Cost to install "whistle-free" crossing

You can Google "FRA quiet zone", and/or "FRA horn rule", and get lots of info. No prices though, just how to start the process, and what will be required.

While trying to find some railroad maps I stumbled on to this a while back. The city north of us (Shawnee, KS) has had complaints about train horns in some former rural areas that are slowly being developed. These prices are from a 2006 report by the city and BNSF so they are 10 years outdated. I doubt crossings have gotten cheaper since then.

Gates with Medians - $300k - $500k

Four-Quadrant Gates - 500k - $600k

From these figures I would say the $700k per crossing might be a pretty good deal in today's prices. I remember when I was skimming through the reports thinking there was a lot more to all of it than I had thought, but I don't know much about the real railroads and their operations either.

$700k sounds about right.  

Used to be able to build an overpass for about $1M.  Now that covers a ramp or two. 

Our city, River City, Track Town USA is famous for "redirecting" dedicated public funds for other purposes. Such as a new unfunded city hall. We have a city manager form of government and so the chief executive is not elected and so is not responsible to the electorate. So when any budget costs come from his office they must require careful investigation. In this case, however, he may actually be telling the truth. 

Thanks to all who responded.

Rick

http://dockets.sandiego.gov/si...4232016083839773.PDF

http://www.quietzonesd.info/glossary.html

freedom of information act is your friend

As much as I like trains I have to admit that loud repetitious train horns at night can be tiresome. So I can appreciate that some communities want to have "whistle-free" zones, but it seems really expensive to achieve. There are surely alternate ways to achieve good crossing safety without continually blasting horns all night.

Ace posted:

There are surely alternate ways to achieve good crossing safety without continually blasting horns all night.

As one of those individuals that is responsible for herding several thousands of tons of machinery following along rails and crossing paths with innumerable idiots at road crossings, then I'm one of those persons that makes your night "tiresome" by splitting the night air with the sound of a train horn.  (When working night jobs.)  I'm certainly open to any suggestions you might have.

It would be great if:

* Vehicular drivers took active steps to reduce their MF rating. (MF = Moron Factor.)

* Vehicular drivers would hang up their phones and quit texting/talking all the time and instead pay attention to the business at hand: Driving.

* Pedestrians learned that railways aren't walkways.

* Both vehicles and pedestrians learn by knowledge (they likely will not get a second chance to learn by experience) that trying to beat a train is a one-sided gamble in the train's favor.

I've had nine crossing incidents in the past 10 years. I'm sick to death of idiots not heeding the flashing signals/gates/etc. Until they force me not to with a "quiet zone", you can better believe that I'm going to be pulling on the whistle lanyard for all I'm worth and giving them the full 20 seconds allowed by rule. (And have been since crossing incident #1.)

I'm tired of crossing incidents.

So again, I'm all ears. What do you propose?

I Ben thinkin',

Those that would sacrifice safety in public for personal sleep liberties deserve neither!

I can hear the first of a half dozen, softly, miles off.

At 1/4 mile they are closest; mostly, the engineers have always been efficient and fast signaling at night when they can be. Daytime salutes make you stop pulling weeds and grin at the sky a second.

I've been in an earthquake, no warning, very scary. I ran like a squirrel 2 steps about face, 2 steps about face.

I've been next to a room that suddenly had the floor drop when tested (no earthquake). Creaking and moaning was a good warning! still scary,lol . Fell on my face slipping in the grass.

I've seen a sink hole in action. No warning, scary.

  A crane took out a corner of a building I was in. (another earth quake I thought?) no warning, scary , then quiet, then dust and people poured out of the  door to the room I was walking to as the glass of the front doors came into sight "there was, Jumbo on his side, dead". Too shocked to be scared I went the opposite way fast, lots of folks at my heals.

Twice at the same Coney place, a wall went down and a booth got crushed got crushed by delivery trucks. Beep Beep Beep Boom. Nobody hurt because they noticed the beeping first, and watched the truck getting too close.

  I like most of the horns, whistles, and bells in life, because they let me know that my world might be rumbling before it happens.

  Without them, I tend to "move first, and investigate on the way" which isn't really saving me with safety, as much as its with being lucky.

 ,...,',',',','Oww! My toe!

 I think I aught to sue the sap out of the "silence idiots" with the first stubbed toe I get out of this because the unidentified rumble scares me out of my precious sleep, which I really cant spare

You want "silence"? Wham boom, your on the moon! lol.

