Elmers School Glue - 16 oz bottles no longer dispense glue/water mixture for ballasting

Funny...I was ballasting all weekend. I use an over sized eye dropper, the kind used to give babies medicine if that helps. No clogging at all. I'm also using a 50/50 Elmers and water mixture with a few drops of dish detergent. I pour the mixture in a cup and then draw it out with the dropper. It's a slow process but I should be done a few weeks after York when I pick up the last of the ballast needed from Scenic Express. My layout is 24 x 14 with 5 tracks, switches, sidings and a tall roadbed underneath. It's been an arduous process but looks good. Sorry if I got off topic. Your post came at the right time! 

Note that Elmer's School Glue and Elmer's Glue-All are NOT the same product.  School glue is "goopier" and is not water soluble.  Once it dries, wetting it will not soften it.  Glue-All mixes well with water and ballast glued with it can be easily removed by wetting it again.

Elmer's Glue-All has been my go-to ballast glue (1 part glue to 4 parts water) for over 40 years.

Bob posted:

Note that Elmer's School Glue and Elmer's Glue-All are NOT the same product.  School glue is "goopier" and is not water soluble.  Once it dries, wetting it will not soften it.  Glue-All mixes well with water and ballast glued with it can be easily removed by wetting it again.

Elmer's Glue-All has been my go-to ballast glue (1 part glue to 4 parts water) for over 40 years.

Elmer's School Glue and Elmer's Glue-All are NOT the same product?  That I can believe.

But Elmer's School Glue NOT water soluble?  I find that rather hard to believe.  I would think there would be a lot of mad parents if they couldn't wash the dried glue out of their kids clothes!

Unless Elmer's is buying cheap white glue from China, not realizing that it's NOT being produced to specifications?  Or some other problem, perhaps?

It is the other way around. Elmer's School Glue is always water soluble and easy clean once set. 

Elmer's Glue-All becomes more much more water resistant (but not immune) to water. 

One key to clean up is room temperature or cool water, not hot or warm water which causes it to set differently and fast too.

I ditto the above comments.

I also have ballasted 100's of feet of Gargraves with the 50/50 mix of Elmers Glue-all and water with a few drops of dish soap squeezed in to help cut down the surface tension of the mixture. I also use the same mix for all my scenery.

I never used "School Glue" for all the reasons above. In my area during the last few years, the "School Glue" in gallon size is much more easily obtainable than "Glue-all". I can still find the gallon size of "Glue-all" at Lowes or on-line.

Donald

I'll be a Monkey's Uncle... here I thought Elmers changed the formulation of their white glue...I saw the gallon size white Elmer's glue at WalMart and bought it, having bought many gallons of white glue over the years I never noticed different products of Elmers white glue!

I just checked my latest gallon, it is "School Glue." I guess this explains the greater viscosity - even after cutting it. I tell you guys, that last 8 feet of track was the most challenging and PITA 8 feet of track to ballast! If I had to do the rest of my layout that way I might be done by the turn of the century.

I could've sworn WalMart sold the Glue All just a year or two ago. Why the hell do they need two different kinds of white non toxic glue? I mean, I understand the need for carpenters glue, which is yellow and greater bonding strength, but two non toxic white glues? Which one is the variety that isn't water soluble after dried?

I guess I'll cut it even more and see how well it flows. Meanwhile, I'll check Lowes for Glue All.

Using an eyedropper sounds tedious. I thought using the 16 oz. glue bottles was tedious, lol.

I found an outdated French's Mustard bottle in the back of the refrigerator...if I can get the mustard smell out it may be ideal due to larger orifice. Any ideas on what would clean mustard residue? What else are you guys using for application?

Hershey's Syrup.

Well, I can't believe I just watched a video on the differences of Elmers white glue varieties, and fwiw, from a Google search:

"What is the difference between Elmer's School Glue and Elmer's Glue All?

The main difference is that when the school glue dries more of it can be removed "in the wash" than the glue all. The school glue is a lighter, more water soluble glue even after drying. Most of the glue all will remain after it dries. Both are safe and non-toxic."

I just checked mine and I have the glue-all. Never knew there were two types..go figure

Paul Kallus posted:

I'll be a Monkey's Uncle... here I thought Elmers changed the formulation of their white glue...I saw the gallon size white Elmer's glue at WalMart and bought it, having bought many gallons of white glue over the years I never noticed different products of Elmers white glue!

I just checked my latest gallon, it is "School Glue." I guess this explains the greater viscosity - even after cutting it. I tell you guys, that last 8 feet of track was the most challenging and PITA 8 feet of track to ballast! If I had to do the rest of my layout that way I might be done by the turn of the century.

I could've sworn WalMart sold the Glue All just a year or two ago. Why the hell do they need two different kinds of white non toxic glue? I mean, I understand the need for carpenters glue, which is yellow and greater bonding strength, but two non toxic white glues? Which one is the variety that isn't water soluble after dried?

