Need Fast Acting breakers for Post War transformers

I use marine push-button reset only breakers, which I order from Defender Marine.  Price is right.  Variety of amp ratings, and either slip on/solder or screw terminals.  I would not use more than 10-amp.  5 or 7 would be preferable, depnding on transformer size and number of trains.

 

http://search.defender.com/?ex...kers&x=5&y=7

 

 

Jd,

   I still use the Scott Type 10 Amp breakers in front of all my KW & ZW transformers,

Electric LLC, bought Scott's a while back, I do believe they are now a sponsor on the OGR, you can purchase the breaker banks from them.  They work great, easy to reset, just kill the power and push in the breaker button, repower the layout and go back to playing with the trains, very easy for the kids to handle.  You might consider even going lighter if they still carry the 5-7 ampers.

PCRR/Dave

 

If you can trust the kids to leave the adjustment knob alone, Postwar Lionel #91 adjustable electromagnetic circuit breakers (manual reset) work great.

They can be adjusted to trip instantly on a derailment.

 

The kids learned very quickly how to put the trains back on the track and reset the breaker.

I recently purchased TE Connectivity brand 10 amp circuit breakers that are push to reset from Mouser.com, part #655-W28-XQ1A-10 for $3.40 each.  Small and simple to use is what I'm all about and these will do the trick, you might want to try them. 

 

Have fun!

 

Paul

C W,

   Although I love that old Lionel #91 piece of breaker equipment it was engineered to

a 15 Amp min Breaker point, and the newer engines need a fail safe point 10 Amps or below to safe guard them.  The older engines like my Lionel 50's era GP7 work absolutely fine with it however, the old Tin Plate 263E also.  I do wish Lionel would have made this adjustable breaker a min 10 Amp set up, however the 15 Amp breaker point, is just a little to high for the new modern engines.

 

Paul,

   The TE's are darn good breakers and work well for a life time also.  TE makes 5-7's also, I do believe.  The draw back is you have to build your own box, or mount them in some other way for usage with the layout.  They work best with a soldered wire set up also.

PCRR/Dave

15 amps is too high to protect any transformer.  The post doesn't say what he has, but for some, likefor example a 100 watt transformer, max breaker or fuse should be 5 amp.

I use PTCs (polyswitch/polyfuse) in a terminal strip, mounted inside a small project box.  For the floor loops we have up, I use a 3A hold for my passenger train, and a 2A hold for my freight.  This took some experimentation.  I have a 3 yr old, so I keep things low.  Common is protected with a 10A automotive breaker.  This is for a KW.

 

quote:

Although I love that old Lionel #91 piece of breaker equipment it was engineered to

a 15 Amp min Breaker point, and the newer engines need a fail safe point 10 Amps or below to safe guard them.  The older engines like my Lionel 50's era GP7 work absolutely fine with it however, the old Tin Plate 263E also.  I do wish Lionel would have made this adjustable breaker a min 10 Amp set up, however the 15 Amp breaker point, is just a little to high for the new modern engines

 

The #91 circuit breakers are electromagnetic and are adjustable. They will trip at fairly low current values, if that is what you want. The Lionel service manual documentation gives the range as 1 to 6 amps.

Since they are magnetic, there is no waiting for a bi-metallic strip to heat up. (The internal breakers in Postwar Lionel train transformers use a bi-metallic strip)

They would be useless if they only tripped at 15 amps.
Maybe Dave is thinking of the prewar #91 breakers?

Dave,

 

I'm planning on building them into a new control panel so they will be accessible, my grandson received a Thomas the Tank Engine for Christmas and I foresee a lot of derailments in the future. 

 

Paul

Might be a lot simpler to just buy a Z-1000 transformer.

CW,

   If that is the case, these adjustable breakers are just what I want, I will be looking to pick up a few sets of these post war #91 Lionel adjustable electromagnetic breakers, where can I get them or order them from, CW?  The only adjustable Lionel breakers I ever knew existed, were the pre War adjustable breakers, this is music to my ears.

