Clairvoyance and Problem Solving

BTW, I thought gunrunnerjohn's signature used to say something about "there's no job easier than the one you have planned for someone else to do".

Now I admit, I would stop, read, and chuckle at that tag line at least twice a week.

I need to bring that one back Steve, it really does tell the story well.

100% in agreement with GrJ As a broadcast engineer i am frequently required to carry my magic wand up my ***. 

@Lou N posted:

One of the IT guys I worked with years ago used the expression pebcak.

Huh?

Problem Exists Between Chair And Keyboard.

Lou N

 

Lou as a maintenance guy in aviation we called a Short Between the Headsets or SBH. GRJ surly understands what I am referring to as a former avionics guy in aviation!

@Chris Lonero posted:

Well said John I totally agree.  It’s like calling you mechanic saying there is a noise coming from your car and sending him a picture of the spare tire!  

What do you think my wife does?  She just says it doesn't run or work....  Questions from me yield little further detail so I am left to go look at the item..  Ok when it's at home, but when it's the car and she is a couple of hours away, it's a bit annoying lol

I interact with dealers that have sent a picture of a Yellow braid engine wiring harness laying on a concrete floor and asked for a part number lol.  Nearly all our diesel engine's utilize a yellow braid wiring harness lol  He didn't even offer up the engine family so I could have a fighting chance.  Result, request is closed, no relevant info provided.

Here’s the problem. At least two-thirds of the people who have done this, or will in the future, will not read this post. Why? Because they often (based on their profile activity) are not highly active participants on the forum.

Too many simply ask a question and then set aside the forum until the next time they have a question. Or, worse, don’t respond quickly when asked to provide more information on their question.

I want to encourage all forum members to first ask for more information and not speculate on the circumstances blindly. Too many threads go off the track early because the diagnosis is an imprecise as the question. 

Or maybe, no one should reply at all to anyone (other than to a new uninitiated member) who asks a question too vague to be useful.

when you've asked 4 or 5 times for enough info to try to even begin to help.... and then someone else blasts you and the brand for too much info needed!.... multiply that times the number of lazy posters who don't read the instructions and just post away where it becomes a brand war.... and then you get the posts like that's why I don't buy that brand.....

Ahhhh…. too much fun!

@SLQ32 posted:

100% in agreement with GrJ As a broadcast engineer i am frequently required to carry my magic wand up my ***. 

Nothing like getting gear back marked "NFG". 

It's heartening to see that I'm not the only one that is bothered by this issue.

What I'm hearing from a lot of you is a lack of tolerance for "newbies" asking ignorant questions.  Were you an expert from the day you got into trains?  Is this how we encourage people to get into the hobby?  Should the Forum be reserved only for those "in the know"?  I stand by my earlier comments.

John

@Steam Crazy posted:

What I'm hearing from a lot of you is a lack of tolerance for "newbies" asking ignorant questions.  Were you an expert from the day you got into trains?  Is this how we encourage people to get into the hobby?  Should the Forum be reserved only for those "in the know"?  I stand by my earlier comments.

John

That's not it at all John. The intolerance is for someone asking a question or stating a problem then not responding to requests for more information. Also, it has nothing to do with intolerance for newbies. A newbie doesn't need to have any expertise to provide the make and model of their toy and take a picture.

George

@Steam Crazy posted:

What I'm hearing from a lot of you is a lack of tolerance for "newbies" asking ignorant questions.  Were you an expert from the day you got into trains?  Is this how we encourage people to get into the hobby?  Should the Forum be reserved only for those "in the know"?  I stand by my earlier comments.

John

I think most of the comments are in fun or were sincere to get folks to provide more information. I think the message John was trying to get across is the more information the better. Whether you're a newbie or a regular we've all seen the post  "my engine won't run"  with very limited information. No one is asking them to be an expert, just asking them to help the folks trying to help them by providing as much details as they can. 

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It's heartening to see that I'm not the only one that is bothered by this issue.

After 43 years in electronics as a technician and engineer of various sorts with various employers, I wholeheartedly agree, John.  One position I had was in an electronic repair shop at a telecom company.  People would bring things in and say something like, "It's broke.  Fix it."  The first question I had was, "What is it?" and the second was, "What's it supposed to do?"

