EMD Closes London

Well now, does THAT really surprise anyone? The Canadian Auto Workers Unionare on strike/locked out for even higher and more ridiculous wages. Cat already told the CAW, way back last year, that they, CAT, were opening a new plant in Muncie, IND, and would no longer stand for the outlandish demands that the CAW were making.

So,,,,another case of "win the battle, and loose the war" for the Canadian Auto Workers Union!

I am not surprised myself.  The question was:  shen?

This is not a shocker....they should have definetly seen the writing on the wall.

When CAT bought EMD, they said they'd close London. Where's the outrage from the Canadian government? too busy trying to bully a pipeline approval from the US.

More than likely the Canadian Government is too embarrassed by the idiotic actions of the CAW to be outraged. Stupid is as stupid does...

As for the pipeline, it should already have been approved. 

So techie, do you sit on the board of CAT or do you have direct access to the CEO's office?  I sure didn't read or hear anything about CAT "closing the London facility" when CAT, actually Progress Rail, originally purchased EMD.

 Our Government does not get involved with unions, it seems. It is just economics.

As for the illusion of "bullying" the US government to build another pipeline LOL!

 Our Alberta government respects the right not to interfere with the US process and our Premier has chosen NOT to be involved. There are already a bunch of pipelines crisscrossing the US. Keystone will just make the additional product cheaper to transport to the US.

Al

Well, you can have Tank-Train for the oil, and EMD's powering it!

Hotwater, I don't remember this being the case at all.  Did not CAT lock out the union members (leading to the strike vote) because the union employees refused a pay cut from $30 to $15 an hour and the elimation of their pension plan?

One would have to think that CAT had planned on closing the London plant.  CAT has been in many union battles in the past, and one would have to think they knew exactly what the projected outcome would be.

Jim 

I wonder how long now before the Muncie plant get up to full production.  Anyone know?

It is really difficult to get up any sympathy for union folks who don't realize that the great exodus of jobs overseas is just as much their fault as anyone else's.  Their leaders have to do what the members want, and in too many cases this is "government by who can shout the loudest" rather than government by anyone's intelligence.  They don't realize that every company is in a world market and has to compete there.  They complain about "cheap foreign labor".  This complaint may be valid, but it doesn't change the facts.

EdK 

Ed, how far can this "take it leave it" m.o. go?  Are we to revert to the pre-New Deal times, when workers had no rights at all, and companies treated them as they saw fit?  Someone over on Trainorders stated that $16 an hr. today will not provide for a decent standard of living.  Remove all the deductions from the paycheck, and what have you left, either Canadian or American?  Everyone has to give some, but almost all of the give is being expected to come from the employees, while the companies pad their profits, and many firms refuse to re- invest those funds, saying "the times are too uncertain."  These are the same folks who blather endlessly about the wonders of the Free Market System, but won't put their dollars where their rhetoric is. 

Jim - we are where we are with this system because for many years the unions had their own way; if an employer wasn't compliant to their demands, they had no qualms at all about going to their congressman or senator and having political pressure applied so that they could get what they wanted.  I don't know that anyone wants to go back to the turn of the twentieth century labor relations, but the pendulum has swung so far the union's way that any evidence of it swinging back is looked upon with horror.

The history of their intransigence in the railroad field is clear and obvious.  Their getting what they wanted for so many years is obvious, and it didn't start the other way until the BofLF&E decided that firemen were needed on diesels and took such a stand that their union was eventually eliminated.  Your contention about $16 per hour not being enough to live on is fatuous.  If the employer can't produce his products and price them competively, who do you propose should make up the difference?  You invoke the class warfare argument, but is it valid?  Do you know what the company's costs are?  If you know, do you care?  The union attitude has always been, at least as long as I've been involved in industry (longer than I care to admit) that the company can always cut something else in order to give the union guys what they want.  If necessary, they should reduce their profit margin to zero.

Come on, Jim.  That doesn't work.  And no anti-company rhetoric is ever going to make it work.

EdK

Edited by the Webmaster to fix the quote formatting.

Do you mean additional product cheaper to transport to market, THROUGH the US?

A pipeline from Canada through the US to Texas ports is explicitly for export use only, not distribution within the US.  If they wanted to distribute it in the US, all they would need to do is send it to the nearest refinery, or population center (like Chicago).  How about the one in North Dakota, or maybe the two in Minnesota, or northern Wisconsin?  Obviously the four in Montana are WAY too far away...

Oh, and as for Progress Rail, if you look at the Trains.com Mobile News Wire, they had 4000 people show up for a job fair in Muncie.

If I was closer, I'd be there, too.

My post is not intended to be a pro-union or anti-union one, but there sure seems to be a lot of union bashing that goes on with this forum.

Union history is of no relevance to this thread.  The simple fact is that Cat wanted to pay $16 an hour for wages at this plant with no pension.  The CAW apparently would not accept this wage cut. 

Neither side is stupid, nor nieve.  Seems to me they both knew what the outcome would be when CAT's subsidary took over this plant.  CAT will build their items elsewhere and the former CAW members will get other jobs.

Life goes on.

Jim

Just for the record, Caterpillar reported profits of $2.7 Billion for 2010 and $1.8 Billion for 2009. So the company can afford to pay a living wage. It's also obvious the lowered wage and no pension offer was not made in "good faith" as the decision to close the plant had already been made in Peoria. So please, quit the union bashing.

