Garage Sale Find: Lionel ZW 250 Watts - Now What?

Consider yourself lucky if the power cord is in good condition. Typically they need to be replaced. It sounds like you have already inspected the cord, found it to be free of cracks and pliable.

Read the Lionel service manual pages on your transformer. They can be found here.

While the transformer is unplugged, remove the top cover for inspection.

As you move the control levers back and forth, you will see arms moving. Each arm should have a carbon roller that is rotating against the transformer coil. No metal part of the arm should be touching the coil.

With the cover back on, work both whistle switches back and forth. They should snap back to center. If they do not, they will to be serviced.

The internal circuit breaker should be tested.
Even if the breaker tests out fine, supplemental external breakers are always recommended. I use one on each output, terminals A, B, C, D.
I like to use Postwar Lionel #91 electromagnetic adjustable breakers. (They must be properly adjusted). They are plenty of other choices, I am certain people will post about them. If you are running modern trains, you probably should have TVS surge protectors as well.

Thanks C.W., the cord doesn't have any cracks in it and it has the lionel "L" in the plug.  I have a feeling the previous owner may have either replaced it or just plain took good care of it, we'll see.

I'm going to read through the manual now, this is a fantastic idea and I'm feeling silly for not thinking of it myself.

I'll go ahead and remove the cover today to inspect the insides.  The whistle switches do in fact snap back to center now, I also quickly tested the reverse switches (clicking them the other way) and they worked.

Again, I'm feeling kind of like a newbie here, I'm not certain how to test the internal circuit breaker, this likely sounds silly to you but I've never done this before, I'll google around a bit to see if I can find out how to do that.  Same deal with using eternal breakers, I'll see if I can google around for the ones you mentioned.

Thank you again, I'm super excited about this one!

Best...Rich

Cord, rollers and breaker, checked. Your good to go. By the way your 250 watt has the same output as a 275. Lionel just figured a way to boost the rating. If the whistle disc is bad you can find replacements for them. Also if you are running newer engines the electronics will not always respond to a PW transformer.

Just short across A & U @ 14 volts the circuit breaker should pop within a few seconds.

Rich,

  Great finds. I have 2 ZW's and they are great.

  You can power up all of your switchers now! 

Tom

great find Rich.

I test transformer circuit breakers using a postwar Lionel test bench.
Some folks use heavy duty automotive bulbs to create enough of a load to trip the breaker.

This chart from the Lionel test bench manual provides specifications. (The full chart is two pages)

Great finds!  The ZW is a fine transformer and the beacon is a terrific accessory.  My beacon has been humming gently for nearly 10 years with very occasional graphite on the rubber fingers.  Enjoy!

quote:

Same deal with using eternal breakers, I'll see if I can google around for the ones you mentioned.

The subjects of transformer servicing, safety, and using external breakers are frequently discussed here. They are important topics that most of us don't mind going over whenever a new question arises. If you search right within this board, you should get some good information. Perhaps "ZW external breaker" would be a good search term.

1)  I've opened her up and taken a peek at the rollers, they look fine to me, no metal arms touching anything, pictures below.

2)  C.W.  Thanks for the note about the search - many times I use Google to search for content within the forum, instead of the search functionality within the forum, as I find it works better for me.  I also use the term "google" as a verb often, hope that makes sense.  Most times when I use Google to "google" for train stuff, the results are content of this forum!

3)  I'm pretty sure the circuit breaker isn't working properly, check this video out and picture of my screwdriver, not good!  I'd hate for this thing to damage one of my trains like it's doing to the screwdriver.

4)  I've tried a few different engines, still no whistle.

It sounded like the breaker tripped, you can hear the click...Remove the red lens cap and test the bulb, might be burned out, I think it is a 6v bulb, don't have the book in front right now...

Marty

Thanks Marty, I switched the bulbs and they both appear to be working OK (on the "green" side), I agree the breaker likely tripped but it did kind of beat up my screwdriver a bit, so I'm a bit concerned.

Believe it or not, shorting the terminals on a wide open zw throttle will cause burns / pitting like that. According to the chart I linked above, a ZW will put out almost 30 amps, and the breaker will take up to 10-15 seconds to trip. Hence the recommendation for external breakers.

The breaker inside the ZW only works for circuits involving the common ("U") posts. It is too easy to accidentally create a circuit using only the hot (A-D) posts. Plus, 30 amps @ 15 seconds is way too long to protect your wiring.

I don't think I will ever forget the time I picked up an engine that had derailed and fell over, with its metal handrail shorting the track. That was one heck of a burn. (Didn't have external breakers at the time)

quote:

I've tried a few different engines, still no whistle.

Postwar engines or Modern?

The circuitry Lionel used in their postwar whistle control system requires a load on the transformer to generate enough DC bias to operate the whistle relay. Some modern engines don't generate enough of a load. The figures for the DC bias levels are called "pickup" and "Holding" voltages in the transformer chart.

Thanks again C.W., I'm reading more about the external breakers and the loads now as per your suggestions.

This service info on ZW's was posted a few weeks ago. 

