Probably 4449 pulled freight but very seldomly. Did any Daylight Southern Pacific steam engine pull freight? I would like to know if it is prototypical. Thanks
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Yes, lots of times, especially after many diesels began arriving. In fact, there was a timetable scheduled second class train on the Coast Route, that handled reefers & overnight boxcars, that usually had a GS class 4-8-4 has motive power.
SDIV Tim posted:Did any Daylight Southern Pacific steam engine pull freight? Thanks
Fun question. There are photos of black GS class steamers pulling freight, but other that 4449 in its second life I have not seen one of a Daylight painted steamer pulling freight. Need to do a web search.
ADDED: Found this on the web under 4449's history, which doesn't mean its right. Does indicate the engines were painted black before going to freight service. "In 1955, after being one of the last few Daylight steam engines in Daylight livery, 4449 was painted black and silver and its side skirting (a streamlining feature of the Daylight steam engines) was removed due to dieselization of the Coast Daylight in January of that year. 4449 was then assigned to Southern Pacific's San Joaquin Valley line, occasionally pulling passenger trains such as the San Joaquin Daylight between Oakland and Bakersfield as well as fast freight and helper service."
CAPPilot posted:SDIV Tim posted:Did any Daylight Southern Pacific steam engine pull freight? Thanks
Fun question. There are photos of black GS class steamers pulling freight, but other that 4449 in its second life I have not seen one of a Daylight painted steamer pulling freight. Need to do a web search.
Another good source book would be "Daylight Steam Locomotives of the Southern Pacific" By Robert J. Church.
My Daylight Cab-Forward does. Does that count 
AC9 rules......freight and passenger !
EscapeRocks posted:My Daylight Cab-Forward does. Does that count
Certainly does, at least on your railroad. Great looking engine!
GS supposedly stood for "General Service", although the GS series locos seemed to be used mostly for passenger service during their prime years, before diesel power. The "Daylight" color scheme was reserved for use on premier passenger trains. It would be interesting to see if someone can find an authentic vintage photo of a red-and-orange "Daylight" GS loco pulling a freight train.
Ace posted:GS supposedly stood for "General Service",
Not originally. When developed, in the late 1930s, the Southern Pacific designated the first 4-8-4 locomotives for the new inaugurated Daylight passenger service, as "Golden State" class. Continued increases in ridership on the Daylight passenger trains, necessitated additional purchases of the Lima GS class locomotives, through 1941. During WWII, the SP still needed additional 4-8-4 locomotives, however upon attempting to purchase additional locomotives, the War Production Board explained that absolutely NO PASSENGER locomotives were allowed to be built, either steam or diesel. The SP attempted to claim the the GS-4/GS-5 class locomotives were indeed true "General Service" locomotives, however the WPB would not be fooled by SP's claims, responding that General Service locomotives did NOT have 80" diameter drive wheels!
Thus, the additional Lime GS-6 class 4-8-4s purchased by SP had "only" 74" diameter drive wheels, making THEM truly "General Service" 4-8-4s.
although the GS series locos seemed to be used mostly for passenger service during their prime years, before diesel power. The "Daylight" color scheme was reserved for use on premier passenger trains. It would be interesting to see if someone can find an authentic vintage photo of a red-and-orange "Daylight" GS loco pulling a freight train.
OK here goes, somewhere in my collection I have a photo showing a Daylight Demonstration train. The paint scheme was tested as a possible means of identifying 'special' trains such as piggy back, tank trains, etc. The entire demonstration train was painted in the Daylight scheme, freight and passenger, caboose and engine. The black and silver GS4's were called 'war babies' because of war rationing there was no fancy paint schemes. These pulled passengers and freight. Several of SP's branches also had other engines painted in Daylight schemes that pulled whatever they were assigned to pull. For the most part though if it was a GS4 it was probably pulling a passenger train. Perfectly clear right? Russ
The GSs weren't painted black for freight service as such, but the SP removed the side skirting and then painted them black. Before that, they'd also done some things like putting shields so the firebox glow couldn't be seen from the side and 'blackout' covers for the headlights due to wartime fears that submarines offshore would be able to see the trains going along the coast line or by Japanese planes above (which was a product of 'war nerves', though it was later found that the Germans in 1942 and 43 were using the glow from cities to put targeted ships in silhouette to torpedo them). The GS-6s were always black and never had the skirting added at all. They also painted over the metal 'stripes' on the GS-4 and 5 pilots in silver paint.
Here's a GS-4 pulling a passenger run in that configuration, which they pretty much kept until they day they each quit running for good:
Hot Water posted:Ace posted:GS supposedly stood for "General Service" ...
Not originally. When developed, in the late 1930s, the Southern Pacific designated the first 4-8-4 locomotives for the new inaugurated Daylight passenger service, as "Golden State" class. Continued increases in ridership on the Daylight passenger trains, necessitated additional purchases of the Lima GS class locomotives, through 1941. During WWII, the SP still needed additional 4-8-4 locomotives, however upon attempting to purchase additional locomotives, the War Production Board explained that absolutely NO PASSENGER locomotives were allowed to be built, either steam or diesel. The SP attempted to claim the the GS-4/GS-5 class locomotives were indeed true "General Service" locomotives, however the WPB would not be fooled by SP's claims, responding that General Service locomotives did NOT have 80" diameter drive wheels!
