FASTRACK SWITCH TRACK ISSUES

Yardmaster96 posted:

Moonman

Tons of thank you for the information.  One thing you just did was inform me that the smaller track pieces are for more than just those nagging issues of "how the heck am I going to fill this gap."  I have several spots on my layout where after I used all the 10's, and inserted a switch or two, the track was 1 3/4 inches away from completing a full oval. In some cases 6 3/4 inches, and in a couple of cases because I'm completely out of 10's right now, I had a 27" gap and a 90 5/8" gap.  I did the math and found my gaps need to be a bit wider to equal out to the parts I have to choose from.  I had no idea those smaller pieces were also block pieces.  I kept reading about blocks on your layout.  I thought they were for the reason I mentioned, you started at one spot and after your finished a complete oval, you were 1 3/8, 1 3/4, 4 1/2, or 5 inches short.  I did wonder how Lionel came to the conclusion you needed those specific measurements.

I have attached a FasTrack lengths combination for you. measure the gap, then check for a combination of pieces. There are some were there is no combination.

Also, and this is for clarification.  You recommend I take the white wire I used to hook the Base 1L to the track, and trade hooking it to the track for direct connection to the black wire on the TIU.  Easy enough to do, especially with the way I have the black wire attached to the TIU, but wanted to make sure I was reading you correctly.\

Well, it's the track wire from the Base 1L that goes to an outside rail. Connecting it to the Black Out terminal on the TIU ensures that the signal gets to all the connections that go from the TIU.

I have a lighted caboose.  I know, Flashing Infrared Lights are now put on the last car of every train to tell the signals you've passed the crossings, or maybe something new has been developed, but I use a caboose.  When I slowly push the car around the track, do I watch for flickering or total lights out at the weak spots.  To me, and this is just my thinking, dead spots would cause the engine to suddenly just stop. 

The caboose is fine, Flickering is not as important as dimming or no lights. Flickering may suggest dirty track or the caboose wheels or rollers are dirty.

 

Most command locos have a "keep alive" circuit that keeps an engine's processing active over short, fast, loss of power.  A flicker is nothing.

There are solutions to lessen or eliminate car flicker if it bothers you. Lots of threads... or start another

A caboose is a good test lamp, but not a great one.

Moonman

I looked at the 50-1014 and saw what you are talking about.  Locations 1-12 have, for ease of terminology in my case, a red screw and a black screw.  At the bottom there is a very large red screw on one side and a very large black screw on the other side.  That's where you attach the board to the TIU Fixed Out port.  Am I correct?

Also, I am going to change how I set up the Base 1L wire from the U connection.  I just need to make sure I am on the right page with this.  I can run the Base 1L wire from the U connection on the box to the black wire leading into the Fixed In or out port.  I assume based on how it is hooked up now, it would be the out port wire since that is the wire leading to the same track that I just unhooked from.  However, if I attach the TIU to a terminal block, would I run that wire to the ground screw on the block or can I run it to the ground wire connection at the out port.  So long as this wire is connected to the ground wire leading to the track in whatever way it leads there?

I know, a lot to swallow.  Hopefully I haven't frustrated you too much.  You are helping me in ways that I can never repay.  If I haven't said thank you enough, please know I do appreciate your time and patience.  This forum is about all I have to go on when it comes to train tech support.  I don't know if the rest of the forum has the same ignore me issues that I do with actual train stores, but for all the help they are when you can get a person to answer you or talk to you, they are very bad about answering emails, and I leave more messages than I get voices on the other end of the phone.

John

Adriatic

Good information on the caboose issue.  I'll be sure to clean the track once I finally get all of it hooked together.  One thing though.  When I was slowly running it around the track, the light inside pretty much stayed on as bright as it can shine.  However, when I reached one of the switch track, at about the mid point way through the switch, the light went dead.  I pushed the car a bit further, light came back on.  I rolled it backward, light went dead and then almost immediately as it continued backward, it came back on.  Do I have a dead spot in my switch, a bad wire, or a dirty track?