Both bulbs are working, sounds like I need to:

1) replace the circuit breaker.  

2) pick up some #91's (or similar) to put between the transformer and the tracks.  I've now read a bunch of threads where people use lots of different things for this, the 91's seem easy enough I suppose, I see one on the bay now.

3) figure out the whistle issues.  I've tried a few conventional (non TMCC/Legacy) modern-ish engines.  I'll look at the load chart mentioned by C.W. earlier in this thread.  The tranz4mr.com link mentions I should "Clean the whistle switches with CRC QD Contact Cleaner whether they need it or not. Get it at Home Depot in the Electrical section."  I've never done anything like this before, so I'll need to figure out that too.

I noticed also on the bay that there are reproduction boxes, if I get this squared away I'll likely pick up one of these I guess too.

Thanks again for all the help...Rich

Murnane

Here are a couple of simple tests you could do with a light that will help you check out your ZW. 

You might consider attaching some kind of light to A and U.(a light in a socket such as one out of a caboose) Turn the power up, and short the circuit with your screw driver again. If the circuit breaker is working the light should go out and remain out until the circuit breaker resets itself.

Also, if the whistle rectifier is working the light you attach to A U  should glow brighter when you move the controller over to "whistle."

Richard

Thanks Richard, I just tried your tests and the circuit breaker never tripped, although I didn't leave the screwdriver on very long because the sparks.  Note I didn't have the power turned up very high during the test.

So, after this test and some more reading, it sounds like I need to:

1)  replace the circuit breaker

2)  pick up some #91's or similar - just in case

3)  replace the Whistle Rectifier Discs with Diodes (http://www.tranz4mr.com/ZW_Whistle_Diodes.html)

I also read elsewhere to put a transient-voltage suppressor (TVS) diode between the A-D and it's associated U, such as on the lockons or where I solder the power wires to the track.

So.... this is becoming "quite a learning experience" for me, the newbie.  I'm a little (or a lot) concerned about taking this thing apart and doing the replacements, as the wiring inside looks pretty rigid and there's not a lot of wiggle room in there, I hope I don't break anything and make things worse.

Murnane,

I know many folks who have used the diode method to replace the rectifier disks, and  it works well.

You might try the Train Tender as a source for a replacement circuit breaker.

Richard

As others have mentioned, the internal PW breaker is not a very fast one.  If you stopped when you first saw sparks, the current probably wasn't there long enough to trip it (it relies on the heat from the current) even if you do have a good breaker. 

If you have an alligator test lead with fairly heavy wire, you can test the breaker by hooking the clips directly to the posts and then turning up the juice to see if it trips.  Far fewer sparks, and you won't add weld marks to your screwdriver this way.

Another write up a forum member (Dale H)did always looked good to me with respect to the adding more responsive breakers and also TVS to each circuit.  His page showing how he built up the circuits using barrier strips and a piece of board is here.

-Dave

What you paid for the transformer is just about the right price. The 250's go for about $100. The 275's go for a little more.

I would not use the Lionel ZW unless you use super fast tripping electronic circuit breaker's the power is to strong and the electronic boards will burn up if you get a short from a derailment , long before the breaker trips, see Marty on the forum he can tell you where to purchase the fast acting breakers or contact GGG either man will be helpful . all I know is the electronic boards are expensive and a fast acting breaker would be cheaper in the long run that chancing burning up your modern electronics' in a  Lionel or MTH engines . An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!

ZW Transformer are good for accessories as long as there is no electronics' like the old pre and post war accessories, if the accessories are MTH or Lionel new accessories they now use electronics and again  can blow any electronic boards from shorts. just look at the melted screwdriver tip somebody posted on this forum thread.

Good luck

alan

P.S. also you want to take a good look at the ZW transformer winding ,if the rollers were wore out at some point and were not replace right away look for a cut in the winding where the roller tracks on the coil. as long as that's ok the transformer will be fine to use with the appropriate fast acting breakers!

Alan

Check out this thread on circuit protection.

Can someone please just post a link to a good circuit breaker.  I find the searches confusing.  thanks

From the pictures and your operating tests you have a little used ZW.  You may want to fix the whistle if you want to blow whistles and can easily solve the circuit breaker issue by using 10 amp re-setable circuit breakers on each output with trip indication via a 18 volt bulb across the CB, bulbs installed behind clear red plastic.

This was the Week End for Lionel transformers.  I got a Type 1044, 90 watt and a Type 1025, 45 watt and 12 piece of 027 track for $4 at a church sale.  They will be good for floor layouts for the grands at Christmas.  I very seldom find Lionel stuff at sales around here.

Charlie

The part number called out in the first post in the thread I previously posted is here.

These are external to the ZW to help it be safer for modern trains the wiring(added in series with the output).  The internal is another matter.

-Dave

{edited based on correction of what the breakers help protect}

Breakers are not for and never were for protecting the trains, only the transformer.

