@DJ Haney posted:https://ogrforum.com/...8#183029866830340698
Unless it is painted black it's going to be painted wrong. I think anyone who buys anything of color expecting it to be painted correctly is incredibly naïve. If it's black it's correct, outside of that good luck!
The willingness of people to accept BTO boggles my mind given how different the models wind up looking compared to the Catalog.
@Rich in NOVA posted:A tad disappointed that they did not add anything to last year's Fezziwig Railway. There was a lot of buzz on those pieces, thought they would follow up.
I bought the Fezziwig Camelback as a last-minute Christmas gift to myself, and sure would not mind having a caboose and some additional rolling stock. Thus far, I only have that locomotive (along with several other Christmas-theme locomotives that I bought at the Oct. York Meet)) and the Christmas Doodlebug that I bought more recently. Starting to enjoy my once-again-under construction, year-round Christmas-theme layout. Not sure why, but the Christmas train bug bit me again this year, and now I have enough Christmas motive power (MTH and Lionel) to easily fill a very large layout.
@Traindiesel posted:Well, I have to admit I'm rather surprised, and delighted, at how nice this catalog is! This is the list of items I really find interesting and hope to be able to get if money were no object.
The Polar Express: - I never had a desire to get Polar Express trains. I loved the movie, I love that Lionel has made them in different scales and add on items. But I never had the desire to own one, as beautiful as the scale set is. I couldn't help it. I was paging through the catalog, the lights were dim, the Christmas tree and decoration lights were on, the cars and locomotive were scale sized and we recently watch the movie on DVD. I was helpless. I was overtaken by nostalgia and the fact that these were scale cars and a scale Legacy Berkshire. What was I supposed to do??!! And the passenger cars have people in them!
Ok, now the reality. Total catalog cost of all of these items - $10,560 Looks like I'll have to start a "Go Fund Me" page, knock off a bank or look for a rich uncle!! And all this is after the other trains I have my eye on need to be secured. No, I'm not addicted, not at all, nope! I'm just dedicated to the hobby.
Brian, I loved reading your synopsis!
The allure of scale Christmas/Polar Express items is powerful, isn't it? The history of Lionel making O-scale fantasy items is a fascinating story that involves so many cultural aspects of multiple generations (including Baby Boomers 
) coming of an age where childhood wishes combine with an economic circumstance resulting in us justifying (or rationalizing) spending ungodly amounts of money for stuff that helps transport us to a happier place and time 
. Like others have said, I am glad Lionel is still around and making "stuff,"...just wish it wasn't so expensive 
. I try to look at the positive aspect: the fantasy stuff motivates me to keep going and endeavor to build a neat layout for my enjoyment and to share with family and friends. I think there's something good in that...or hope there is...
@Sean's Train Depot posted:The Hiawatha set would probably be the #1 seller out of this catalog even over the Polar express, but the engine colors? What's happening, is it just me?
The Hiawatha never had white anywhere on it. It had a very famous marron for the wheels and side stripes.
I agree with you on some of the bright renderings in the catalog. I'm hopeful that Lionel will release some production artwork so people can see what the factory has been asked to build.
Regarding the "white" on the A Class Hiawatha... Not white but the shrouding on the A Class was a cream color. Not at all grey like the F7 4-6-4's. My point, white or cream what are we really seeing in the catalog rendering?
@Traindiesel posted:I'm sorry, but that Bob Ross water tower is just creepy! The rest of those items are ok. My Grandmother watched his show on PBS every Saturday afternoon.
*How can Lionel make Mister Roger's Neighborhood items without making the trolly!!?? (or did they do that before?)
*Ok, who will admit to buying any of the Barbie items?!
Like your grandmother, I am a BIG fan of Bob Ross, but will have to pass on the water tower. Giving some thought to the rolling stock.
No, neither Lionel, MTH, K-Line, or any of the other larger O gauge manufacturers have ever offered Mister Rogers' trolley. Truly a BIG mistake, because I have no doubt they would sell very well to old geezers like me as well as to the far-more-recent generations of fans.
