you see something you like, and the price is agreeable to you, you'd better buy it.

I started going to York in 2006, and I'd say it's hay day has passed.  I'd love to see it grow.

@Glenn Fresch posted:

York is a tough meet to do if you’re in school or a younger working adult.  It was even tough when it was Friday and Saturday because of the travel, but it was easier to do it in one day and that makes a big difference when you have to use your off time sparingly.

This is true for pretty much anyone that isn't retired or independently wealthy.  When I started going to York, I could only do one day due to time and budget constraints, so I got up very early on York Friday, drove 4 hours, hunted the halls until the dealer halls closed, then drove 4+ hours home, stopping to eat along the way.  Over time, as my budget and vacation time grew, one day turned into two days and I would drive out on Thursday (and not have to get up at "too-early-o'clock" to do so) and stay in a cheap motel 10-20 miles from the fairgrounds.  Then two days turned into three days when I became a table-holder, and then three days became four days so I could start going to the Bandit Meets (and again getting up at "too-early-o'clock" to do so), and now I have expanded my York trip to five days so that the first day is a more leisurely travel day.  And this progression may even expand further in the near future.

And while it would be nice to shift the meet to Friday-Sunday and save me two vacation days a year (but, at the same time, taking away two days of rest and recovery), the way I look at this whole matter is that this is the EDTCA's party in the EDTCA's house, and as I am not in the Eastern Division, I am only a guest at that party, so I have no right to even suggest that they make changes to their event, especially since only they have all the facts regarding the financials and logistics involved in making this meet happen (that might make for a good article for a magazine dedicated to O gauge model trains...).  It is the responsibility of the individual to fit themselves into the organization and its events, not the other way around (sort of like the point JFK was trying to make in his "Ask not..." speech).

Andy

@Andy Hummell posted:

the way I look at this whole matter is that this is the EDTCA's party in the EDTCA's house, and as I am not in the Eastern Division, I am only a guest at that party, so I have no right to even suggest that they make changes to their event, especially since only they have all the facts regarding the financials and logistics involved in making this meet happen (that might make for a good article for a magazine dedicated to O gauge model trains...).  It is the responsibility of the individual to fit themselves into the organization and its events, not the other way around (sort of like the point JFK was trying to make in his "Ask not..." speech).

Andy

I agree with this statement but I see no harm in offering suggestions as long as the person offering then understands that it is ultimately up to the EDTCA membership.  I've offered a few suggestions but have no expectation that mine are ground breaking or even plausible.  Your statement, <<only they have all the facts regarding the financials and logistics involved in making this meet happen >> is spot on.  Anyone offering suggestions should keep that in mind. expectations. 

As a non-TCA member and with no axe to grind in this debate, but as a part-time litigation mediator and loving to play Solomon, since the York show is twice a year, why not have one meet stay the way it is and one meet from Friday-Sunday and more public oriented ?

Might be a practical solution that would satisfy both sides.

A non TCA member.  You should be ashamed!

I am     - but it's on my list along with getting to York someday !

Lots of good ideas here.  We all have our opinions which is great. As I get older, it takes me all 3 days to visit all the halls well.  I see the younger guys opinions and value them.  When I worked, I only went once a year in the fall for the days I had to take off.  now retired, I go to both shows. So many factors to consider in decisions.  I really enjoy going to the show.  It IS like a mini vacation for sure.  Sure, I love the 3 days but totally understand the younger people are the future and things sometimes change.  I trust the Eastern division to make an educated decision considering the younger members  viewpoints as well as us older ones. I hope all members and non members alike get to experience the fun and thrill of the York Meet.   

@Frank Mulligan posted:

I believe Thursdays open at noon so that it gives the vendors and sellers time to set up.  If the meet was just 2 days, what time would vendors and sellers need to get there to set up?  How do the people here who have a table feel about the current schedule?

Currently, we in the member halls have 3 hours to set up on Thursday (9am-Noon).  Personally, I need 2.5 hours myself, while others need more or less as their situation dictates.  Orange Hall setup is Wednesday 8am-6pm and 8am-Noon on Thursday (14 hours total) --  we usually stop by the fairgrounds Wednesday morning after the Bandits to do miscellaneous things like re-print forgotten badges, sign up guests, transfer tables, etc., and Orange Hall is always busy with activity at that time.  On normal Saturdays, we are usually out of the hall by 3:30pm - 4pm.  I have no idea how long it takes Orange hall to clear out, but I can't imagine it is anywhere near the 1-2 hours it takes the average member in the member halls.

If the EDTCA is responsible for post-meet activities, like stacking tables and chairs for the fairgrounds and cleaning up meet-related materials and signs, in addition to packing up their Silver Hall command center, this work might spill over into Sunday.  I assume that a week's rental at the fairgrounds runs Monday-Sunday, so it might be the reason for the schedule.  This is just speculation on my part, but in the case of clean up activities, I know in the member halls, when it is cleared out or almost cleared out, an EDTCA volunteer or volunteers go around to every table to tear off the name stickers they put on the tables to ID the "owners" of the spaces, so there are some clean up activities required of the EDTCA.