I always get Emails saying my engine don't run how much will it cost to fix.

@Steam Crazy posted:

What I'm hearing from a lot of you is a lack of tolerance for "newbies" asking ignorant questions.  Were you an expert from the day you got into trains?  Is this how we encourage people to get into the hobby?  Should the Forum be reserved only for those "in the know"?  I stand by my earlier comments.

 Many of the people I am talking about are not "newbies" to either model railroading or to life in general.  I am pretty sure if you ask around you'll find that I've been more than tolerant of the issues I describe, that doesn't mean I have to agree with them. 

This is not about "being an expert", it's paying attention so that when you solicit help from the expert, you actually give them sufficient information to assist you.  After all, you are here asking for help, the least you can do is assist in the delivery of that help, right?  I think almost anyone, newbie or not, should know that "my train doesn't run" isn't sufficient information to offer an intelligent diagnosis.  Perhaps when You've responded to a few hundred of these posts and tried repeatedly to drag the necessary information out to actually offer a diagnosis, you might feel differently.  I can assure you, the view is different from the cheap seats.

Well said GRJ. I have the same problem with my loving wife and her laptop. I hear "Anthony"!!!. My computer is not working". So I stop what I'm doing and go see what the problem is. "What's wrong?" I ask. "What are you trying to do?" I ask. "Well I'm trying to remote into my EMR and it's not working"! As she is talking to me and tapping the enter button over and over again a 100 times a minute. REBOOT. Patience is a virtue.

So a couple days ago I'm working on the layout upstairs when my wife comes up and says the stove is making noises!! I know better than to ask any questions and immediately go down to the kitchen, look at the stove and turn off the exhaust fan above it and start back upstairs hearing her say OH! I forgot. Had to laugh (after I was upstairs)

It's actually nothing directed just at new people. Most of the time, it's just lazy posters. They can be new, or just trying to flame up stuff.

You can tell very quickly when you have to beg for info. If anyone is trying to help, why should they have to beg for info?

This post is mainly in fun. We all realize by now, that this lack of info will carry on into the future. It would seem easier to inform members of what anyone needs to help. Instead, we get flame ups of others who pick apart the posts.

 Then, when in the heat of the post narrowing down what's the issue, we get "& who made you an expert?"

I should start a whole new post just about that? Is it jealousy? Is it a brand war thing?

If this forum was "policed" like it has been described as, many standing members would be on probation much more than they are.

I actually get mad when posters say we are not helping new members. Just how are you helping them, …. by attacking us?

(Yes, I know. I'm including myself as some level of an expert!)

I like when I see new posters jumping in to help however they can. We may not be experts. It's better than many posts laying idle, waiting for an expert reply when there's not enough info to go on.

@Steam Crazy posted:

"A newbie doesn't need to have any expertise to provide the make and model of their toy and take a picture".  George, you are right!  The problem is the newbie doesn't know what info we need to solve a problem  unless we tell them.

Every day we read about losing people in the hobby and the need for new blood.  Patience with newbie questions is one way we encourage people to join us and educate them.  We were all newbies once.

John

 John,

I understand your point, but you are making assumptions. GRJ and others always tell these people what they need. The issue is that they frequently don't respond or they ask another question without providing the information requested. It gets frustrating. There is lots of patience provided here and everyone wants to share and help. I have not seen what you are referring to with a lack of patience in those topics. This topic is about venting a little of the frustration.

George

 

Regarding clairvoyance expected  in being able to solve a problem my response is usually, "the crystal ball burned out and the genie is on vacation".

This situation applies to most areas of life, including the need to touch wet paint next to the wet paint sign. 

Some of it is just people in general,  and it's getting worse with the instant gratification culture of today.

Further to Engineer-Joe's statement "This post is mainly in fun", as a bona fide retiree (aka 'old dinosaur') my biggest problem in scrolling through the various replies here is knowing what all the different acronyms mean! (lol)

Seriously though, when seeking advice or assistance from someone I try and provide all of the basic information cited above and TO DESCRIBE THE PROBLEM AS FULLY AS I CAN because IMO it's the key to getting the problem resolved. Besides, given that I'm retired as well as the self- isolation we're currently going through, I'm not in such a big hurry that I can't provide all of the essential info required.