I really wonder in this day whether the horns actually do much good.  For example where there are gates down,  does a horn add anything to the safety or should I say does it cure stupid?  For flashers, these are pretty bright these days but of course they could malfunction.  In the western states, almost all rural crossings have no gates, but I grew up with the idea that you always always looked at the crossing.  With some of the kids  having those booming stereos, I really doubt that a horn registers.  Same for cell phone being used.  In the old days, cars had no a/c and at least in summer windows were down.  Now a horn could have a real impact. 

On another note,  the lofty prices around here most often are seen when the RR wants to have public money contributed.  I have yet to see a breakdown of the actual costs or whether bidding was used to do the work.  Makes you wonder when new crossings without new signals take about a week to finish how they can spend that much money.  Any information or research on these issues would be nice to see. 

The UP started to install 2 more gates for a total of 4 gates per road crossing in my suburb north of Denver for a quiet zone. The new SD-70ace locos the UP and BNSF are using now have extremely loud horns. The crossbucks are installed, sans gates. The project came to a halt about 6 months ago. No work has been done since. with the down turn in rail traffic the last few months I'm guessing some one ran out of money.

What is the noise "production" of a diesel horn compared to a steam whistle?

And all of these quiet cab cars and trucks, some with anti-noise generators, might make the horn/whistle moot/mute?

Some ideas to improve grade crossing safety:

1) Crossing gates that completely block a crossing, like the old-style English level crossing gates.

2) Full-time camera monitors for a grade crossing which can be accessed by loco crew, train dispatchers and local law enforcement. If you think this is far-fetched, take a look at all the live roadcams online which the general public can access.

3) Sensors which determine if a grade crossing is clear of vehicles, linked to signals on the track. Approaching trains get an advance warning signal if the crossing is not physically cleared.

4) More dramatic visible warning devices to supplement traditional flashing lights and gates.

5) And of course, an ongoing program to eliminate grade crossings with overpasses or underpasses or detours.

In an ideal world these costly safeguards shouldn't be necessary, but in today's world more idiot-proofing is advisable. The technology is available for innovative solutions.

Ace posted:

Some ideas to improve grade crossing safety:

1) Crossing gates that completely block a crossing, like the old-style English level crossing gates.

2) Full-time camera monitors for a grade crossing which can be accessed by loco crew, train dispatchers and local law enforcement. If you think this is far-fetched, take a look at all the live roadcams online which the general public can access.

3) Sensors which determine if a grade crossing is clear of vehicles, linked to signals on the track. Approaching trains get an advance warning signal if the crossing is not physically cleared.

4) More dramatic visible warning devices to supplement traditional flashing lights and gates.

5) And of course, an ongoing program to eliminate grade crossings with overpasses or underpasses or detours.

In an ideal world these costly safeguards shouldn't be necessary, but in today's world more idiot-proofing is advisable. The technology is available for innovative solutions.

 

Just add money.

The overpass on Rt. 30 in Illinois over the CN/EJ&E alone is costing $26,900,000.

Rusty

The problem with better gates is ways to stop idiots from just barging through them as they come down.

Many places the arms only cover half of one side of the road. We've seen it all before, folks will drive the wrong side of the road around the gates to beat the train.

Finally, fix malfunctioning gates. Many times I've come across a malfunctioning gate here in Norfolk, VA where some homeless person stumbles over the gate sensor with their shopping cart, triggering the gate. THis snarls traffic badly.

*ell No! Leave the horns and whistles alone. If the people don't like them move away from the Railroad, as it was there 1st!

That's the way it's been all of my life, people want jobs in, and around heavy industry, then they want to be with in walking distance of their jobs, but they don't want or expect any types of "Pollution". 

I'd much rather have train horns and whistles blowing, or noises from factories and refineries, as that means!!!!!!  Folks a workin!............

It reminds me of the people who move near an airport and complain about the noise from the planes! Give me a house next to some train tracks any day!

Call them what you will, "Whistle free crossings"; "FRA Quiet Zone"; "FRA Horn Rule", etc., in my opinion, they should not be allowed.  If the citizens want to quiet train horns, bells, and whistles, then they should tell their local/state governments to build underpasses so automobiles and trucks go under the train tracks and thus no grade crossings for which trains have to blow.

Seems like a lot of fuss over something common sense could fix.  Don't like the noise, don't live next to the tracks.  The more of these types of devices installed, the more people try and find ways around them.

I have to agree with LAMING.

hoghead posted:

Call them what you will, "Whistle free crossings"; "FRA Quiet Zone"; "FRA Horn Rule", etc., in my opinion, they should not be allowed.  If the citizens want to quiet train horns, bells, and whistles, then they should tell their local/state governments to build underpasses so automobiles and trucks go under the train tracks and thus no grade crossings for which trains have to blow.

