Yes. 

What is inferred controls?

cjack posted:

Yes. 

What is inferred controls?

153IR CONTROLLER

That would be infrared  controls.

Thanks for pointing out that I can't spell can anyone answer my question now that I've been corrected? LOL.

I thought Chuck did answer the question.  It was a brief answer, YES.   You can have common ground all over the layout, AAMOF, most layouts have a common ground.  If you run TMCC/Legacy, you'd need a common ground for signal propagation.

You can, of course, also use the 153IR if you prefer that option.

Have you seen this: 30100 Train Presence Sensor for Insulated Track

Thanks, I didn't notice the yes only the criticism. 

Sorry, we were just having a little fun at your expense I guess.

I guess I need thicker skin. Back to the common ground  if I'm using 2 transformers for the 3 loops do I run the common from both?

Two transformers phased properly should be no issue with this.  If you switch to tubular track you will have to create insulated rails for signal activation.  Depending on what you plan on doing with the signals (just flip to red as the train passes or block protection for a longer length of track) IR may be a better option.

necrails posted:

Two transformers phased properly should be no issue with this.  If you switch to tubular track you will have to create insulated rails for signal activation.  Depending on what you plan on doing with the signals (just flip to red as the train passes or block protection for a longer length of track) IR may be a better option.

Thank you!

Dave Ripp. posted:

Thanks for pointing out that I can't spell can anyone answer my question now that I've been corrected? LOL.

Sorry. That was not a correction, honestly it was not. I really didn't think of IR. I guess that says something about getting your message across with spelling errors now that you mention it.

cjack posted:

Dave Ripp. posted:

Thanks for pointing out that I can't spell can anyone answer my question now that I've been corrected? LOL.

Sorry. That was not a correction, honestly it was not. I really didn't think of IR. I guess that says something about getting your message across with spelling errors now that you mention it.

Nothing like a back sided apology you just can't help your self can you. Do me a favor and don't try to help me out again.

My preference for signal activation is to create insulated blocks using one of the outer rails.  That seems to be one of the best (and easiest) benefits to achieve occupancy detection in the 3-rail world.  In this way, the signal(s) can be triggered regardless of which direction the train is traveling through the block.  And you don't need to worry about sensitivity issues of the IR controllers, which can be a nuisance -- if not downright impossible -- with closely parallel tracks.

On my new layout being built this year, the trains will trigger a relay which in turn controls the signals for that block.  It's an old-world method, but very reliable and manageable nonetheless.  

David

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

My preference for signal activation is to create insulated blocks using one of the outer rails.  That seems to be one of the best (and easiest) benefits to achieve occupancy detection in the 3-rail world.  In this way, the signal(s) can be triggered regardless of which direction the train is traveling through the block.  And you don't need to worry about sensitivity issues of the IR controllers, which can be a nuisance -- if not downright impossible -- with closely parallel tracks.

On my new layout being built this year, the trains will trigger a relay which in turn controls the signals for that block.  It's an old-world method, but very reliable and manageable nonetheless.  

David

Thanks David, that's a good point on the IR sensitivity that I wasn't aware of.   I'm leaning towards the insulated rail. It's also cheaper but I have never tried it so wasn't sure of the reliability. Thanks for your response.

Dave

Chuck,

To paraphrase Red Green, " He doesn't need anger management, he just needs people to quit makin' him mad". The rest of us can "keep calm and carry on".

John H posted:

Chuck,

To paraphrase Red Green, " He doesn't need anger management, he just needs people to quit makin' him mad". The rest of us can "keep calm and carry on".

What I needed was a question about running trains answered, I was under the impression that's what the forum was for not for seeing what kind of digs you can get in or what you can find wrong with someone's post. I lump you in with Chuck another person to please stay off of my post.

You can connect everything together using common ground including transformers that are phased. This saves a lot of wire. I use black for common. 

Rod Miller

romiller49 posted:

You can connect everything together using common ground including transformers that are phased. This saves a lot of wire. I use black for common. 

Rod Miller

 

Thanks Rod, Does it matter if I run conventional? By phased do you mean the same voltage output on both transformers?