I guess I'll cut it even more and see how well it flows. Meanwhile, I'll check Lowes for Glue All.

Using an eyedropper sounds tedious. I thought using the 16 oz. glue bottles was tedious, lol.

I found an outdated French's Mustard bottle in the back of the refrigerator...if I can get the mustard smell out it may be ideal due to larger orifice. Any ideas on what would clean mustard residue? What else are you guys using for application?

Yep Paul, I almost got caught in the same trap with the glue. "Glue All" used to be available everywhere around here. Now most of the Craft places as well as some of the big box stores switched to "School Glue" in the gallon size over the last year or two.

Concerning the applicator...just keep using your 16oz size with the thinned mixture if you are switching back to "Glue All". I have at least 6 of them I have used for over 20 years and they all rinse out clean and do not wear out.

If you want a bigger opening to use the school glue, try filling the squeeze bottles with real hot water and some dish soap and let them sit overnight. That should clean out any left over residue. They may still have a scent but should not effect the usage.

Have fun with the ballast!

Donald

Thanks, Don. Ballasting is slow process but IMO the look is so much neater. BTW: I am using Brennan's ballast, very nice stuff.

John, I'd rather my ballast smell like Hershey's chocolate syrup than mustard

Has anyone used the Elmers clear?

My understanding is that the School glue doesn't dry clear and the Glue All does.

Paul Kallus posted:

Thanks, Don. Ballasting is slow process but IMO the look is so much neater. BTW: I am using Brennan's ballast, very nice stuff.

John, I'd rather my ballast smell like Hershey's chocolate syrup than mustard

Hey Paul. Good choice on the ballast. Dennis Brennan's is also my choice for the best available! Post some pics please when you can. I would like to see the track.

I posted one of mine with the ballast and ROSS track.

Donald

Go with the "Elmer's Glue-All"...(forget the Elmer's School Glue)...

Howard

www.littleglitterhouses.com

Actually, Elmer's makes many kinds of glue. In addition to Glue-All and School Glue, other examples include Tacky Glue, Craft Bond Wood Glue, Carpenter's Wood Glue, Washable Clear Glue, and that's just the white glues.

Some of the variants may be mostly marketing, but they all have different properties and are all useful for different purposes. Personally, for ballast, I think the degree of water dilution is more important than the exact glue. Also, my belief is that pre-treating with a mist of wet-water is more effective than adding the surfacant to the glue mixture. I could be wrong, though.

Hi-tech ballast spread and glue machine. Unfortunately starting to ballast a curve that is to be removed for a future sawmill and logging spur. A long reach scenario instead of a planned corner pop-up. (see 2010 photo below).

With sawdust

@Paul Kallus

I'd try vinegar to clean mustard crusties if soap and water doesn't do it.

(an ingredient too)

I've used no-name Dollar store white glue diluted; but for ground cover, not for ballast.   I didn't notice a difference.

Very nice work Don and Dewey. Like Dewey, I use the sophisticated method  BTW: how did you guys weather your tracks and what paint did you use, prior to application with spray paint outside? I am on the fence with weathering, of course its a bit late now. I suppose I could one day buy an air brush and compressor, but that'd be a ways away.

Pete: thanks for the tips. I also use the wet water from spray container prior to applying glue/water mixture.

Here's a picture of the various Elmer's white glues ~ recall I found all this out by accident as I was under the assumption there was only one Elmers white glue. Both glues were cut to about 50/50. First picture is of School Glue ballasted section - 2nd is of Glue All section that I did last year.

Something amazed me today - the School Glue ballasted section is not completely dry after 24 hours later - whereas in past "Glue All" ballasting sessions, after 24 hours it was completely set-up like concrete. This leads me to believe that the School Glue is more water soluble than the Glue All. Both glues leave no residue that I can see.

Tomorrow, I am going to Lowes to see if they carry the Glue All. If so, I'll buy a gallon. I'll then use the School Glue for scenery. If they don't have it, then I'll just use the School Glue and cut it to maybe 40/60 or whatever flows better.

I found lowes a good source for the 128 oz jug of glue all. about $15.

Elmer's Glue-All seems to be a tried & proven method.  That's what I use for most ballast and turf work.  I've heard some stories in the past about school glues (cheap dollar store varieties) drying with a "sheen", or a semi-gloss.  Don't know if Elmer's School Glue would do this, as I haven't ever tried it.  But a sheen is definitely NOT what most modelers would want for their scenery applications.

Thanks, Rich, I hope my Lowes has it in stock.

FWIW: I compared the instructions for both School Glue and Glue All: they're exactly the same except School Glue has a clean-up of soaking in 10 minutes cold water whereas Glue All said to wipe down before it sets. This leads me to believe School Glue would be easier to dissolve glued-down ballast. Note: on my last layout I found denatured alcohol worked best for this, and I was able to salvage all my Ross switches and most Ross track. The Gargraves track didn't fair as well and had to throw most of it out. 

3 rail 2 nice tree work

Hey Paul. That ballast job looks good. Very neat, just the way I like it!