George, I find myself agreeing with you again.  You are right about many people on the forum exhibiting a lot of patience with those asking technical questions.  GRJ is a great example; here’ a guy that seems to respond to every question, including a couple of mine.  He has earned my respect.

I guess my problem is understanding the level of frustration.  It seems the need to deal with some open ended questions “goes with the territory” if one chooses to respond.  The only way to avoid the frustration is not to answer the questions, but it’s my hope people like GRJ continue to serve the Forum!

John

This is a true story at my former workplace.  A PC support technician got a help desk call from a women in accounting.  Her computer was unstable.  He walked her through the basics but the computer was still "unstable".  So he went to her office.  It turns our the side table holding her computer was wobbly.  The tech folded a piece of paper and put it under the appropriate leg.  Problem solved,  another happy customer.

GRJ in full problem solving mode:

"And now, the great seer, soothsayer, and sage, GunRunnerJohn the Magnificent. I hold in my hand the envelopes with the train questions. As a child of four can plainly see, these envelopes have been hermetically sealed. They've been kept in a mayonnaise jar on Funk and Wagnalls' porch since noon today. No one knows the contents of these envelopes – but you, John, in your mystical and borderline divine way, will ascertain the answers having never before heard the questions."

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I need to bring that one back Steve, it really does tell the story well.

It tells the whole story and describes every instance documented in this thread.  

I really miss it.

Here you go.

As a greenhorn, I cannot say there has been one person On this website that made me feel, less than I am.  The few times I have asked something, the advice I have received and the manner in which it was given made me get a little more involved in the hobby.

As a public school teacher I can tell you nobody reads or listens like they did years ago. I think we are bombarded with lots of garbage information and ours minds get cluttered with useless stuff.

my favorite signature line was

“Just another clown in the circus “

Catdaddy, as a teacher, you certainly know about people not reading or listening like they used to.  I have been here 8 years, and the folks on this Forum are great for being patient and giving information freely, but sometimes challenge me to think it through too.  Helping me think it through, is so valuable in helping me remember for the next time.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

 Many of the people I am talking about are not "newbies" to either model railroading or to life in general.  I am pretty sure if you ask around you'll find that I've been more than tolerant of the issues I describe, that doesn't mean I have to agree with them. 

This is not about "being an expert", it's paying attention so that when you solicit help from the expert, you actually give them sufficient information to assist you.  After all, you are here asking for help, the least you can do is assist in the delivery of that help, right?  I think almost anyone, newbie or not, should know that "my train doesn't run" isn't sufficient information to offer an intelligent diagnosis.  Perhaps when You've responded to a few hundred of these posts and tried repeatedly to drag the necessary information out to actually offer a diagnosis, you might feel differently.  I can assure you, the view is different from the cheap seats.

I am not a newbie but have made the very same mistake GRJ is taking about in fact I have made it a couple of times in email strings with GRJ and he has always had patience  and understand ing with me and aways giving me good information after I gave him what he requested. We are only human and sometimes we think faster than we type and leave information out that would be critical to the question being ask. Read what you have type before hitting the post button. After reading it does it make sense if not then you left something out and that I believe is the reason for this string and GRJ frustration if I may use that word to express some of what I have been reading here.  I have never met GRJ but he has never failed to answer any question or help me solve any problem I have presented to him.

@RJT posted:

I am not a newbie but have made the very same mistake GRJ is talking about in fact I have made it a couple of times in email strings with GRJ and he has always had patience  and understanding with me and always giving me good information after I gave him what he requested. We are only human and sometimes we think faster than we type and leave information out that would be critical to the question being ask. Read what you have type before hitting the post button. After reading it does it make sense if not then you left something out and that I believe is the reason for this string and GRJ frustration if I may use that word to express some of what I have been reading here.  I have never met GRJ but he has never failed to answer any question or help me solve any problem I have presented to him.

I agree, Rick!  I even find that after proofreading and posting, I will find an error and have to edit my post!!  Often!!  I have met John three times, and he has always been as helpful in person as he has on the Forum.