Andy

Screw changing the dates.  How about changing the location closer to me??? 

@superwarp1 posted:

Screw changing the dates.  How about changing the location closer to me??? 

Ticonderoga would be a nice place to have it.  

Lets leave it when and where it is. I doubt that you would ever see the meet on Sunday. Just leave it on Thursday, Friday & Saturday. That seems to work out well for most members, and dealers.

I think the Meet should be Monday and Tuesday. That way the crowds will be smaller and there’s more trains for meeeeee!!!!  AHHH HAHAHAHAHAAAA!!

Hey, I figured I might as well add my agenda to the mix!

@superwarp1 posted:

Screw changing the dates.  How about changing the location closer to me??? 

This coming from the guy who is minutes away from the largest model train show in the world, the Springfield Train Show in January! I would rather have that then trade it for York.

Meanwhile, Ford is better than Chevy.

@PRRMP54 posted:

French's. All the years that I lived in Baltimore, I never went there; not even sure that I knew where it was. My haunts were Lloyd's on N. Charles St, Klein's in several location over the years, Leonard's on Gay St. then later on Belair Rd, and a long-gone shop that I do not remember the name on Park Ave near Biddle.

Maybe one of these? (from a Baltimore Sun article about toy trains at Christmas)

"Amidst Park Avenue's Chinese grocery stores and restaurants XTC were two train and hobby shops -- Goffman's and the Spot Hobby Shop."

Frenchs was originally on Conkling St. in Highlandtown and then moved to Dundalk. And don't forget about Funks on Ann St., my uncle got the American Flyer bug big time at that store! It was a nice change of pace ate Christmas to go over his house and see his Royal Blue running under his tree and his Marx Girard station with its haunting hollow sounding whistle.

Jerry

Gary, you can have Springfield, I'll take York anytime.

Just a reminder of something important posted nearer to the top of the thread.  TCA and EDTCA, and the rest of us for that matter, must tolerate, and in fact actively encourage, non-members to make suggestions.

These are the people that both are trying to bring in to grow the organization.  To ignore them, or worse yet discourage their comments, is a serious impediment to finding a way to attract them.

Mike

I’m all for changing days. Because of the current days of the show I have never attended. I work the evening shift and live 6 hours away. To attend York I would need to take 2 - 3 days off of work. If it was Friday thru Sunday I could just take Friday off and still enjoy Saturday and Sunday at the show.

@baltimoretrainworks posted:

Maybe one of these? (from a Baltimore Sun article about toy trains at Christmas)

"Amidst Park Avenue's Chinese grocery stores and restaurants XTC were two train and hobby shops -- Goffman's and the Spot Hobby Shop."

Frenchs was originally on Conkling St. in Highlandtown and then moved to Dundalk. And don't forget about Funks on Ann St., my uncle got the American Flyer bug big time at that store! It was a nice change of pace ate Christmas to go over his house and see his Royal Blue running under his tree and his Marx Girard station with its haunting hollow sounding whistle.

Jerry

Thank you. I would lean towards Goffman's for some unknown reason but the only thing that I now remember is that it was on the west side of Park and that they had an HO Tru-Scale double crossover hanging on the wall. Funk's was another shop that I heard of but (probably) never went to.

I also remember (and went to a couple of times) was City Wide in Parkville just over the city line.

I was going to start to pack up this thread and get ready to put it away until the fall but a hall monitor yelled at me for packing it up early.

I was going to take a screenshot picture of this thread but was reminded pictures aren't allowed.

Let's end it, bottom line, never going to make everyone happy.

I always thought it is such a huge show, why not have at least 3 full days?  It seems a lot of people like several days there or else they wouldn't go around to the bandit shows.  Perhaps it gets to be a little too much for the older members though.

And by older members you do mean over ?? Dave

My 2 cents - worth every penny!

I live over 500 miles from York, my first meet was 1989 when I was about Jason's age, and I've had jobs with responsibility but never been what one would consider wealthy.  When I first started attending (meet was Friday/Saturday), a large percentage of the attendees and tableholders were still of working age.  People put in their vacation requests and took a few days off.  Apparently, it was enough of a priority for folks that they would use their well-earned vacation time.  I've never understood why someone would stick with a job where they couldn't take a day or two off, especially when it can be planned over a year in advance - life is too short for that!  Yeah, it's easier when one is retired, but I've made the trip using as few as two vacation days.  I've even taken unpaid time off when I was an independent contractor.

I've attended during the crazy growth years and continue to go to most of the meets - most were while I was still employed.  I like the current format - it spreads out the crowd and makes it easier to see things and talk to people. 

Whether the meet days change to include Sunday doesn't matter to me either way, but expanding the meet would actually make it more difficult for some people to take time off from work, as they would need to take days off in two different weeks (Friday and Monday, for example).  Given the location, I don't see York ever appealing to families with children - there just aren't enough of them in the area.

It's good that people have strong opinions regarding the meet - it shows that folks still care. 

