Dcc for three rail

Also can someone comment on this that I gleaned from another post:

1. You cannot run conventional engine (engine without a dcc board) on a track connected to a DCC system. If you do this, the motor in the conventional engine will make a high pitched him and eventually die. Therefore, take into account that EVERY engine that you want to run on DCC tracks has to have a DCC board in it.

This was a previous response to the deleted post  

I'm a BlueRail fan.

I did an Atlas engine with a BR board and Soundtraxx sound decoder which uses AC track power.

https://youtu.be/vxMJ2HHn6EU

I did 2 MTH F-7s using the PS3 board in DCC mode for sound.  They use battery.  I have a temp setup with RC batts now but will be doing something more permanent.

https://youtu.be/ismaxFdnhI

If you look at the Soundtraxx TSU-4400, it has all screw terminals.  No soldering.

Screw terminals on the BR board too.  No soldering.

If you like the use of a controller vs a phone, you can use any MFI game controller paired to your phone.  Dave Rees at BR did a video on this.

https://youtu.be/plinKYtuwrM

Feel free to contact me if you want to talk specifics.

Have Fun.

Ron

@davidbross posted:

Also can someone comment on this that I gleaned from another post:

1. You cannot run conventional engine (engine without a dcc board) on a track connected to a DCC system. If you do this, the motor in the conventional engine will make a high pitched him and eventually die. Therefore, take into account that EVERY engine that you want to run on DCC tracks has to have a DCC board in it.

I believe this statement is true most of the time. There may be some HO locomotives that can handle it. When running a conventional locomotive on the DCC system, the DCC system will vary the tops and bottoms of the square wave so that the locomotive will go forward or backward but it is true that most motors don't like the high frequency square wave the DCC system puts out. For me personally I would not do it.

You can get a NCE DCC decoder for $52 that will work in O scale but you will not have any sound. I would rather install that instead of running a conventional locomotive. I am a big proponent of DCC but as I always say there are pros and cons to every system. One of the cons of DCC is the system itself is expensive but one of the pros is you do have more options for decoders than you do with TMCC or DCS.

I watched your first video. Pretty cool and you have a nice layout. I am sure you know you won't be able to run DCC in the same block as TMCC,DCS, and Blue Rail unless it is a battery powered DCC decoder. I thought the sound in the Blue Rail unit was definitely better than the conventional engine.

I don't do battery power, and I hate using my phone for train control, but I do do 3R DCC.  I like the 10 amp NCE command system.  I got the wireless version so it is really not that different then running TMCC.  As for conventional locomotives on DCC track, yes, the motor will just wine while the loco just sits there.  As for TMCC/Legacy locomotives on DCC track, I have run Legacy and DCC on the same track, it doesn't hurt the locomotive itself, but I would not recommend it as electrocouplers can burn up.  TMCC locomotives on DCC will behave wildly, so avoid it at all costs. LionChief locomotives (Not LC+ or LC+2.0 as I have neither of these types.) work just fine on DCC.  The decoders I use are the factory installed MTH PS3 ones or ESU LokSound L in locomotives I convert to DCC.  Soldering will be required for any DCC conversions you do unless you can get a LokSound XL with screw terminals to fit, but that's a big decoder geared at G gauge.

... being English, I’m accustomed to DCC. Hornby experimented with an early version of sort-of DCC years ago but DCC proper, just blew it into the weeds and it’s long gone. Electronic control over here, starts and finishes with DCC. There was never any equivalent to PS over here.

As a dedicated DCC controller, I’d say the NEC Powercab is streets ahead of anything else as a proprietary system.

My main reservation about DCC is that it is focussed around high-end, full-features systems. My MMI locos, with stay-alive, full DCC and Tsunami Sound systems are really nice, but both ended up costing around $1400 so they should be!

1.  On the issue of DCC and tmcc/legacy burning out tmcc couplers, am I correct in assuming if the DCC system I choose is RF or Blue Tooth that it will not affect the TMCC/Legacy engines either in performance or in damaging couplers?

2.  Does it matter if I power the locos with AC rather than going to batteries as far as hurting my tmcc fleet?

It is misleading to a small extent to say the DCC decoders are very expensive.    Two things determine the cost of a decoder.    One is whether or not you want sound.   If  you do, yes it is a lot more expensive than just motor control.    The second thing to consider is current draw.    Like all electronics, the current through the decoder is very important.    The more current  you need, the larger the components, the larger the decoder, and the more expensive.    The $52 NCE decoder mentioned above I think is probably the D408SR model.   This is designed for high current draw.    It has a rating of 4 amps continuous, and the latest versions I think are rated at 10 amps stall.    This decoder will probably run any O scale loco from any era.    I am using them in older Max Grey imports that can draw 2-2.5 amps under load.   These are 10 drivered large locos with 50s era motor.

On the other hand I have newer models some even from the 1980s that draw less than one amp  under load.    I have 2 Sunset steamers from that era.    I found a Digitrax DH123 decoder for  under $20 that is rated at 1.5 amps continous and 2 amps stall.    I have used this decoder in a bunch of locos that have low current draw including some 2 rail, 2-motor diesels from MTH.   I have been able buy decoders at this rating for even less than $15

In both cases these are motor and lights only.   the 408 has outputs for 7 things (lights, smoke, whatever), as lo0ng as total output from the decoder is maximum 4 amps.     The 123 has only 2-3 - generally headlight and backup light and the maximum cannot exceed 2 amps.