It's not surges or over current that does the damage to modern electronics, it's the cumulative effect of spikes in excess of 35 volts that eventually cause the component failures, and this is even with the best over current protection in place. The spikes are naturally occurring as an effect of transmitting electricity by mechanical means to a moving load along the rails.

Clamping the spikes at ~33 volts with a bipolar TVS is the best way to eliminate the damage due to spikes, and a TVS will clamp a spike much faster than the best over current protection(breaker, fuse, polyfuse) can react.

When the breaker trips, the damage has already been done, whether it is adding on to the cumulative damage or it is a fatal blow.

Rich,

   Looks like you picked up a real nice ZW transformer, If you are running DCS remember to put 10 Amp breakers between the old ZW and the DCS TIU on every channel, the TIU TVS will do the rest.  Run with the DCS Hand Held Remote and you have it made. You will find your ZW is a lot better transformer than any CW-80, have fun powering your layout with your ZW 250, great find at a real good price.  If you are interested I posted a few threads on installing/retrofitting female Banana plugs on the old ZW's & KW's, the threads should be pretty easy to find in the archives.

Enjoy your ZW!

PCRR/Dave

https://ogrforum.com/t...t-circuit-protection

A TVS, poly-fuse, adjustable and/or auto reset breaker etc . The extra safety is a good idea period. A great idea for modern stuff.

  Some faster acting protection was more or less already in the CW's, but there is only one ZW. Your in for a treat once your settled. 

Use a 120vac power strip with a breaker in it too.

Check your wiring paths for "hot rodding".(the is more than one way to skin a big cat)

Your windings look great from here.

It seemed to trip the breaker. You still get a read at variables and U though?

Check for correct wiring, bulbs, and replace some things.

A non sparky way I was taught (naptha rags!) is wire in a direct short, (with a slow blow fuse, same as the given breaker if your very safety minded, but I ad an amp) be ready on the plug, or- put a thumb on the power strip button, and raise the throttle rather quickly. If it doesn't click off in 3-4 seconds, lower it fast. If the fuse is burnt change it fast.

 Wait 10 seconds, try one more time.

A second power up causing a trip means the breaker was only a little cold in round one.

Two fails, and I'd worry.

How far to power up? 100% is sitting on a bus bar, this saves windings, not arms and wires. (fuse).

Speaking of wire, there is a resistance wire to be checked for if I remember right.

Its the white cloth, with stiff "silver" wire. 

 Not just that any old wire is there, but is it the special wire? I've seen it replaced with normal wire because of cooked wire cloth. The correct bulbs can make a difference in the performance too.

Match lines to what your normally expected max draw is.

No need for 10 amps to flow, if you seldom even use 5amps.

Add the four lines total amp capability, and with even 7amp breakers on the outer ones, you surpass original maximums.

Don't forgo the internal breaker repair, but use something superior on the exterior .  

  Do you have a PW whistle to test with? Use it while testing a disc.

A diode will work better on new trains for sure. Some of my post war is finicky though.

I have PW tenders that don't like little transformers, or small diodes set-ups, but will sing for an old 50watt or big diode.

Go big.

While unplugged Have you tried moving the disc, and fastener around, to re-establish a fresh connection?

Thanks to everyone for all the help and comments.

The workweek has begun so I'll likely not work on this till Saturday, but thanks again to all.

Best...Rich

quote:

While unplugged Have you tried moving the disc, and fastener around, to re-establish a fresh connection?

If you try to move an original rectifier disk around, you can damage the coating. Has this worked for you?

Rich,

Thanks for posting your initial questions.  I picked up an old ZW 275W.  I got a lot of advice on how to protect my trains (and my house from burning down ), and think I am good.  I am going to take some time to review all the comments here, and see how it stacks up to what I already did.  BTW, last evening I was running a TIU and conventional with it, and everything is still intact.  

Mark I'm glad your TIU remote and all DCS systems is working great, best of luck and keep in touch Alan

P.S. are you going to YORK

Alan your friend always!

Alan,

Thank you for asking and thank you for the phone call back when the J was giving me trouble!  I just ran it last night powering the TIU with the ZW when my daughter and son-in-law were over.  She asked to see it, but he has no interest in trains, so if I was to have trouble, it would have been when visitors are over.    Ran like a top!  Yes, I have circuit breakers and TVRs installed on the ZW.

Thank you for asking about York!  No, I won't be able to go this fall.  I hope to make it next year, my guess is the fall session.

Fuzzy photos show one example of how I wired TVS between four hot and "U" pw ZW terminals.

Also shown a photo of a 10 amp Potter-Brumfield breaker, typical of those connected inline on each ZW hot posts A,B,C and D.[breakers from Mouser Electronics, about $4-5 ea.].

Initially, I protected my pw ZWs with cartridge fuses in old AC fuse blocks. Then with the 10 amp Potter-Brumfield breakers but eventually replaced the pw ZWs/breakers with 180 watt PowerHouse transformers.

Dewey,

That is just what I did.  Different brand breaker, but same configuration.

I found a guy here on the forum that can totally check and refurb the ZW.  It is what I did.  Just to be sure.  If you want his info let me know.