@eddie g posted:

Gary, you can have Springfield, I'll take York anytime.

LMAO,  I would take York over Springfield as well if it was closer and I didn't need to take time off from work to attend.  I've got 10+ years to go before retirement.

For the Eastern division to change at this point would be hard.  Who mostly attends the show age wise?  Those over 50-60 compared to those under 50?  Three days is long commitment for dealers/vendors.  You see it on Saturday when everyone wants to get out of dodge early.  Us working stiff would like a Saturday/Sunday format, retires really don't care but Like Eddie most like as is.

How to improve the show, get more dealers back, if you could?  I don't have the answers and I'm glad I'm not making the decisions.

The current York format is designed for people who have up to a 1 1/2 day drive to get there.

I'm in Chicago, so I'd leave Wednesday after breakfast, overnight en route, and arrive Thursday morning.  After breakfast I'd be at the fairgrounds for noon opening.

Returning, I'd leave Saturday afternoon, overnight en route, and return on Sunday.

I'd use 3 vacation days.

Honestly, most the people who are so far into the hobby are just going to takeoff work or pay for hotels or whatever.

I have been saying for the last decade or so that the current format doesn’t suit families. I’m in my 40s now. When our kids were very young it didn’t work well because my wife and I would have to both go if I wanted to buy much.   Kids aren’t interested in just sitting still while picking things out.   Now that three out of our four boys are teenagers they are very involved in sports.  If they miss school on Thursday or Friday, they won’t be able to compete on Saturday morning.   By Saturday afternoon the meet is done and obviously closed on Sunday.  My oldest is now in college and he will not attend due to classes.  Once again it’s not worth it on Saturday to make the drive to see people pack up.  If Saturday was a full day my kids would attend more and perhaps be the next generation for York.   -just some real world examples from myself  

@steam posted:

Honestly, most the people who are so far into the hobby are just going to takeoff work or pay for hotels or whatever.

I have been saying for the last decade or so that the current format doesn’t suit families. I’m in my 40s now. When our kids were very young it didn’t work well because my wife and I would have to both go if I wanted to buy much.   Kids aren’t interested in just sitting still while picking things out.   Now that three out of our four boys are teenagers they are very involved in sports.  If they miss school on Thursday or Friday, they won’t be able to compete on Saturday morning.   By Saturday afternoon the meet is done and obviously closed on Sunday.  My oldest is now in college and he will not attend due to classes.  Once again it’s not worth it on Saturday to make the drive to see people pack up.  If Saturday was a full day my kids would attend more and perhaps be the next generation for York.   -just some real world examples from myself  

So you are wanting to change the format of the show just to suit your needs when you openly say your four boys are heavily interested in sport (which is fine) and seem not to be expressing any interest whatsoever in trains.

is there any reason why you can’t go on your own? If you want to get the boys interested in trains then being at home and sharing your trains is probably an excellent starting point.

Okay I now have to travel 500 miles to get there. I go only every other show now instead of every one when the trip was only 3 hours. I personally would go back to Friday and Saturday. This might keep the vendors there a bit longer on Saturday and give the people that can only be there that day a chance to see more. I know that for a lot of us York has turned into a social event and that’s okay but there are those that go to see and shop. So Friday and Saturday might be better for them. Just saying.

Food for thought. . .

If York was a Saturday 9 AM - Sunday 5 PM show, a person with a 1 1/2 day drive who didn't want to arrive late/leave early would need to take 4 days of vacation.

@Ukaflyer posted:

So you are wanting to change the format of the show just to suit your needs when you openly say your four boys are heavily interested in sport (which is fine) and seem not to be expressing any interest whatsoever in trains.

is there any reason why you can’t go on your own? If you want to get the boys interested in trains then being at home and sharing your trains is probably an excellent starting point.

They are all very interested in trains, work on our layout and typically run trains a few times a week on their own or with me.

Our oldest is running cross country in college.  It's more than just a hobby as they are quite good at it and are hoping or already running for scholarships in college.  They also want to support their overall team's scores.  

I have attended by myself in the past.  Just sharing my experience since the purpose of this thread was about bringing new folks or younger people into the hobby and York.  In my perspective they have never been overly interested in bringing new people in.  From the rules, old stroller rules, days it's open etc etc.  I get it, most of you want to keep it a private meet and avoid the public.  That's fine but in 15 years I can guarantee the buildings will be condensed down QUITE a bit once again.  

If I were the TCA I would realize that model trains is never going to be the big hobby for other generations as it is for the certain age group it is now.  Those folks grew up with Lionel and real trains.  Recognize that any member who is interested in trains is very valuable and try to make the show accessible to every member.

TCA should put out the demographics of its members.  Age groups etc.  I'm sure there are a large number of members within a day trip radius too.  There are several urban and city areas.

Just my thoughts anyhow.

@MartyE posted:

I was going to start to pack up this thread and get ready to put it away until the fall but a hall monitor yelled at me for packing it up early.

Hey nobody said we could start setting up and unpacking this thread for the Fall yet.