If you put an ameter in series on either lead to the track and run the loco at 12-13V, the meter will show the draw.    You want to hold it so you get it under load and see what it does.   Then you can stall it so the wheels slip and see what you get.     Once you know what the loco draws, you can go shop for a decoder that has the features you want, and the current rating you need.

The info posted by Ron is very useful. The current increase in discussions of DCC is quite interesting. My introduction to DCC came about as a result of my prototype evaluation of the BlueRailDCC product which has been skillfully designed and performs well. If you have not tried out the new BlueRail product, you are missing out on one of most significant advances in model train technology.

@BOB WALKER posted:

If you have not tried out the new BlueRail product, you are missing out on one of most significant advances in model train technology.

Well said Bob.  I don't know a lot about DCC.  Not even sure you can call BlueRail a DCC product because it does DCC and a whole lot more.  And one does not have to purchase a DCC system to use it. 

As stated in my videos, I have one engine that was converted and uses AC track power.  I now have two more engines that run on battery power.

So DCS, Legacy, BlueRail AC and BlueRail batt all on the same track.

Fun indeed.

Ron

@davidbross posted:

1.  On the issue of DCC and tmcc/legacy burning out tmcc couplers, am I correct in assuming if the DCC system I choose is RF or Blue Tooth that it will not affect the TMCC/Legacy engines either in performance or in damaging couplers?

2.  Does it matter if I power the locos with AC rather than going to batteries as far as hurting my tmcc fleet?

1) It would be more correct to say if there is no DCC signal on the track you will be safe.  So if you do battery on train powered DCC you will be fine.  If you do track powered DCC then you will have issues with TMCC/Legacy.

2) The DCC track power is AC which is why it is possible to run Legacy on the same track.  It is the DCC signal that interferes with the TMCC/Legacy signal that causes issues with TMCC locomotives.

I have no experience with battery DCC, nor have any plans to ever dabble in it as I hate battery power for trains with a passion.  That's my personal choice and others are allowed to do as they want with their trains.  Bob and Ron above would be the guys you'd want to talk to about more battery information.  If you wish to run DCC trains at the same time on the same track as TMCC, then battery powering your DCC trains would seem to be the way to go.  I think DCC is a great system worth looking into, and I enjoying running DCC, so I have set my layout up with the ability to switch between DCC or TMCC/Legacy track power.

@sinclair posted:

2) The DCC track power is AC which is why it is possible to run Legacy on the same track.  It is the DCC signal that interferes with the TMCC/Legacy signal that causes issues with TMCC locomotives.

With BlueRail, the DCC signal does not go through the track.  It is Bluetooth from your phone or MFI controller to your engine.   So you can run BlueRail DCC on AC track power right along with your DCS and Legacy.

Batteries not required.

@Ron045 posted:

With BlueRail, the DCC signal does not go through the track.  It is Bluetooth from your phone or MFI controller to your engine.   So you can run BlueRail DCC on AC track power right along with your DCS and Legacy.

Batteries not required.

Ron. One of these concerns I have with Bluetooth is the range.  If I use Bluetooth to control Legacy, they lose signal across the room.

@davidbross posted:

Ron. One of these concerns I have with Bluetooth is the range.  If I use Bluetooth to control Legacy, they lose signal across the room.

The 5 amp board has a 75 foot range.  That is what I have or my 13 x 33 layout.  I have not had a problem while in the basement. The other day I went upstairs and then went out to the garage to get a beer, and I lost connection with 1 of 2 engines running.  As I walked back in the house the app beeped and I was re-connected without touching anything.  If you spend the extra $10, they have a 5 amp board with a 150 ft range.  That is popular with the outdoor folks.

Ron

Lionel uses an early version of Bluetooth. BlueRailTrains uses a later version with greatly increased range and data capacity. My range checks agree with Ron's.

Thanks to all that posted this.  I have run HO DCC with digitrax for a long time and was thinking after my purchase of a used O scale MTH GG-1 and planned O scale layout (at plywood and acquiring Ross swithes and flex track stage) that I would like to use DCC on my O scale and O-27 Lionel legacy engines.  This posting has great information and the You Tube videos are very cool.  Love 30th street station!  Great job capturing the look and feel.

Will investigate the options.  I know Bluetooth at least as of maybe 10 years ago had a short range low power and long range higher power mode.  Also putting the antenna right next to the plastic will load the antenna a bit and detune it (causing less range).  Same with parking the built in BT antenna next to metal.  I see that the Bluerail BT module manufacturer was acquired by Ublox and there are modules with UFL external antenna options.  That would certainly help with the diecast metal body for engines like my Lionel Steam Turbine if I convert it.

Happy new year and all the best for 2021!

For the record, there are three bluetooth based and two Wi-Fi based loco control systems. If you are concerned about bluetooth range (in my opinion, unfounded), there is always Wi-Fi or an RF based system as an option. Every bluetooth based product I have tested works quite well.