As for Barbie: NO freakin' way! I was "forced/coerced" to watch the movie with two of my grandkids (4 and 6), and if it hadn't been for the tub of buttered popcorn I was enjoying (extra butter, of course), and if the kids had been a few years older, I would have told them "I'll meet you at the car."
@Allan Miller posted:Like your grandmother, I am a BIG fan of Bob Ross, but will have to pass on the water tower. Giving some thought to the rolling stock.
No, neither Lionel, MTH, K-Line, or any of the other larger O gauge manufacturers have ever offered Mister Rogers' trolley. Truly a BIG mistake, because I have no doubt they would sell very well to old geezers like me as well as to the far-more-recent generations of fans.
As for Barbie: NO freakin' way! I was "forced/coerced" to watch the movie with two of my grandkids (4 and 6), and if it hadn't been for the tub of buttered popcorn I was enjoying (extra butter, of course), and if the kids had been a few years older, I would have told them "I'll meet you at the car."
Mr Rogers is at home on my layout and he welcomes friends to sit in his Nantucket neighborhood.
I bet we see a Neighborhood trolley in the vol. 2 book. That would be bonkers if they didn't offer one.
@Berkshire President posted:The willingness of people to accept BTO boggles my mind given how different the models wind up looking compared to the Catalog.
I am at the point where I don't preorder anything in a catalog anymore unless it is black. I have been burned way too many times (J engines with orange stripes, Erie Lackawanna PA's painted white instead of grey, CNJ SD40's painted pink, PRR Mikados painted green, Dreyfuss Hudsons painted white). From now on if it has color, I wait to see if come out and then I make up my mind whether or not I want it.
No American Freedom Train items, as expected but still sad. There is another Friendship Train car, but kind of expensive since it has FreightSounds. Still may get it because that is a harder banner to produce. I may also get that too expensive Vision PRR N6b cabin. I want to see if having command control couplers makes my switching better/more interesting.
@scott.smith posted:I am a little concerned that there are 39 pages of still available in O-Gauge alone. I hope for Lionel's sake that there are limited amounts of these still availables.
Scott Smith
@dk122trains posted:I agree with you!!!
Yeah that is something. I do know that the Reading Coil Cars have been recataloged three times now, including the original run. There were a few items that popped up a second time. I understand for the non-BTO stuff, but also consider this. I remember Steve Nelson being told that the minimum order quantity went from 25 to 40. This could be the direct result of that for starters, I would hesitate to speculate on any other things.
I had not looked thoroughly through the catalog yet, but I'd be greatly concerned if they had listed starter sets as still available as that is where the bread is really buttered. The BTO stuff is just a side dish, but still.
@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:Yeah that is something. I do know that the Reading Coil Cars have been recataloged three times now, including the original run. There were a few items that popped up a second time. I understand for the non-BTO stuff, but also consider this. I remember Steve Nelson being told that the minimum order quantity went from 25 to 40. This could be the direct result of that for starters, I would hesitate to speculate on any other things.
I had not looked thoroughly through the catalog yet, but I'd be greatly concerned if they had listed starter sets as still available as that is where the bread is really buttered. The BTO stuff is just a side dish, but still.
For BTO locomotives, the minimum is closer to 40, if not exactly. MrMuffins usually still runs items that don't meet that threshold, but while locomotives are that 40 amount, rolling stock like the coil cars, Lionel requires at least a 100 orders for.
I kinda like the Scout 2-4-2 in the Sleigh Bell Limited scheme. Too bad it doesn't head up the whole set. Course buying the set plus additional cars plus the steamer adds up fast. The UP CA1 caboose may also be a possibility to go with my scale FA-1s.
@Allan Miller posted:I bought the Fezziwig Camelback as a last-minute Christmas gift to myself, and sure would not mind having a caboose and some additional rolling stock. Thus far, I only have that locomotive (along with several other Christmas-theme locomotives and the Doodlebug that I bought at York and more recently to enjoy on my once-again-under construction, year-round Christmas-theme layout. Not sure why, but the Christmas train bug bit me again this year, and now I have enough Christmas motive power (MTH and Lionel) to easily fill a very large layout.