Thus, the additional Lime GS-6 class 4-8-4s purchased by SP had "only" 74" diameter drive wheels, making THEM truly "General Service" 4-8-4s.
That's an interesting detail, Thank You for the explanation. Western Pacific also got some of the war-era GS-6 locos.
I understand the GS-5 class had roller bearings. It's too bad one of those wasn't restored instead of GS-4 #4449 ?
Yep, only 2 GS-5s were made. They can be spotted from good photos by how the driver centers were painted. Friction bearing-equipped SP locos had white stars painted in the wheel centers, and I think roller bearing drivers were painted with a circle. But that's impossible to spot in photos where the loco is in motion.
p51 posted:Yep, only 2 GS-5s were made. They can be spotted from good photos by how the driver centers were painted. Friction bearing-equipped SP locos had white stars painted in the wheel centers, and I think roller bearing drivers were painted with a circle. But that's impossible to spot in photos where the loco is in motion.
Those are interesting details ! Which I might have known at one time but forgot !
The Western Pacific did not want the GS-6 steam locomotives, they had to take them because they could not get diesels during the war. The WP had started to dieselize in the late 1930s. As soon as they could get diesels after the war their GS-6 locos were sold to the SP who used them for parts. WP retained some of the tenders to use as water cars. At least one of the tenders was equipped with wheel hub mounted roller bearings on a conventional 7 X 14 plain bearing axle. After rerailing one of these tenders many years ago, I opened the journal box lids to watch the journals to insure everything was back in place and working properly. Much to my surprise when the tender first started to move the axle did not turn, but the wheels were turning. After a little research I found that this was a product marketed by ASF for a while starting about 1940.
The GS-6 locomotives were seen pulling the California Zepher consist prior to the delivery of the F-3 diesels. The equipment was used on the Exposition Flyer until the Zepher was ready to be launched. The Zepher replaced the Exposition Flyer.
To be correct, the Western Pacific had GS-64 class 4-8-4s.
Hot Water posted:Ace posted:GS supposedly stood for "General Service",
Not originally. When developed, in the late 1930s, the Southern Pacific designated the first 4-8-4 locomotives for the new inaugurated Daylight passenger service, as "Golden State" class. Continued increases in ridership on the Daylight passenger trains, necessitated additional purchases of the Lima GS class locomotives, through 1941. During WWII, the SP still needed additional 4-8-4 locomotives, however upon attempting to purchase additional locomotives, the War Production Board explained that absolutely NO PASSENGER locomotives were allowed to be built, either steam or diesel. The SP attempted to claim the the GS-4/GS-5 class locomotives were indeed true "General Service" locomotives, however the WPB would not be fooled by SP's claims, responding that General Service locomotives did NOT have 80" diameter drive wheels!
Thus, the additional Lime GS-6 class 4-8-4s purchased by SP had "only" 74" diameter drive wheels, making THEM truly "General Service" 4-8-4s.
although the GS series locos seemed to be used mostly for passenger service during their prime years, before diesel power. The "Daylight" color scheme was reserved for use on premier passenger trains. It would be interesting to see if someone can find an authentic vintage photo of a red-and-orange "Daylight" GS loco pulling a freight train.
The comment by the WPB about 80" drivers on the SP 4-8-4's is interesting, because that didn't stop the Union Pacific from getting its FEF-3 class 4-8-4's, and Santa Fe's 2900 class 4-8-4's both of which had 80" drivers. Also, Northern Pacific's A-5 class had 77" drivers, which as still pretty big.
Stuart
Stuart posted:Hot Water posted:Ace posted:GS supposedly stood for "General Service",
Not originally. When developed, in the late 1930s, the Southern Pacific designated the first 4-8-4 locomotives for the new inaugurated Daylight passenger service, as "Golden State" class. Continued increases in ridership on the Daylight passenger trains, necessitated additional purchases of the Lima GS class locomotives, through 1941. During WWII, the SP still needed additional 4-8-4 locomotives, however upon attempting to purchase additional locomotives, the War Production Board explained that absolutely NO PASSENGER locomotives were allowed to be built, either steam or diesel. The SP attempted to claim the the GS-4/GS-5 class locomotives were indeed true "General Service" locomotives, however the WPB would not be fooled by SP's claims, responding that General Service locomotives did NOT have 80" diameter drive wheels!
Thus, the additional Lime GS-6 class 4-8-4s purchased by SP had "only" 74" diameter drive wheels, making THEM truly "General Service" 4-8-4s.
although the GS series locos seemed to be used mostly for passenger service during their prime years, before diesel power. The "Daylight" color scheme was reserved for use on premier passenger trains. It would be interesting to see if someone can find an authentic vintage photo of a red-and-orange "Daylight" GS loco pulling a freight train.
