Derailment in Western Pa.

Here are some more photos.

I am glad it seems no one was injured.  I have a few co-workers who live around Vandergrift.

i take it ,it was on the conomaugh line being along the river.-jim

Okay - I know its not a huge part of the story, but did anyone else notice that they misspelled Pittsburgh in the NBC story? 

It's NBC, what would you expect?

Are you sure it wasn't MTHNBC?

If I recall, and in view of the derailed cars, this was an oil train derailment. The railroad industry has been lucky so far, but what happens when an oil train derails and explodes in a heavily populated urban area? Multiply the Megantic derailment's deaths by many multiples, and, perhaps, you have enough liabilty to bankrupt a major carrier. I suggested a while back, that oil trains should run through densely populated areas at reduced speed. I know that gums up the system - but the alternative, financially, and perhaps morally, are staggering to contemplate. And the idea of more heavily constructed tank cars seems a no-starter, as the additional tare weight will wreck the economics of the business. 

You know! I have to go back to what I've heard old timers say in the past, why do they build so close to the Railroad Tracks!  Business is bad enough, but business has to have the service, not unlike the refinery where I spent 40 years working, located in Eastern, Ky. I guess it's what comes first, the Railroad or the Egg. We're always going to have this problem, as long as society wants to be close to work and services....Brandy

I think if you will go back, read and look at all of the photos, you will plainly see that this is not an "OIL TRAIN"! It is merely a merchandise train that happens to be transporting some cars loaded with oil.

 

It seems that with what has been going on in the recent past, too many people now associate tank cars with oil. There is a one inch thick FRA emergency response guide out there listing all of the nasty stuff tank cars transport, not counting all of the goop that isn't nasty at all. Why don't we try to keep the sensationalism in check?

The train that derailed was 14G.  It is in fact a general merchandise train that operates from Pittsburgh (Conway) to Morrisville, PA (just north of Philadelphia).  Most of the cars that were involved in the derailment were carrying crude, but this was not a crude oil unit train (like the one that were involved in the accidents in Canada and North Dakota).

 

The derailment occurred near the town of Vandergrift, PA on the Conemaugh Line.

I do know there is a book out there which is a resonse guide for first resonders.  It can give one a general idea of what a common carrier has in its truck or car.  If you look at a car or truck, and has a haz-mat on board, there is usually a 4 digit number in the placard.  Look up that number in the response book.  There are some nasty chemicals traveling over out rail and road ystems.  And crude is one of the tamer of these substances!

Whether this was an oil train or not, does not negate the bigger issue of a catastrophic oil train derailment in a heavily populated area........and the potential catastrophic outcome for a particular carrier. That such an accident CAN occur has been demonstrated at Megantic. And I see actual "oil trains" traveling through the Chicago suburbs daily.

Anyone care to address the larger issue? And offer some thoughts on how to limit the consequences of such a derailment?

I think the larger question that needs to be address is the consumption of huge amounts of energy by our society.  The stuff would not be out there in pipelines and railcars if we weren't using it.  It was interesting to note no fire or explosion,  and no injuries.  A de-railed ethanol train here in the Beaver Valley a few years ago had the fire and explosion.   

I was hiking/camping in Vermont shortly after the Lac Megantic  tragedy, we talked with Canadians from Quebec who were familiar with the incident.  Best to let the courts sort through all the "what ifs", and "you should ofs"        

Mike CT

Mike - The difficulty of doing away with the internal combustion engine is that it is so darned efficient, relative to the alternatives. By all appearances , the world will be wed to oil fueled internal combustion engines for the foreseeable future. But oil trains are exploding today!

I've made the choice between my Chevy C20 (12 miles per gallon) and my Prius.  Works for me at $4/gal.  Maybe all of us need to consider the difference between 12 miles per gallon and at least 40 miles per gallon.  That would reduce the amount of energy in transit by at least 1/2 maybe 2/3rds. 

Remove 1/2 of the oil trains and the risk goes down considerably.

   

Gasoline consumption in this country has dropped to the point that our refiners are exporting large volumes of gasoline.  Even if we reduced our current consumption by half, I suspect the oil trains would continue to roll.  Gasoline exports are too lucrative to do away with.


Curt

Not to go OT (and you can email me if you prefer), but what other hybrids did you consider? I'll be replacing my 24 mpg 1999 Montana van AFTER the 2015 Prius comes out and I'm always open to advice. I want to look at the Ford C-Max and Lincoln MKZ also, but I'm leaning toward the new Prius assuming it lives up to expectations. We rented a 2010 and put 1,100 miles on it over a weekend to see how it handled our style of driving, etc. I was pleasantly surprised and got 46.5 mpg on mostly highway driving, but worry a little about reviews that tout how much more fun to the drive the C-Max and Sonata are.