There was a caboose and a 3 pack of old time freight cars released the same time .
Looking at the Lionel 21” passenger cars, it seems that Lionel is merely repainting existing cars already made for other trains.
The only specific tooling for these 21” cars seems to be for the following:
NYC Empire State Express
PRR Broadway Limited
UP Excursion Cars
NYC 20th Century Limited
Some Santa Fe cars (full dome, others?)
Are there others?
There seem to be a few other individual cars, used generically. I am not sure if any of those have specific prototypes. They also slap domes on some coach cars.
Based on the catalog illustrations, it is difficult to tell what cars are based on what trains. But looking at the GN Empire Builder from the last catalog, for example, it looks like it has UP domes, a Santa Fe full dome, and the remaining cars from the Broadway Limited and 20th Century Limited, all painted in Empire Builder colors.
For pre-order items only available through the Lionel Store, does that method require payment in full at the time of ordering? I checked Lionel's website with a no-go, and called the Lionel store, and was on hold forever, gave up.
NYC ESE- Specific tooling but not accurate
NYC 20th Century- Specific tooling but not accurate.
Their Conrail Business train and PC passenger cars where not half bad.
"Are we over the days of scale accurate real colors for real trains that existed (again not fantasy colors which are fine to make)?"
You are of course referring to Lionel only, to which the answer is yes, unless a dramatic course change occurs. Of course not sure if paint is scale.
- Crank
Just for any new hobbyists, realize there is substantial controversy over what exact colors are correct on some locomotives from 70-90 years ago. Sometimes there are multiple sources and they disagree. Some folks are more precise in what they consider acceptable. Some folks don't care much as long as the colors look good and are reasonably close.
There is exaggeration present in some opinions, in my opinion 
. For example, when comparing some restored locos and the original, they don't necessarily match. The restored N&W J steamer was much redder than the original red on Lionel's postwar J. So who do you believe, the restorers or Lionel? The new Dreyfuss Hudson has been described as white. It's light gray. So judge for yourself what is important to you and don't assume everyone agrees.
@Allan Miller posted:Not sure why, but the Christmas train bug bit me again this year, and now I have enough Christmas motive power (MTH and Lionel) to easily fill a very large layout.
Same here, Allan. I was getting out my Christmas train stuff this year and was surprised - again - (or maybe the word is "shocked" ) by how many Christmas items (mostly rolling stock) I've acquired over the years. Lionel just keeps coming out each year with something new I find too good to pass up.
@Landsteiner posted:Just for any new hobbyists, realize there is substantial controversy over what exact colors are correct on some locomotives from 70-90 years ago. Sometimes there are multiple sources and they disagree. Some folks are more precise in what they consider acceptable. Some folks don't care much as long as the colors look good and are reasonably close.
There is exaggeration present in some opinions, in my opinion
Exaggeration or not, the color problems are not limited to 70-90 year old locomotives. They're not even consistently applied to models of the same road name, locomotive, passenger car, or otherwise.
I like the SP SD45's, cool details. I grew up close to the SP tracks, and seeing the locomotives prior to the merge there is no way to mess up the paint.
"Exaggeration or not, the color problems are not limited to 70-90 year old locomotives. They're not even consistently applied to models of the same road name, locomotive, passenger car, or otherwise."
Like I said, opinions vary 
. Lionel makes literally hundreds of different products each year. Every year, some folks feel strongly and express themselves quite definitively about how wrong this or that product's color or details are. I choose to make up my own mind and haven't found the NYC, GN, BN or New Haven models I've bought over the last 30 years problematic in any way, including the latest supposed "fiasco," the Dreyfuss Hudson. Some folks express their negative opinions so strongly and definitively that new hobbyists might assume these opinions are always widely shared. Most often, they are not.
Mr. Muffin stated in his custom run video that 40 is the minimum order quantity for a Legacy engine and 100 for cars. He also said he will go ahead with a custom run engine if he receives 20 pre-orders but less than that means he will not proceed with it.
As for the Fezziwig railroad, I suspect there weren’t any additional items for it since the three cars and the bobber caboose are still available from a few dealers. Might be additional items in the 2025 or 2026 volume 1 catalogs but I think the odds are stacked against it.