CW from were do I order or purchase these post war #91 Lionel adjustable electromagnetic breakers.  These babies have to be very old equipment now.

PCRR/Dave

 

Mfr's Part #: 2-5700-IG1-P10-DD-4A
Allied Stk #: 70128886

Jmiller,

   Nice set up at a very reasonable cost, no doubt about it, however did you read CW's post about the Lionel #91 adjustable post war breakers, being a 1-6 amp min adjustable, and no case building necessary, how did I ever miss these post war adjustable breakers.  If they are readily available, this is definitely an item to have for modern DCS & Legacy trains, especially when running ZW & KW transformers.

Somebody some place still must have some of these post war #91 adjustable breakers hidden in their train shop, some place.

PCRR/Dave

 

I have a Z4000 for track power.  I belong to a small club that meets at members houses and one of the members recommended the circuit breakers.  He ordered a bunch for the members.  The ones I found were a little cheaper and have tripped a few times when I derailed a stopped train one the tracks.

quote:

Might be a lot simpler to just buy a Z-1000 transformer.

 

With all the choices presented on this thread, I can see why some folks would feel this way.

quote:

If that is the case, these adjustable breakers are just what I want, I will be looking to pick up a few sets of these post war #91 Lionel adjustable electromagnetic breakers, where can I get them or order them from, CW?  The only adjustable Lionel breakers I ever knew existed, were the pre War adjustable breakers, this is music to my ears.

CW from were do I order or purchase these post war #91 Lionel adjustable electromagnetic breakers.  These babies have to be very old equipment now.

 

Old is a relative term. I think they are from the early 1960's, they are not old to me.

They show up at train shows and on Ebay.

What is the fastest reaction time you can get out of a thermal circuit breaker? Of all the ones I've tried, it seemed you could count off seconds between the moment the circuit broke and when the breaker tripped. For this reason I reevaluated my needs and determined for the rare times I need the protection, buzz fuses are a more economical way to go. I understand though, with small children operating unsupervised why one would prefer a circuit breaker.

Check out the times listed in the Lionel service manual for their transformer's built-in breakers (thermal):

Page 1

page 2

 

A good ZW breaker will take 11 - 40 seconds at 30 amps, as measured by a 5F test set. If this doesn't convince people to use external circuit protection, I don't think anything will.

 

The only Toy Train transformer that I have seen with a built-in electromagnetic breaker was a large Marx transformer.

Agreeing about the need for external circuit protection. Is there any thermal circuit breaker that works better than a Buzz fuse?

Why do you think fuses are faster?  Go to the Buss web site and check the blow times at various percentages of overloads.

 

Thermal breakers and fuses reaction times greatly depend on the percentage of overload.

I posted this information on another thread.  Check out these.  I bought two, one for each side of my Z4000,  $18 each and the plastic box $.69

 

http://www.alliedelec.com/sear...il.aspx?SKU=70128886

Call it what you will, however, a toy train is and would be a poor choice for a, electronic  "baby-sitter". Why not keep it (a toy train) a special time when you're together? There is an ever growing field of gadgets created just for this purpose. There's just too many gray areas for a child to be left unattended for any period of time. Once again this is IMHO.

 

"Pappy" 

Baby sitter!  A good circuit breaker is a user sitter.  Many's the time a breaker will open for a reason not known by me until it opens.

 

jmiller, I think that $18 for a push button thermal breaker is overpriced.  I've been using marine breakers for less than half that.

Overpriced for sure.....this is what I have hooked to my ZW....

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Blue-S...495279f9&vxp=mtr

 

Roger

Who said a Toy Train is a baby sitter?

At what age should a child be able to run a train without close supervision?
With a proper, fast acting circuit breaker, and a power strip, what is dangerous about playing with a Lionel Train?