Thanks

John (or yardmaster if we are using our made up names) A line from Avengers Infinity War

Yardmaster96 posted:

Adriatic

Good information on the caboose issue.  I'll be sure to clean the track once I finally get all of it hooked together.  One thing though.  When I was slowly running it around the track, the light inside pretty much stayed on as bright as it can shine.  However, when I reached one of the switch track, at about the mid point way through the switch, the light went dead.  I pushed the car a bit further, light came back on.  I rolled it backward, light went dead and then almost immediately as it continued backward, it came back on.  Do I have a dead spot in my switch, a bad wire, or a dirty track?

Thanks

John (or yardmaster if we are using our made up names) A line from Avengers Infinity War

Yardmaster96 posted:

Moonman

I looked at the 50-1014 and saw what you are talking about.  Locations 1-12 have, for ease of terminology in my case, a red screw and a black screw.  At the bottom there is a very large red screw on one side and a very large black screw on the other side.  That's where you attach the board to the TIU Fixed Out port.  Am I correct?

Yes, you have it

Also, I am going to change how I set up the Base 1L wire from the U connection.  I just need to make sure I am on the right page with this.  I can run the Base 1L wire from the U connection on the box to the black wire leading into the Fixed In or out port.  No in, out only.

I assume based on how it is hooked up now, it would be the out port wire CORRECT since that is the wire leading to the same track that I just unhooked from.  However, if I attach the TIU to a terminal block, would I run that wire to the ground screw on the block or can I run it to the ground wire connection at the out port. Still the out on TIU with the common to the Terminal Board(s) 

So long as this wire is connected to the ground wire leading to the track in whatever way it leads there? Yes

I know, a lot to swallow.  Hopefully I haven't frustrated you too much.  You are helping me in ways that I can never repay.  If I haven't said thank you enough, please know I do appreciate your time and patience.  This forum is about all I have to go on when it comes to train tech support.  I don't know if the rest of the forum has the same ignore me issues that I do with actual train stores, but for all the help they are when you can get a person to answer you or talk to you, they are very bad about answering emails, and I leave more messages than I get voices on the other end of the phone.

No problem, you are not the first starting out that was helped by others. That was me at one time.

John

 

Yardmaster96 posted:

Adriatic

Good information on the caboose issue.  I'll be sure to clean the track once I finally get all of it hooked together.  One thing though.  When I was slowly running it around the track, the light inside pretty much stayed on as bright as it can shine.  However, when I reached one of the switch track, at about the mid point way through the switch, the light went dead.  I pushed the car a bit further, light came back on.  I rolled it backward, light went dead and then almost immediately as it continued backward, it came back on.  Do I have a dead spot in my switch, a bad wire, or a dirty track?

Thanks

John (or yardmaster if we are using our made up names) A line from Avengers Infinity War

The switch is a problem. It would best to remove it and replace with some straights. Then, you can work on it somewhere comfortable.

it sounds like this is one the problems.

Is this a used switch?

What type?

Oops! Here is the FasTrack combo length chart that I forgot.

It's a maybe IMO. A single roller caboose, or "bad luck" in the spacing of rollers in design could be the cause. Too many different designs exist to guarantee a switch will be trouble free for everything that may roll across it. Carl's suggestion to remove it for now is a good one. Sort of a reverse process of elimination. Get the basics right then worry about additions working, one by one. (I may have missed something as well. I haven't been following super closely as Im not intimately familiar with the sw. build like Carl is. My strength is general troubleshooting, and associative methods similar to other areas of electronics Ive had experince with [wide variety, nothing extremely "deep" compared to an engineer, but enough to feed myself and call a few (major&minor) mistakes in my fields ..degree or not, we are all human ])

oh, "the leds".  I recalled another thread similar to this from the past now, but don't recall how it was handled... might have been the replacement thread. I do not have anything definative to add for dim led.