 

I know the Prius is under-powered compared to the C-Max, Sonata, Optima and MKZ by some 50 hp, but the things the Prius has going for it are their track record, the consistency of their EPA estimates vs actual mpg and the hatchback design. We travel a lot, so ease of loading luggage, etc., is important to us.

 

My brother has a Sonata, so I have quite a bit of experience driving it. I personally think the Prius is smoother and I really don't notice the power difference. The Optima is very close to the Sonata and I find to Sonata difficult to enter/exit, a problem I didn't have in the Prius.

 

I'm only considering the MKZ because it might be more comfortable on our long trips. I've never been a fan of Lincoln or Cadillac and the specs give me pause. It's larger, though it does have slightly less front/rear headroom. Cargo space is the biggest drawback though at only 11 cf. However, if I'm going to pay upwards of $35,000 for a fully-loaded Prius, depending on options, I feel I owe it to myself to at least take a look at the MKZ for a similar price.

 

Also, I'd be interested in any advice you have on options. For example, I'm wondering if the solar-powered sunroof is worthwhile. I'm think it might have some value here in Phoenix, but I'm afraid it's just a gimmick.

 

A positive solution to the oil tank car is similar to the double hull on the sea going tankers.  Trinity Industries make them.  They also make other modern rail cars.  The double hull concept is a step in the right direction.

 

there was a reading heritage unit on that train I was waiting for in greensburg.  I was tracking it. 

BNSF is placing an order for 5000 new tank cars that exceed the AAR 2 year old safety sandards. These will be company-owned, as opposed to shipper-owned. CP and CN have indicated they will charge higher rates for shippers using cars that do not comply with current safety standards. 

I know trains entering the  Toronto Area with special dangerous commodities had to be inspected before entering and a speed restriction of (i forget 25 or 30MPH) and inspected every so many miles....  Heck that was  at least 25 years ago. I suppose it's great if you live in Toronto but what about the rest of us in small towns or cities  along the right of way. On the other hand  you can still have a pretty good wreck at 30 per.

Would like to hear from the professional railroaders on this site regarding what the dynamics are for slower speeds and derailments. Is there an optimum slow order speed that keeps the traffic fluid, say traveling in the midnight-5AM time frame, vs the potential severity of a derailment caused wreck? Is there a safe speed for transporting oil in urban areas?

Mark:

 

I'll establish the "benchmark" for any railroader comments concerning derailments at slower speeds. 

 

The new standard tank cars are resistant to derailment related breach of the shell only at speeds up to 24 miles per hour.  This has been confirmed in testing and I was in a meeting with the FRA last September where an official acknowledged these cars were subject to breach at derailment speeds in excess of 24 mph.

 

Another point, the crude oil shippers voluntarily began building tank cars to the new standard beginning with cars built after October 2011.

 

Last point, the AAR released a statement yesterday indicating that Class 1 railroads in the U.S. will shortly commit to reduced speed limits for crude oil trains transiting populated areas as well as additional mechanical inspections of crude oil trains. AAR also indicated the railroads would likely agree to a requirement that distributed power be placed at the rear of all crude oil trains to enhance braking.  Note this would apply ONLY to crude oil trains and not to ethanol or mixed consist freight trains.

 

Curt

The oil the Keystone will ship has its own issues.  You have do place a chemical with the crude to make the stuff flow.  So you have to add it in Canada, and take it out when it get to the refinery.

 

Even if Keystone is built, you will need oil trains and/or barges to carry all the crude south.

 

And, the Keystone may just be built to ND, and rail being used from the wel head.

Curt - Precise answer - extremely valuable! Let us hope that we will begin to see a cessation of disasterous oil train accidents, except occaisionly in more unpopulated locales where the trains can stretch their legs. The railroad industry has been getting a lot of bad press of late.

        Dominic - also interesting contribution.

This reminds me, I forgot to add the extra fuel tank to my Ford 450 I just bought, that big old dirty diesel eats it up the black gold quickly when you put the 4 wheel drive in gear to move that 22" tires that love to throw the virgen tundra into the sky, it is fun to watch those big tracter tires rip into that stuff and spit it out the back and tossing it up into the air, what did Einstein say two masses weighing approamatly the same cannot occuppy the same space and something got to give, which also reminds me, I got to get something to remove that critter that rapped around my front axle, stuipid critter stinking up my nice shinny crome and spoiling the Neon special lighting effect on the bottom of the truck, very cool! Cant wait to the weekend to have a little fun cant forget the sawed off and bruster my crossed eyed retarted pit bull and my John Deer train set. Gonna be a fun weekend!!!