I went through the catalog today to make a list (spreadsheet actually) of possible purchases. I limited myself to a maximum of 25 items in an attempt to keep the list realistic. I ended up with 23 items from the catalog but had to eliminate 1 catalog item (Ichabod Crane car) to include three custom run items from MrMuffinsTrains. Now there is no chance all of these items will be purchased as total MSRP exceeds $12k. The list includes three Legacy Berkshire engines, however buying more than one is very doubtful. While it is unlikely that a dealer would be able to offer a custom run 765 NKP Legacy Berkshire without a mars light, if someone announces one, I’m in trouble.
There are far too many Polar Express and Christmas themed items on the list. Deciding which PE/Christmas items will make the cut could get quite challenging. A scale PE Berkshire is on the list but no scale PE cars, which should make it easy to eliminate but scale cars seem to always be available, engines, not so much. Since I have a 15 Anniversary PE set and several add-on cars, I don’t have much reason to buy the 20 Anniversary set or the LionChief 2.0 Berkshire engines, yep both are on the list at this point.
There are six Legacy GP9 engines, including the NKP custom run that will need to be whittled down to one or two.
It has been a while since a catalog release has required this sort of effort to plan possible purchases. I am enjoying the process.
@seank941 posted:I like the SP SD45's, cool details. I grew up close to the SP tracks, and seeing the locomotives prior to the merge there is no way to mess up the paint.
The Chinese factories that today's model trains are made in can mess up any car, any color, any time......just like Earl Scheib.
Two (potentially dumb) questions relating to the NKP #779 Fast Freight set on pages 58-59:
1) on page 59, it says the #779 Berk has a fixed pilot. That’s probably a typo, right? It still lists O54 and none of the individual sale Berks have the fixed pilot designation.
2) The caboose is noted as a VISION caboose but no description is provided as to what constitutes a VISION caboose. What are they?
Confirmed the 675 style prairie is DIECAST
@Rider Sandman posted:Two (potentially dumb) questions relating to the NKP #779 Fast Freight set on pages 58-59:
1) on page 59, it says the #779 Berk has a fixed pilot. That’s probably a typo, right? It still lists O54 and none of the individual sale Berks have the fixed pilot designation.
2) The caboose is noted as a VISION caboose but no description is provided as to what constitutes a VISION caboose. What are they?
1) Yes a typo
2) This is a pretty neat caboose they introduced last catalog. It connects with legacy so if the train is in reverse, the whistle sound comes from the caboose versus the engine, there is caboose crew talk, etc. more details can be seen on the page with the other N6b Cabin cars
This is a nice catalog. I agree with Paul, the Polar Express offerings are lackluster. I have the 10th anniversary engine and the original cars. I was hoping for a Vision Line caliber engine for the anniversary and new cars that at least had sound features. A new observation car would be cool but I have little faith the color would match my cars...I will pass.
@Grampstrains posted:If a trolley was just the normal Lionel trolley, I wouldn't be interested unless it looked more like the real Mr. Rogers trolley. I don't know if the expense of new tooling would be worth it.
Really no point in doing the Mr. Rogers trolley unless the model is faithful to the prototype seen in every episode of the televised program.
The ATSF Hotbox Reefer is another item that I was thinking about getting. I have the ATSF Vision Reefer set from a few years ago (not the most recent run). I love the Vision Reefers. I would prefer a modern 57' Hotbox Reefer though, since I model the BNSF and ATSF in the modern day (1990s-Present). Since Lionel is releasing more of the new sound-equipped cars, maybe we'll see some modern Vision Freight Sounds freight cars in the next few years (especially modern reefers, tank cars, box cars, and maybe hoppers and intermodal cars).
@Keith Crook 020419 posted:1) Yes a typo
2) This is a pretty neat caboose they introduced last catalog. It connects with legacy so if the train is in reverse, the whistle sound comes from the caboose versus the engine, there is caboose crew talk, etc. more details can be seen on the page with the other N6b Cabin cars
Thanks, Keith.