This is Berwyn, Illinois:

There are SIX level grade crossings with the BNSF 3-track racetrack within it's borders (highlighted by the yellow arrows.)  Even back in the CB&Q days, they didn't blow the horn at every crossing.  At least not without reason.

To build underpasses or overpasses would be prohibitively expensive, to say nothing about making homes and businesses near the tracks difficult to access.

And no, you can't raise the BNSF tracks because of the CN/IC overpass just east (green arrow) plus Clyde Yard is just off the map to the east.

Berwyn actually studied building an underpass in the late 1960's at Oak Park Avenue (center arrow) because of Mac Neil Hospital next to the tracks.  Even then, the cost was prohibitive and would have wiped out some of the businesses on Oak Park near the tracks.

Easy to talk about spending other people's money, hard to get them to do it.

Rusty

Sugar Land TX has something interesting.  It has a Q Zone.  But when a train is approaching a crossing, here are horns at the crossing which does the --.- signal.  But the horns focus the sound down the road.  And the thing sounds like something from a GG1!  It does cut through!

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Sugar Land TX has something interesting.  It has a Q Zone.  But when a train is approaching a crossing, here are horns at the crossing which does the --.- signal.  But the horns focus the sound down the road.  And the thing sounds like something from a GG1!  It does cut through!

That makes good sense to localize the warning noise where it is needed - instead of broadcasting it over the entire neighborhood.

Rusty Traque posted:

hoghead posted:

Call them what you will, "Whistle free crossings"; "FRA Quiet Zone"; "FRA Horn Rule", etc., in my opinion, they should not be allowed.  If the citizens want to quiet train horns, bells, and whistles, then they should tell their local/state governments to build underpasses so automobiles and trucks go under the train tracks and thus no grade crossings for which trains have to blow.

This is Berwyn, Illinois:

There are SIX level grade crossings with the BNSF 3-track racetrack within it's borders (highlighted by the yellow arrows.)  Even back in the CB&Q days, they didn't blow the horn at every crossing.  At least not without reason.

To build underpasses or overpasses would be prohibitively expensive, to say nothing about making homes and businesses near the tracks difficult to access.

And no, you can't raise the BNSF tracks because of the CN/IC overpass just east (green arrow) plus Clyde Yard is just off the map to the east.

Berwyn actually studied building an underpass in the late 1960's at Oak Park Avenue (center arrow) because of Mac Neil Hospital next to the tracks.  Even then, the cost was prohibitive and would have wiped out some of the businesses on Oak Park near the tracks.

Easy to talk about spending other people's money, hard to get them to do it.

Rusty

I see and understand your point that my suggestion is VERY expensive, as much as the quiet zones are folly.  However, folks (business, residential, public health and safety, etc.) that choose to locate near railroad tracks know the risks, noise and otherwise.  If I move to a location near a NASCAR track, I am in no position whatsoever to force them to quietly run their races.

Many didn't come to live, work, or do business next to the tracks by choice. In many cases it was necessity, because the rents are/were lower.

One thing the whiners should consider is, train noise is what was keeping their property values, and thus their rents, low.

If they get rid of the noise, the property values, and thus the rents will go up.

hoghead posted:

I see and understand your point that my suggestion is VERY expensive, as much as the quiet zones are folly.  However, folks (business, residential, public health and safety, etc.) that choose to locate near railroad tracks know the risks, noise and otherwise. 

You may not be familiar with how the suburban areas west, northwest, and north of Chicago developed since the later 1800s. The various railroads built many lines out of downtown Chicago to specifically serve passengers, who wanted to work in the city. Buy the turn of the century, the 20th century that is, the communities were developing so rapidly that the railroads had to add additional main line tracks, with ever increasing passengers riding into and out of Chicago. The prices of the houses closest to the railroad stations were the MORE EXPENSIVE pieces of real-estate, do to they close WALKING distance to the station.

Fast forward to 2016, and those houses WITHIN WALKING DISTANCE to the METRA stations, tend to sell for higher prices! The area that we live in, on the former CB&Q "East End" three track main line, have been quiet zones since the days of steam locomotives, i.e. more than 70 years. The only time we hear train air horns is, generally right before they hit somebody. An additional point, the vast majority of deaths on our "Burlington METRA Line" are from individuals walking/trespassing on the tracks, i.e. NOT automobile related! 

If I move to a location near a NASCAR track, I am in no position whatsoever to force them to quietly run their races.