Billy John Bob

Ok.  Today the official AAR press release came out and I will need to correct one comment I made in my post yesterday.  Any train with 20 or more carloads of crude oil will have either distributed power or a two way telemetry end of train device to improve braking.  This would include manifest freight trains carrying 20 or more carloads of crude oil.

 

Interestingly, the maximum speed at which the railroads have agreed to operate crude oil trains through urban high threat areas is 40 miles per hour. Based on the new standard tank car's resistance to breaching being applicable only at speeds less than 24 miles per hour, this maximum speed limitation would appear to be nothing more than "window dressing".

 

Additionally, the carefully crafted wording of the press release would seem to indicate regional railroads such as MMA (Lac Megantic) and AGR (Aliceville, AL) are not included in this agreement. 

 

Curt

well BNSF put the order in because keystone is slow to go. it will get built as they will go to court over it.  they cant stop it.  you can bore under wetlands and streams and protected forests as I have a 24" sunoco wet gas line going in western PA.  they bore the roads and streams, anything sensitive.  Dominion gas just put in a 24" gas line.  its not hard for them anymore.  its permitting, but oil and gas is exempt from NPDES.  they really cant stop.  if the gov's in the states want it to go like in PA, corbett made the PADEP move permits faster.  we review and approve these local county level and they build them in 1 season.  its so stupid to think this cant be built.  its safer than train.  BUt warren buffet will control the movement of oil.  he was opposed to all of the XL pipeline and got EPA and obama to try to use EPS to stop it, so he can make loot on the tanker car transport!  google it!

Any train with 20 or more carloads of crude oil will have either distributed power or a two way telemetry end of train device to improve braking.  This would include manifest freight trains carrying 20 or more carloads of crude oil.

 

I'm not sure what two way telemetry end of device is?    I never worked a job without a caboose but have seen lots of  end of train boxes. Is this something different other than measuring air pressure and the ability to put the train into emergency from the rear?

 

Seems to me most a lot of wrecks  are caused by track faults rather then equipment failure. Just my opinion,

It would seem that the only sensible thing for railroads to do would be to run oil trains at less then 24 mph in urban areas. No doubt that is not optimum economics, but  a disasterous wreck with high death count isn't too hot economics, either!

"Two-way telemetry" means that the head-end box (receiver) in the cab can also send a command to the EOT to dump the air at the rear of the train.  This allows the emergency application to be made from both ends of the train (automatic brake valve and EOT), resulting in a faster application and less slack-action.

Gregg:

The two way telemetry FRED allows a brake application to be made from both the front and the rear of a train simultaneously.

I'm really rather skeptical of this entire agreement.  Many oil trains are already operating with DPU's and the wayside detectors mentioned in the agreement are, for the most part, already in place along most heavily trafficked main lines.  And I've already noted the 40 mph restriction is practically worthless in terms of preventing breaching of a tank car in a derailment.

Curt

After owning a repair shop as long as i have, you wont be patting yourself on the back as much when you see how much those hybrid's will cost to repair as they get older. Any savings at the pump will be given to the dealer, plus alot more. Those of us who have normal cars see how much it cost to fix and how many times you have to bring back to the dealer for the same problem, now add more computers, more wire and congratulations you now have a real headache and large bill, if the knucklehead can even fix it. Have you seen just how much a battery is for those things? Some are well over a grand and there is multiple, last less than a conventional car. What about all the extra energy and oil used in factory's to produce those extra miles of wires and electronics inside? But in all reality i am glad people buy those things because it leaves me with more gas to burn at 3mpg in my hot rods. You'll never see me in one of those sewing machines. By the way my corvette gets 29mpg with 6 speed and 400hp and if i drove it nice i'd be getting over 30 and i can actually pass someone going uphill


       

Thanks Curt And Mike.... There were testing FREDs before I retired at the back of the caboose... I knew they could put the  train into emergency   at the rear from the head end but wasn't sure what else they could do.

 

The company was  also installing  walkways on all the large  trestles and bridges. We could see it coming... No cabooses. 

Can FRED feel   smell and see.   You'd be surprised what you see in complete darkness especially if anything is dragging, Chains , strapping whatever...... oops Off topic again...