Dave Ripp. posted:

 

... By phased do you mean the same voltage output on both transformers?

Phasing refers to the AC polarity of the transformers, which must match when you're using multiple transformers in this fashion.  Transformers with polarized plugs (i.e., one blade larger than the other) often help to ensure proper phasing.  But that's not 100% foolproof.  Several years ago Lionel's Chinese factory produced an entire batch of 180W bricks with inverted phasing.    So it's always best to run a quick phasing check when grouping transformers together.

David

Dave Ripp. posted:

romiller49 posted:

You can connect everything together using common ground including transformers that are phased. This saves a lot of wire. I use black for common. 

Rod Miller

 

Thanks Rod, Does it matter if I run conventional? By phased do you mean the same voltage output on both transformers?

To add to David's post, it means the same voltage at the same time. If you have two transformers set to say 18 VAC each and measure from post A on one to post A on the other with an AC voltmeter, you should measure zero or close to zero voltage. That shows that the transformer outputs are in phase and reaching the same peak voltage at the same time.

If you measure a high voltage, nearly 36 VAC, then they are out of phase and will most likely smoke the connecting wire between the pickup rollers on say a diesel as it rolls over the junction of two separate blocks being fed by the two transformers.

cjack posted:

Dave Ripp. posted:

romiller49 posted:

You can connect everything together using common ground including transformers that are phased. This saves a lot of wire. I use black for common. 

Rod Miller

 

Thanks Rod, Does it matter if I run conventional? By phased do you mean the same voltage output on both transformers?

To add to David's post, it means the same voltage at the same time. If you have two transformers set to say 18 VAC each and measure from post A on one to post A on the other with an AC voltmeter, you should measure zero or close to zero voltage. That shows that the transformer outputs are in phase and reaching the same peak voltage at the same time.

If you measure a high voltage, nearly 36 VAC, then they are out of phase and will most likely smoke the connecting wire between the pickup rollers on say a diesel as it rolls over the junction of two separate blocks being fed by the two transformers.

Then am I understanding correctly that a common ground will not work or is a bad idea when running conventional with separate loops with insulated track sections?

Dave Ripp. posted:

...

Then am I understanding correctly that a common ground will not work or is a bad idea when running conventional with separate loops with insulated track sections?

Not at all.  Common ground wiring is used quite often, and was standard practice long before command-control came about.  The check for transformers being in-phase is quick, painless and a once-and-done operation.

David

Excellent, I was confused a bit. I did look up old posts on phasing transformers but this has been much more helpful.

Dave, conventional or command doesn't matter. All outside rails (common) can be tied together. I use black wire for common. This way when I need a common wire for accessories, lights or whatever  I can simply grab any black wire under the layout for common. The hot wire can be any voltage you need for the lights or accessories. This saves a lot of time and wire. 

Rod Miller

romiller49 posted:

Dave, conventional or command doesn't matter. All outside rails (common) can be tied together. I use black wire for common. This way when I need a common wire for accessories, lights or whatever  I can simply grab any black wire under the layout for common. The hot wire can be any voltage you need for the lights or accessories. This saves a lot of time and wire. 

Rod Miller

Thanks Rod, I've got a lot of wire installed from my Fast Track layout. It's good to know I don't need more black just one more red. I'm looking forward to the switch to K-Line Shadow Rail as I had a lot of Fast Track problems. I'll stop at my LHS today and get some insulator pins. Hopefully laying track this week.

I recommend insulated ground rails and "shunt", that's what the 1:1 railroads do.  As for the common ground, Eric has a great tutorial regarding this system and both explains and demonstrates the common ground issue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y31p1AiPaWA

Thanks for the link I'll have a look at it before wiring.

P.S.  Relative to the earlier spelling issue, methinks you were subconsciously aiming for "irrational" which describes "infrared based signalling" perfectly.

Use the Force, Dave.  Let go... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2we_B6hDrY

Rapid Transit Holmes posted:

P.S.  Relative to the earlier spelling issue, methinks you were subconsciously aiming for "irrational" which describes "infrared based signalling" perfectly.

Use the Force, Dave.  Let go... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2we_B6hDrY

Sure that's what it was. Finally someone who gets me. LOL.