A truly ridiculous statement! Just how many NASCAR races are run on each track every year? Two, maybe?

   I was thinking those euro-gates that block the path to walking the rails when not active, would be more useful in a way. Thanks for that unintended, sad confirmation H.W.

   I'm not convinced a side swing gate is a better way to halt American drivers though.  I have visions of "racing the funnel" and "push offs" against the gates. ..Two large SUVs, neither "chicken", nose to nose, gates on the doors, smoking their tires in earnest, till "someone" rolls along to break the battle-grandmas up .

Better directional aiming of horns sounds effective, and cheap.

..and is therefore doomed

   Adjusting horn volume to an area's present ambient sound level is naturally  more costly and involved...or should I say more taxing?  The tech is simple and old, and studio quality equipment was a must for good results. Small businesses, malls, and large outdoor venues use it daily for raising and lowering the muzak's volume level. Adjusting musak to the desired db level above, below, or equal to, the ambient level of the area. It's recent evolution must be impressive. They already could be dialed in "instant", or gradual enough to escape notice.  Those electronic "sound killers" in cars use it, with a " fast brain", then drive your speakers, to deaden sounds as mentioned.  It's very likely today, a sudden high db rise is recognizable by some car's high speed processors as a possible warning, and isn't dampened in the same way....well, I'd like to think they sprung for it, anyhow .

   Egregious as the Nascar statement seems, it serves me as well as "glass houses" or "when in Rome" might have

...But it is  LEFFFT-LEFT-LEFFFT  of the safety focus.

(long, short, long,?... Daytona )

Traffic light cameras are becoming more common. They could also be used to crack down on idiot drivers committing reckless acts of stupidity at railroad grade crossings. Better enforcement could enhance safety.

Before air conditioning, people left windows open in the summer.  Even near the tracks.  Yet they got sleep!

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Before air conditioning, people left windows open in the summer.  Even near the tracks.  Yet they got sleep!

Right, you get used to it. No different than those folks that live near Niagara Falls.

The last time 844 came into Houston, I was under Beltway 8 at the Hardy Toll Road.  After the steam train passed, a group of motorcycles passed.  Guess which of the two was louder?

I live about 3/4 of mile from 4 grade crossings. No gates just lights. We usually get one train per night sometimes two. The horns never wake me up and if I am up they don't bother me. I think they are a good thing. One of the grade crossings is near a plant that sometimes gets a load. Sometimes the locomotive or a car will trip the lights but the train isn't actually coming. Most local people including myself know this and we will stop at the lights and then inch up to see if the train is coming or switching cars. I have seen some morons that don't stop at the lights and I say to myself, "Wow, you risked your one and only life for 10 seconds of saved travel time." In this case the horn let's everyone know that indeed there is no doubt that the train is coming.

LAMING, I totally agree with what you wrote up there but unfortunately I wish it were easy to decrease the MF. In my observations of people driving where I live, not everyone, but a good percentage of drivers just don't care about driving properly. They do what they want when they want to. I truly believe that the only thing that will decrease their MF is a very close call with their own death and that might not even work. 

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Before air conditioning, people left windows open in the summer.  Even near the tracks.  Yet they got sleep!

I totally agree.

Some people are real light sleepers and some sleep like a log. If you are in the light sleeper category then it is very simple. Don't live next to a grade crossing. If I had that problem I would move instead of trying to force the railroad to bend to my situation and not because I like trains but because I feel it would be the right thing to do.

As RTR12 pointed out, all quiet crossings are not alike.  There are options and different prices for each option.  The width of the roadway makes a difference.  RTR12 gave you the answer.

Ace posted:

Traffic light cameras are becoming more common. They could also be used to crack down on idiot drivers committing reckless acts of stupidity at railroad grade crossings. Better enforcement could enhance safety.

  A truly steep fine, in the four to five digit range, including a mandatory suspended license is the only way I can think of to truly awaken more concern.

Till then, another ticket for many, is just another blackjack hit from life's deck.

If it can be afforded, the risk will be taken. Anyone familiar with "the parking games" near a busy downtown building knows this is very true. 

A night in the clink wouldn't hurt either...well, it wouldn't hurt us anyhow.

Maybe the people who break highway railroad grade crossing laws should go see Judge Judy.  She has one word for these.  STUPID!

Any use of technology to enhance public safety (i.e. red light cams) is viewed by the public as "unfair" and a "money grab." I guess it's only illegal if you get caught by a living breathing person, otherwise it's okay. Rail crossing cams with hefty 4-digit fines will have the effect of getting fresh blood into elected positions, for sure.