I'm guessing the cause of the leds going 100% bad here is coil activation related spikes.  I'd likely try a tvs to stop it.  A preventative fix with no proof of it's success ever; but wouldn't hurt to try.

  In my trades, I was replacing an led of one kind or another weekly out of about 50- 500 total.  The life expectancy of an led is based on a prefect scenereo. Issues lead to more issues; led being taken out by a less than prefect situation is far more likely than the situation remaining perfect enough to reach max life expectancy. Because I've replaced so many,  I still like bulbs best for the simplistic nature... and the type of light emmited when it is for illumination of our surroundings. 

I have several bits of advice to reply too in this one so bear with me.

Moonman.  Thanks for the help, again, and thanks for the track piece list.  I'll get back you on that one.

As for removing the switch that briefly deadened the light in my caboose, I can't really remove that switch because it is fastened to butt to butt with a second switch that allows the train to divert off of the outer most track to the middle track, then go straight or divert again to the inner most oval that leads to the parking tracks.  Because the outer most and middle tracks are both main line routes, simply put you can make two trains go in the same or opposite direction around and around for hours, I had to hook a right hand turn directly to a left hand turn, then butt another right hand turn to the back of that one so the train could snake through to the inner most or "yard" oval as I call it.  Now I didn't add and 1 3/8 or 3/4 blocks, I just married them directly to each other when I did this.  Should I have maybe added said blocks to give the transitions a bit more flexibility.  What I am trying to ask is, the direct connect scenario seems to be a bit "cramped".

One thing I should mention, and I should have mentioned way back when I started this thread.  My track is currently fraught with gaps.  I may have mentioned this.  I have been pulling my hair out, pushing, pulling, sliding, cursing, adding and subtracting, measuring, and consuming copious amounts of alcohol trying to figure out how to make these **** straight stretches come together as one long stretch of completed track.  Room dimensions, curve diameter, lack of knowledge as to how to set up a functional layout, and the ever popular how it looked in my head versus how it is mapping out on the floor, have caused me to become intimately familiar with the 5, 4 1/2, 1 3/4, and 1 3/8 blocks.  Pieces I did not posses when I started this.  They are shipped.  Shipped....not here.  So in place of track I currently have post it notes with "use one 5 and one 1 3/8 here" etc etc.

So if you are wondering how I can be so familiar with the specialty lengths, but not know anything about how they work or why they were designed to work the way they do, it's because I thought I could 10 inch the living hell out of this layout and all my lengths would fit together like a perfect oval puzzle.  WRONG.  But thanks to all of you and a little help from Jack Daniels (line from chrismas vacation, I really don't drink), I'm learning.  Long story short but probably not the case, my LED problem could be due to not having a complete connection track as of yet.  I've already derailed once because I got enamored with my engine speeding around the outer most track only to have it violently stopped by a missing 4 1/2 inch piece.

Your approach to the track assembly is ok. Now, just use a tape measure on the gaps and then look at the chart to find what tracks will fill the gap.

Some items that will throw you are the switch through lengths. O48, O60 and O72 are different lengths that are fractions.

Putting the switch track end to end on the through without the 1 3/8 half-road bed (for O60 & O72)) pieces is ok. It comes out shorter in total length. Same for the diverging or turn-out.

Snaking the switches to get from outermost to the innermost loop is ok. The fitter pieces really help with center rail to center rail spacing or moving the loops in relation to one another.

One issue that will get you is that the O60 turnout will not replace an O60 curve. I don't know why it was designed that way. It makes the O60 kind of an orphan.

My concern is that the center metal piece of the problem switch may be dead. The roller is fine on any of the rails getting power. The wheels get common. It sounds like you are describing when the roller is on the center piece it is dead.

Check the position of the roller when the caboose lights go out.

You'll have to remove the offending switch to diagnose and repair it.

So, check the exact position of the roller.

Moonman

I have finally gotten all of my gaps measured and with some minor adjusting managed to get all of them divisible by Lionel.  I'll let you figure that one out, will explain if you are curious.