Rick

My wife was, and my brother-in-law, my best friends wife and several of my friends are, members of Public Employee Unions. In private they laugh about it and acknowledge they have a sweet deal, but in public they act outraged that anyone would consider cutting their salary and benefits packages to help balance a state budget.(See Wisconsin). 

Incidently, their combined salary and benefit packages are 20-30% more than my Intel Corp. engineer buddies make. Although I see the need and benefit for some unions, I can see why many people find that disturbing, especially public employee unions which are tax based.

Ed, I wish we were not so far apart on this issue.  Would much rather talk A's, J's and Y's.

My assertions about the inadequacy of $16 per hr., sans benefits, is far from "fatuous."  Come to the real world of Galion, OH,  and see how far that money goes. First, the net will be closer to $13.  With no benefits, a trip to the m.d. and drug store will remove a big chunk. ( Just the doc visit here will take almost a C-note. ) Then, hit the gas station for $3.60 per gal. petrol, which you must have, account no public transportation.  If your job is in another town ( quite likely, as there is very little employment left in Galion at any wage , the gas bill skyrockets.  Have you priced groceries lately?  Shoes, just plain basic ones?  Car repairs in the diagnostic era? Tires? ( Just gave 2 C-notes for a set of used rubber for my wife's 15 yr. old beater. Insurance?  Mortgage or rent payment?  School supplies?  Dental work?  Utility bills?  Suddenly, that big $16 has gone "poof."  This is the reality of life for millions of Americans  in 2012.

As for your blaming unions for all the woes, that just doesn't wash.  You left out decades of  mgmt. intransigence, on the r.r.'s and elsewhere, that  led to the counter-attack by union workers.  Talk to a crew in Bellevue or Willard at 3 a.m. in Winter, when the skeletal remnants of a r.r. work force can not cope with the demands placed on it.  Try to find a signal maintainer in Galion when one of the gates goes berserk.  Mgmts in FL or VA are  far removed from the daily fight to keep the wheels turning. And the "investors" care about nothing but their profits.  This is, indeed, "Class Warfare," but it is waged on working people by those at the top, and has been since the ink dried on those documents in Philadelphia.  Recall the "Battle of the Overpass?"  Clara Ford, Henry's wife, told him she would leave him unless he settled fairly with his workers. That's what it took to get him to sign with the UAW.  Remember the "Matewan Massacre?" The "Jungle?"  American history is replete with thousands of examples of brutal treatment of workers by the powers at the top, not only the owners, but their allies in gov't and "law enforcement."  If businesses would treat their employees fairly, most of this strife would be eliminated.  But greed has a way of pushing the Golden Rule off the field. 

One more note:  The fella from whom I got the used tires peddles them out of an un-heated garage in a "Grapes of Wrath" neighborhood across town.  His "real" job is driving a van shuttling CSX crews about.  His wage?  $7.47  per hr. to drive poorly maintained vehicles at all hours, in all weather.  His situation is repeated countless times every day, all over this nation.

Sooner or later, something will give.  After all, Tom's "Declaration" does say that the people have the right to revolt.  Gonna get really interesting.  However it shakes down, I won't live to see it, but most of you will.  Hang on.

The facts of life are that the standard of living in the U.S. has been far above that of the rest of the World for many, many years.  The World has changed with free trade and the hard fact is that the U.S. can no longer sustain it's high standard of living.  Thus, those of us alive today in the U.S. are going to pay the price of a lower standard of living now and in the future.  Living high of the hog and now having to fall off the standard is a very hard thing to swallow.  But Union member, white collar or tradesmen, etc. ARE going to have their standard of living reduced now and into the future in this Country.  It is a frightening thought as well as painful but it is what it is.  You have to be a student of history to understand what is going on here.  The U.S. is going the way of all previous great nations.

Off my soapbox.

 Pipeline is going to Texas, probably because that is where the most refineries are. Yes it is cheaper to ship the bitumen via pipeline verses rail. Oil companies are saying that current pipelines are running at full capacity. The Keystone project will ensure a safe and secure oil supply for the future. Al

Ed, how far can this "take it leave it" m.o. go?  Are we to revert to the pre-New Deal times, when workers had no rights at all, and companies treated them as they saw fit?  Someone over on Trainorders stated that $16 an hr. today will not provide for a decent standard of living.

Yeah! sounds like Today's Post office employees! Try becoming a Full time Regular [FTR] now!

I'm for employees organizing to negotiate with employers. Read Jim Tighe's excellent response in this thread. However, there seems to be something wrong with the public employee unions. Voting for, even supporting with union funds, the people who eventually determin your wages and perks seems sort of like a self licking ice creme cone. 

Just because you have a refinery does not mean it can process the feedstock sent to it.

Busy executive to doctor: "I don't have time to exercise an hour a day."

Doctor to executive: "Do you have time to be dead 24 hours a day?"

So the London workers decided that, instead of settling for $16.00 an hour, they'd exercise their collective muscles and settle for $0.00 an hour, plus whatever unemployment they get.

Makes a lot of sense, now, doesn't it?

EdKing

You guys DO know what CAW really stands for, don't you?

Closed Another Workplace