 

IMHO, there are too many "helicopter" parents out there who don't give their children an opportunity to learn independence.

In my experience when I have a derailment, using an external thermal circuit breaker, I easily reach the kill switch before the breaker trips. I can count off the seconds before it trips, sometimes into double digits. Using fuses the fuse always blows before I reach the kill switch. As I stated I rarely have the need for the external protection but I'm glad I have it. If I knew of a specific breaker that works faster than the fuses I'd try it out because I like convenience.

 

quote:

In my experience when I have a derailment, using an external thermal circuit breaker, I easily reach the kill switch before the breaker trips.

 

Those #91 breakers I've been promoting trip instantly.

I checked, and only saw one on Ebay today.

I wouldn't pay over twenty dollars (including shipping) for a good, used one.

 

Isn't there a modern equivalent?

Matt, I don;t use smoke.  On the circuits where I don't have more than 2 locos moving at a time, I use 5-amp breakers in series with 10-amp fuses.  On circvuits where I regularly have 3 or more runing, I use 7.5 amp breakers in series with 10-amp fuses.  The breakers often open before the Z4000 internal breaker, and I have never replaced one of the fuses.

 

I would agree that an accurate electromagnetic breaker is probably the quickest to blow.

On my old layout using 027 tubular track I was using 10amp BUSS glass fuses and they would pop at the slightest short or derailment.  I got tired of replacing fuses, so on my new layout using the same KW's but switched to Gargraves track and Ross Custom switches I decided to go with the TE 10amp breakers.  Are 10amp breakers too high?

 

Paul

CW,

   That is the problem, no modern version that I have ever heard of exists.  $20.00

is still pretty high also, especially for an old time adjustable breaker.  Maybe that is why these breakers are not used very much, and why I never knew about them, on the expensive side for sure.  With the Scott type I am paying no where near that and get a breaker bank of 4 breakers.

PCRR/Dave

 

 

Dave, Is this the one you're using?

http://www.shop.trainelectrics...el-10-Amp-CB4-10.htm

 

JT,

   Yes that is the Scott type breakers I purchased long ago for $12.00 a set, at that time they were available in 5,7 and 10 Amp sets.  Seems they are much more expensive now!

PCRR/Dave

There IS a modern equivalent to the Lionel #91 electromagnetic breakers. It's called a PSX - AC. There have been several threads on them in the last 12 months. I have 2 of them in use, they trip instantly at the current level that you set it at.

Fec fan,

   Outstanding Info - Please post some pictures of this PSX-AC for us to see, if you can, and a contact point for purchase that you use.

PCRR/Dave

Thanks, Dave.  Yep, they've gone up but I do like that they come all set up in the box. And 4 breakers for each output on my ZW. 

PCRR/Dave: I'm at work now, so I'll try to post a picture when I get home. As for a seller, I got mine from Tony's Train Exchange. Just Google them, or go to www.tonystrains.com   . They are expensive(upwards of 49$) but they do work. The company that developed them is DCC Specialties-- 

Today, I just received my shipment of circuit breakers to use with my ZW transformers.  I got them from Mouser Electronics (www.mouser.com).  They are Carling Circuit Breakers (7amp) Manufacturer No. CMB-073-11C3N-B-A; Mouser Part No. 691-CMB07311C3NBA.  I ordered 10 at $1.84 each for a total of $18.40.  Economy shipping is $4.99 (I ordered on 1/4/15 and I got them today--4 days traveling from Texas to PA).  A bargain by any means.  They are resettable.  I am anxious to try them out.  

Thermal Circuit Breakers are only good for protecting the transformer. Those Carling 7 amp CB's have a time chart that shows for a 15 amp draw(200%) which is what a PW ZW can put out, that it will take 4 to 30 seconds for it to trip. Fine if all you have are Postwar Lionel-- any modern engine will be toast. Of course, the electronics in our modern equipment will have died in the first 1/10 th of a second of the event. That's why I use the PSX- AC units.