As for the turnout dimensions, or gauge, or arc, whatever it is referred to, I use 072 across the board.  Now, for the "you can't do that" or the "you shouldn't be doing that".  I used 072 curve to create the Union Pacific parking track that is as I explained, one of five parking area tracks that spin off the third or yard track oval.  I had to.  It's the DDA40X.  I call it the stretch limo.  It has to have no less than 072 to turn.  The thing looks like a jacked up mobile home going through the switches.  It reminds me of those New York ladder trucks where one firefighter has to steer the rear to corner at intersections.  Anyway, I used a 10 inch straight directly off the turnout to force the issue of alignment with the opposite end where the left hand switch was waiting to match up.  I then curved 072 three times to get the straight away started.  I didn't use 072 curve on the others.

My CSX ES44AC by MTH is a Railking design.  Being Railking it is rated for 036 curve.  At least in Lionel's stable it is 036.  Realtrax equivalent is even narrower than that.  So the CSX parking track begins at the turnout with an 036 curve to bend it close to the columns, then fans out a bit using 060.  All I can say is that it has been tested and the engine doesn't do anything funky when it navigates the turn.  Since the rest of my engines are rated in MTH jargon for 048, I used the 060's to begin their turns.

As you are probably aware, turn arc makes a big difference in how much floor you cover in a full or partial curve.  You'd like to keep the tracks all nice and tucked in neat and pretty with just the right amount of space to allow two trains to meet harmoniously with no sideswipe, but when you have to use the 60's, 72's and 84's, your curves determine actual layout space.  So my gaps are more an inability to keep the layout tight, than they are inability to purchase custom lengths.

As for the dead spot, I will wait until my gap tracks are on site and installed and I have a complete layout before I do a full blown test of the electricity flow.  Your information regarding the terminal board was golden.  I can do a lot with that, now that I know how it works.

I do want to pass something along, that I think is still true today.  I only say this because I bought my switch track in April and I received what I received.  I watched a tube video made by one of those hand models, (you never see his face, just his hands), travis I think, who explained why switch track jam up when you exchange sides with the lamp stand.  He showed us that a manufactures defect that China either doesn't know about, knows but can't change it due to contractual issues, or knows but really doesn't care since Lionel is also probably aware of it but won't go to the trouble of telling China to fix it, is the culprit.  RH or LH, doesn't matter, when you change the lamp stand from the factory spec side over to the opposite side, the opposite female connection slide has a (and I apologize this isn't an attempt to be crude or funny), a nipple.  The factory side is a clean square, smooth all around, but the opposite slide connection point has a nipple on the corner.  Travis said he has repaired every switch he bought.   The fix.  Trim off the **** nipple and sand it down smooth.  Now when you install the lamp stand on the opposite side, the missing nipple doesn't cause the slide to get crimped down when you tighten the screws.

Wonder what else Lionel knows about that China isn't allowed to fix?

  I'm a bit "out of it" from low blood sugar and can't recall if I mentioned it or not; deep reading a real chore at the moment; but leaving a way for track to expand a little is prudent. The rails do get warm and expand some when in use. Too tight and buckling pressure can occur.

A volt/ohm meter may help a lot.  Harbor Freight often has coupons for a free one with any purchase. Finding another useful item is pretty easy. It's not professional quality,(few items there are), but good enough for the majority of work we do in the hobby. Better than a caboose  ...at times

Yardmaster96,  Has Lionel responded to your inquiry about warranty coverage?  AS several posters have stated, LEDs are electronic components, not bulbs.  When properly applied LEDs have a theoretical life of as much as 100,000 hours. This is the reason it is not designed to be easily replaced by the user and a reason Lionel should cover the failure.  This problem appears to be an issue of infant mortality of the LED component, a misapplication of the chosen LED, or a mis-design of the circuitry.  Again all reasons the warranty should apply.  If Lionel does not intend to warranty LEDs they should state a specific exclusion, since LEDs are not bulbs