As a modeler who runs reefers. The scale hotbox reefer "seems" like it would add some interest, but....$299? For one car????
I recall getting the original VL reefer "set" for under $250.
@RickO posted:As a modeler who runs reefers. The scale hotbox reefer "seems" like it would add some interest, but....$299? For one car????
I recall getting the original VL reefer "set" for under $250.
That price is beyond obscene.
When it breaks and there are no parts available for it, you'll realize that just under 299 bucks or so went up in flames.
Good looking car and neat concept.....but the price is.....NUTS.
@RickO posted:As a modeler who runs reefers. The scale hotbox reefer "seems" like it would add some interest, but....$299? For one car????
I recall getting the original VL reefer "set" for under $250.
@RickO if you get a chance, listen to the Lionel Catalog overview on YouTube. Dave goes over the improvements made to this car over the last. It sounds like the cost difference is more or less justified.
@RickO posted:As a modeler who runs reefers. The scale hotbox reefer "seems" like it would add some interest, but....$299? For one car????
If you check out the pre-order prices, they are discounted such as CR at $216
@Keith Crook 020419 posted:1) Yes a typo
2) This is a pretty neat caboose they introduced last catalog. It connects with legacy so if the train is in reverse, the whistle sound comes from the caboose versus the engine, there is caboose crew talk, etc. more details can be seen on the page with the other N6b Cabin cars
Yea I have the crew talk caboose, pretty sure it doesn't whistle if the train is in reverse. You have to press train link button to get the caboose to whistle in reverse.
@RickO posted:As a modeler who runs reefers. The scale hotbox reefer "seems" like it would add some interest, but....$299? For one car????
I recall getting the original VL reefer "set" for under $250.
@Berkshire President posted:That price is beyond obscene.
When it breaks and there are no parts available for it, you'll realize that just under 299 bucks or so went up in flames.
Good looking car and neat concept.....but the price is.....NUTS.
@David_NJ posted:If you check out the pre-order prices, they aren'tdiscounted such as CR at $216
As @David_NJ, intended to point out, Charles Ro has the listed for $216. Trainworld has them for $230. Still, those are undeniably expensive cars, and will be even more so when the boards fail and/or they have zinc rot.
@Matt_GNo27 posted:As @David_NJ, intended to point out, Charles Ro has the listed for $216. Trainworld has them for $230. Still, those are undeniably expensive cars, and will be even more so when the boards fail and/or they have zinc rot.
Don’t know when the “boards will fail,” but by the time they have “zinc rot,” they’ll be worth little anyway. Ten plus years is a long time in the financial life expectancy of an O scale freight car….
After careful consideration, I have decided on the Northern Pacific 4-6-0 Steam Engine. Both of my granddad's worked on the Northern Pacific Railroad and this steamer fits nicely on my layout. I think the four woodside reefers would be nice complements to the steamer. Also, there is a NP Caboose, so that would make a full set for me. I also like the Budweiser reefers and the illuminated bar sign car. No comment on the Barbie cars, but if I had to choose between Barbie and Millard Fillmore, I think Barbie would get the nod.
This is a FUN hobby, and the Catalog is pure fun to look at it and be happy, regardless if I buy anything.
@David_NJ posted:If you check out the pre-order prices, they aren'tdiscounted such as CR at $216
$216 for a car with TMCC control, sounds, light, remote coupler, and smoke doesn't seem outrageous. I'll say it. I have a bigger issue with the PS1 sound cars being as high as they are (~$150), given they have no control, just on and off.
Excited for the berkshires to be in the catalog. Have been waiting to get the scale legacy 1225 per Marquette!!! A must have for me real happy to see it!
And the polar express. The plasma coating looks cool and I think will be sharp as it goes around a layout or tree and shifts colors. For anyone wondering so far looks like when you order it through Lionel they don’t charge your card, got a receipt but no charge yet
For the polar express would love to have the music from the movie in the crew talk of the locomotive or a sound box car that plays the music.
Observation car with the added lights is nice! like they added Billy figure and house. Would go for the wind up hand car but holding out for an elf version like in the movie. Kids would love it.
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