Thanks for the compliment Marty....I made those trees almost 20 years ago and now they live on their 3rd layout. They are getting a bit brittle but once planted, I try not to touch them.

Donald

Mixed Freight posted:

Elmer's Glue-All seems to be a tried & proven method.  That's what I use for most ballast and turf work.  I've heard some stories in the past about school glues (cheap dollar store varieties) drying with a "sheen", or a semi-gloss.  Don't know if Elmer's School Glue would do this, as I haven't ever tried it.  But a sheen is definitely NOT what most modelers would want for their scenery applications.

I've heard the same stories about "sheen" and clarity regarding the School glue.   Lowes is my local source for the gallon jug of the "Glue All".  The craft stores in my area carry Elmer's but it's the School glue.

Paul Kallus posted:

Very nice work Don and Dewey. Like Dewey, I use the sophisticated method  BTW: how did you guys weather your tracks and what paint did you use, prior to application with spray paint outside? I am on the fence with weathering, of course its a bit late now. I suppose I could one day buy an air brush and compressor, but that'd be a ways away.

 

 

Hey Paul. I "weather" all my track before ballast. I used to like to play with my air brush but now that I am old, I just use a spray can from the hardware store. I prefer the "camo" colors since they dry with a very flat finish. I use a dark brown, black and a little olive green thrown in. Nothing fancy, everything (ties included) gets a solid coat of the brown and then I hit it with the black followed by just a little olive green in spots.

If possible, I try to spray everything out in the shop or just outside on saw horses. However, on my new layout, I just sprayed most of it in place down in my basement. I never did a lot at one time and always had sufficient ventilation.

Before the paint dries, I wipe off the top of the rails with an old t-short and either Acetone or Lacquer Thinner.

I will stress again. I only would do a little at a time indoors and wear gloves and a mask with ventilation.

I have over 1000 feet that I painted!

I also use Dennis' ballast so the different colors of the stone go a long way to break up the monotone color of gray. If I want it a little darker or showing more age, I spray it with alcohol and an India ink solution. Just a little at a time to gauge the effect.

Donald

Mixed Freight posted:

Elmer's Glue-All seems to be a tried & proven method.  That's what I use for most ballast and turf work.  I've heard some stories in the past about school glues (cheap dollar store varieties) drying with a "sheen", or a semi-gloss.  Don't know if Elmer's School Glue would do this, as I haven't ever tried it.  But a sheen is definitely NOT what most modelers would want for their scenery applications.

Don't count out tinplaters - we like almost everything shiny!

If you have any kids/grand-kids you can always use the "School Glue" to make the very popular GAK (aka Flubber)

_{Waste not... want not}

jhz563 posted:

Mixed Freight posted:

Elmer's Glue-All seems to be a tried & proven method.  That's what I use for most ballast and turf work.  I've heard some stories in the past about school glues (cheap dollar store varieties) drying with a "sheen", or a semi-gloss.  Don't know if Elmer's School Glue would do this, as I haven't ever tried it.  But a sheen is definitely NOT what most modelers would want for their scenery applications.

Don't count out tinplaters - we like almost everything shiny!

Notice I said "most".  I was thinkin' of ya'.  

As I mentioned earlier, there is no sheen or gloss with the School Glue that I could tell.

Just speculation, but I wonder if those with "sheen" problems might be skipping or mishandling the "wet water" step. This can cause the glue to sit on the surface rather than getting absorbed among the granules.

I buy what ever cheap white glue I can find,  Elmer's, generic, Walmart, Dollar Store.  Mix the glue and water with a few drops of dish soap in a plastic yogurt cup.  Spread the ballast over the track, spray with alcohol/ water mix, then apply glue mix with  one of those medicine droppers.  After the glue sets up, the ballast is quite firm. 

Work in Progress

Steve

My adventures in Elmer's glue continue... from my days in the Cub Scouts and Sunday School with arts & crafts, getting glue all over myself and the projects, to middle-age and gluing scenery and ballast, and still making a mess. I am still shaking my head on the different varities of Elmer's white glue, who the heck would've ever thought. I always thought there was just one Elmers white glue, to me it's as American as apple pie and Chevorolet.

I bought a gallon of the Glue All at Lowes and began a ballasting session last night. The difference in viscosity is amazing, one is like frozen molasses in winter and one flows like 30-w motor oil.

I still encounter occassional clogs with the Glue All at 50/50 mix, not as bad as School Glue though. I am using a 16 oz. Glue All dispenser - which BTW are very hard to find.

FWIW: for other basement dwellers, here's a tip I learned from an old modeler years ago. As ballasting results in tracks getting wet, after the glue dries I take cloths and q-tips and wipe down the rails with Wahl Clipper oil. I let the oil sit for awhile and then wipe off. Its a super light-weight machine oil and protects the tracks from corrosion and removes any glue film that would block conductivity. It also increases electrical conductivity between train wheels and rollers and track.