Good to know and thank you for the information.  My plan once I have the track completely connected is to see just what switches have LED issues, and see what switches have mechanism issues.  Once I am sure there is a problem with the switch stand and not the way I have them attached or low voltage, I am going to contact lionel by phone and discuss a possible solution that involves them sending me the number of replacements I need to fix my problem and then see where it goes from there.  My goal is to get those replacements free of charge, free of shipping because they were defective out of the box.  Something tells me before they will do that, I will have to perform some sort of electrical engineering feat and prove they are dead and that my layout didn't kill them.

I'm still looking for a good Ohm meter or multimeter.  Will probably get one, but for now, my best friend has one. 

Yardmaster96 posted:

Moonman

I have finally gotten all of my gaps measured and with some minor adjusting managed to get all of them divisible by Lionel.  I'll let you figure that one out, will explain if you are curious.

As for the turnout dimensions, or gauge, or arc, whatever it is referred to, I use 072 across the board.  Now, for the "you can't do that" or the "you shouldn't be doing that".  I used 072 curve to create the Union Pacific parking track that is as I explained, one of five parking area tracks that spin off the third or yard track oval.  I had to.  It's the DDA40X.  I call it the stretch limo.  It has to have no less than 072 to turn.  The thing looks like a jacked up mobile home going through the switches.  It reminds me of those New York ladder trucks where one firefighter has to steer the rear to corner at intersections.  Anyway, I used a 10 inch straight directly off the turnout to force the issue of alignment with the opposite end where the left hand switch was waiting to match up.  I then curved 072 three times to get the straight away started.  I didn't use 072 curve on the others.

That isn't a problem making the track that way.

As for the dead spot, I will wait until my gap tracks are on site and installed and I have a complete layout before I do a full blown test of the electricity flow.  Your information regarding the terminal board was golden.  I can do a lot with that, now that I know how it works.

The FasTrack switches will get power as long a one end has hot & common. The gap on one end shouldn't matter.

I do want to pass something along, that I think is still true today.  I only say this because I bought my switch track in April and I received what I received.  I watched a tube video made by one of those hand models, (you never see his face, just his hands), travis I think, who explained why switch track jam up when you exchange sides with the lamp stand.  He showed us that a manufactures defect that China either doesn't know about, knows but can't change it due to contractual issues, or knows but really doesn't care since Lionel is also probably aware of it but won't go to the trouble of telling China to fix it, is the culprit.  RH or LH, doesn't matter, when you change the lamp stand from the factory spec side over to the opposite side, the opposite female connection slide has a (and I apologize this isn't an attempt to be crude or funny), a nipple.  The factory side is a clean square, smooth all around, but the opposite slide connection point has a nipple on the corner.  Travis said he has repaired every switch he bought.   The fix.  Trim off the **** nipple and sand it down smooth.  Now when you install the lamp stand on the opposite side, the missing nipple doesn't cause the slide to get crimped down when you tighten the screws.

Wonder what else Lionel knows about that China isn't allowed to fix?

You have to take that with a grain of salt. Model train products that have issues are typically in just one production run. The FasTrack switches have had a couple of them through the years. I haven't opened a new switch, so it may or may not have the offending molding "nipple".

Taking the switch off of the layout and removing the base cover for bench testing will usually lead to discovery of the problem. The are all not difficult to resolve.

 

Yardmaster96 posted:

I'm still looking for a good Ohm meter or multimeter.  Will probably get one, but for now, my best friend has one. 

Any of harbor Freight's are suitable for model train work and troubleshooting. They are usually $8 - $15. Then, search Craigslist for a used Fluke. takes a while to see one that is inexpensive.

Yardmaster96 posted:

I'm still looking for a good Ohm meter or multimeter.  Will probably get one, but for now, my best friend has one. 