The comment by the WPB about 80" drivers on the SP 4-8-4's is interesting, because that didn't stop the Union Pacific from getting its FEF-3 class 4-8-4's, and Santa Fe's 2900 class 4-8-4's both of which had 80" drivers. Also, Northern Pacific's A-5 class had 77" drivers, which as still pretty big.
Stuart
I was waiting for someone to bring up the UP and Santa Fe exceptions to the WPB's "passenger locomotive restriction". The reason that both the Santa Fe and the UP received "exemptions" was due to their heavy troop movements to the west coast in order to support the War in the Pacific. No other railroads were permitted to purchase true "passenger locomotives" from ANY builder, including EMD.
jaygee posted:AC9 rules......freight and passenger !
Unfortunately, while semi-streamlined, the AC-9's were never, to the best of my knowledge, painted in Daylight colors.(which is what the OP is asking about, Daylights pulling Freight)
I DO agree with you about the AC-9's Rule, The AC-9 and the H-7(former C&O sold to UP) are tied as my favorite O Scale models. It is too bad that SP never applied Daylight colors to any of the AC-9's, I think that would have Looked GREAT
I Hope to some day make up for SP's mistake and have an O scale model custom painted in Daylight colors, SP never did it, but they SHOULD have.
Doug
challenger3980 posted:It is too bad that SP never applied Daylight colors to any of the AC-9's, I think that would have Looked GREAT
I agree fully there.
Sheesh, this was just screaming for some red and orange. Even the pilot looks just like a GS one!
OK, both ATSF and UP went to Los Angeles. ATSF went to the Bay Area via the Valley. But for a Union Pacific troop train to reach the Bay Area, that train had to go onto the SP or WP. Or was the Bay Area was not a "big" port for troops going to to the Pacific Theater?
Also, I think the WPB considered ATSF and UP "High Speed" roads overall, something SP could not claim.
I thought that there is some footage of a Daylight painted GS pulling freight in one of the dvds that I have, I'll have to check. I'm probably wrong but I'll check anyhow.
Daylight locomotives? That would be GS4/5s, PAs and E7/8/9s. Also SSW and TNO FP7s. Can't find a single reference to that effect.
Not including the above repowered U25s above or the SD44 which did.
A couple of thoughts:
- SP had a long-standing policy of using passenger engines (especially but not exclusively from the Peninsula commute service) on Bay Area freight drags on weekends. It is a good possibility that at least one Daylight-painted engine from a GS class was roped into a round trip to Stockton or Sacramento (or across the bay via the Dumbarton bridge) on a weekend. Photographic confirmation would be ideal, but I am going to believe that it happened, because, when necessary to clean out Bayshore or Oakland on the weekend, the freight engines that left on Friday and Saturday had not all returned, and, in spite of any policies that may have treated Daylight engines differently than other steam power, there was probably at least one instance in which there was no other engine available and the yard had to be cleaned out to make room for trains due to arrive. Certainly, after the engines lost their skirting, they made trips on freight. And, after shopping, they likely made at least one break-in trip on freight while wearing Daylight colors. It would have been insane to send any engine fresh from a major shopping on a good passenger train without first having broken it in by making at least one trip on a low-priority train.
- As to SP not being a fast railroad, well, yes, it did have a lot of mountain territory in California, but The San Joaquin Daylight flew down the valley to Bakersfield. I believe SP once had Automatic Train Stop on the double track west of Sacramento and maybe further east on the Overland Route. The Overland, Sunset, and Golden State routes once sported passenger limiteds that made competitive running times against Union Pacific and Santa Fe. Late in the Russel or early Biaggini era, long after steam was gone, SP reduced passenger train maximum speeds to 70 MPH, but, at one time it did run them faster -- 79 MPH for certain, and perhaps faster in places. Fast may not be the reputation, but, in my own opinion, SP held its own before the 70 MPH slowdown. That's only my opinion; yours may be different.
p51 posted:Friction bearing-equipped SP locos had white stars painted in the wheel centers, and I think roller bearing drivers were painted with a circle.
Actually, the roller bearing engines' drivers were painted with a series of dots around the hubs--I suppose that would look like a circle at speed.
smd4 posted:p51 posted:Friction bearing-equipped SP locos had white stars painted in the wheel centers, and I think roller bearing drivers were painted with a circle.
Actually, the roller bearing engines' drivers were painted with a series of dots around the hubs--I suppose that would look like a circle at speed.
1) The correct term is "plain bearings", NOT "friction bearings".
2) The standard grease block lubricated plain bearings, on the SP steam power, had no markings on the drive wheel centers.
3) The SP developed and patented, babbitted crown bearings with pressure fed oil lubrication, had the white stars painted on the drive wheel hollow axle centers.
4) The two GS-5 locomotives (the only two in the history of SP) equipped with roller bearings on all axles (one with Timken the other with SKF) had the rounded "nubbins" around the hollow axle centers.