I have an assortment of meters, from expensive Fluke bench meters to the little Harbor Freight clamp-on multi-meter.  Any of them are suitable for most of the things you'd do with model trains unless you're designing circuitry or doing precision measurements.

I actually like the little HF meter for it's convenience and the ease of a quick current measurement when working on the bench.

6 Function Mini Clamp Meter

I bought a fluke 87 for $100 years ago at a ham fest. Great buy!

I have an ancient Fluke 77 that served me for around 15 years, but the ohms are now out of calibration and there's no easy or cheap way to fix it.  The voltages still work fine and are within a couple percent, but I had to finally retire it for a newer meter.

My most commonly used meter nowadays is the Fluke 117, though I go to the bench 8012A to measure low ohm parts.

The Harbor Freight clamp meter GRJ posted above is a nice one at a good price. While you are there getting yours, take this Coupon for a free Digital Multimeter and get one of those too.

I really appreciate the assistance in my search for a meter, but I have to be honest and I'm a bit embarrassed to say this, but I have not a clue how you use one of those things.  Brett used to get his out and hook up the leads and turn the dial to some setting and touch wires and get either a positive look on his face and say, well that's not the problem, or a pained look and say, that's not good.  This is why I don't want to spend anymore money on a tool I wouldn't know if I was using it right or not.  So if anyone feels like giving me a quick tutorial on how to use a volt meter or multimeter and if the two are different, I would greatly appreciate the help.

Do a search on youtube for something like 'how to use a multimeter' or 'using a multimeter'. They are also sometimes called DM, DMM, volt meter, current meter, etc. There are probably several out there that will not only explain but illustrate their uses. The video instruction is probably better than trying to explain in written text anyway.

Most multimeters purchased new should come this instructions. I have one more expensive meter that has instructions that I still refer to occasionally. 

Good advice, actually did that. Found one on a video where a guy was showing us how to fix a continuity issue.  He showed me how to test for continuity, then how to fix the problem if the center rail doesn't go beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.  One problem though.

I switched to how to test voltage.  The first thing I need to know is do I put the black lead to the ground or common rail and the red lead to the center rail.  If so, what's good?  What's bad and what's "this is what you ultimately want the meter to read for best case scenario".

There are many others here more qualified and able to describe this much better, but I'll give it a try. For measuring voltage I think it's good practice to use red for the positive (center rail) and black for common (outer rail). Our O gauge three rail trains are almost always AC so it will read the same either way. This is called polarity and it does matter with DC voltage. Red is positive and black is negative or common. Of course the meter inputs are marked and the leads need to be connected to the meter accordingly.

Probably the most important thing to remember when using a meter is to select the proper meter dial setting and range for the voltage, AC, DC, resistance or continuity, current, etc. that you are trying to measure. Measuring voltage with the meter set to resistance (continuity) will either blow the meter's internal fuse or ruin the meter if it isn't fused. Don't ask me how I know this...(but mine was fused). 

You put the black lead to the outside Rail, and the red lead to the center rail.  There is no good or proper voltage it should read.   It just reads the voltage your transformer is applying to the track depending upon where the transformer handle is set or what power supply you're using.  A good test would be to test your voltage across the posts of your transformer with a handle set to a certain position, and then test the actual track voltage when set at the same position. It should be fairly close to what the transformer is putting out.  You can then go around your track sections using the meter connected to the outside rail and the inside rail as described above and test each section and see if it's getting the same, or near the same voltage is the previous. Or in your case you may just be concerned with the switch / switches.  Voltage will go down the further you get away from the transformer connections unless you have multiple feeds to your track.

Train Nut

Thanks for the advice, hadn't thought of that approach.  I'll do that after I get my computer work done and see what I get.  Thanks to both replies telling me that I need to put the black to the ground and the red to the center.  Makes sense

So, getting to the crux of the biscuit, go to the offending switch and test all the rails and finally the red to center metal piece with the black to an outside rail on the through track.

The inside rails at the V of the turnout are isolated for non-derail. leave those out of the testing.