Need Fast Acting breakers for Post War transformers

Right you are Jim, but not nearly as much fun.

Have you check out http://www.trainelectrics.com/

If he does not have an item, he will try to find the item.

Plus he is from Michigan. 

I have to run and I don't have time to read all of the post, so if not brought up already go "Train Electric" one of our sponcers and check out their TVS Diode assembly that comes with fast acting fuses.

Unless we use real high end magnetic type equipment breakers are just not fast enough to protect the engines electronics. As for the TVS diodes we accross the board agree that they work.

The point that many are missing, repeatedly, or just not understanding, is that there are no breakers fast enough to protect the engines' electronics, as that is not their function!

Please do not confuse current with voltage.

DUPLICATE RESPONSE INITIALLY HELD FOR REVIEW.......MY FAULT SORRY.

John J. Jiuliano

Sorry I missed your post and question--I was on a "honey do" mission.

The source of my TVS is Mouser Electronics 1-800-346-6873.

100 units cost me about 39 cents each. 

The Mouser part & catalog # is: 576-1.5KE36CA. Mfg's # 1.5KE36CA.

It is bi-directional and is connected like a short--between the Hot and Common conductors[across the line].

Alternative number and address:

1-817-804-3800

Mouser Electronics

Clayton Carter, 1000 North Main St

Mansfield Texas, 76063

I first learned of the Transient Voltage Supressor from an O-gauger and Engineer named Cam ["Penn Station"]during the early days of the Forum and during the early marketing of electronic equipped engines. Later Bob Nelson, EE, of the CTT Forum frequently addressed the need for and function of the TVS. 

We are fortunate to have learned from these folks and in recent years Dale Manquen and gunrunnerjohn, both EEs and Forum O-gaugers who understand the low voltage and electronic characteristics of our modern toys and freely share their knowledge with us.

TVS was not a component that a "Sparktrician" would come across in every day residential or commercial work.

Dewey, Thanks for the info on where to get the TVS' and parts number. Gunrunner John had also given me info from digikey which is probably the same part, since I noticed Mouser's mfg. part # is  similar to digikey's mfg. part #. It doesn't matter where the order is placed, as long as the results are the same. I didn't realize gunrunnerjohn was an EE. It's nice to know someones credentials, and you can trust their input. Thank-you to you and gunrunnerjohn for schooling me. I'm the type of guy that has to know the who, what ,where,when, how & why of things.

Steam Forever & God Bless AMERICA  John

FWIW:  I just ordered 30 from Mouser at $0.555 each, or $16.65, plus $4.99 for shipping via USPS economy (3-7 days), the cheapest shipping listed.

Digikey has them for the same price, and shipping is even cheaper, I end up paying a couple of bucks for small orders via First Class Mail: 1.5KE36CA at Digikey

Below is a video of a test I ran on my "new" #91 breakers. It's a short clip demonstrating their speed in combo with several other "breakers" that were part of my back-up system.

A description of what you will see....

1. I have a consist running on the track. A PW 2343F3 ABA pulling a good sized consist behind. Measured with my Fluke Clamp meter it was pulling approx. 4.5amps

2. The breakers I have connected to that track are.....a modern, sealed, thermal breaker in my ZW (I don't remember what the amp rating is, but it's obviously the slowest breaker in this list), a 5 amp Blue Sea marine thermal breaker, and a 4 amp PTC breaker (I think it's trip amp rating is somewhere around 6amp and the #91 (which is visible in the clip)

3. I had my wife drop a round piece of screen ( I use as a smoke diffuser in a building smokestack) from a height of about 2 inches directly onto a UCS track (aiming to hit the center rail bulge at the magnet and the outer rail on that side).  I chose the screen because.....it's metal and very light. Good test of sensitivity.

4. If you run the video a few times, you will see the spark when the screen hits the track. And you'll hear a veritable simultaneous "clack" of the 91 breaker and it's illumination. 

5. None of the other breakers tripped

-Roger

Only one breaker will open.

But it will be the fastest one

Or the one with the lowest setting.  A slow 5-map breaker may, or may not, blow faster than a fast 10-amp one.  My 5-amp thermal breakers frequently blow before the much quicker 10-amp electronic ones in the Z4000.  But in any event, you seem to have solved your problem.  Do be aware, as noted above, that a circuit breaker or fuse doesn't protect the board, but a TVS does.

I think the point is.....wouldn't you rather have the fastest protection for  your system? Or at least dial it in to be fast without nuisance trips?   And, as indicated above.....I use TVS diodes.

Roger

quote:

My 5-amp thermal breakers frequently blow before the much quicker 10-amp electronic ones in the Z4000. 

Maybe its because you don't exceed 10 amps. If you had an ammeter on the line, what was the setting?

Is there something wrong with having more than one circuit breaker in series? I am not aware of any problems doing so with magnetic or thermal breakers, you can even mix them. I don't know anything about solid state (electronic) breakers.

Nothing wrong with having multiple breakers, or breakers and fuses, or whatever you like.  It's the old "weakest link" theory, one would assume the weakest one would be the one to trip.

I think the breakers in the Z-4000 are thermal breakers, not electronic models.

I thought I had heard otherwise, but I'm sure someone out there in forumland knows the answer.

Sooner or later, after enough use most everything will fail.  So I believe in reduncancy.  Breaking a short does create an arc.

Frankly, Roger, I wouldn't trust electrical equipment that old.  An electromagnetic CB should open more quickly than a thermal CB or fuse of the same rating, unless it contains hydraulic opening delay to accommodate short-term overloads.  Unfortunately, I have been unable to find any suitable electromagnetics browsing the internet.

I use 5-amp breakers on 5 of my 6 power districts, so on any overload they open rather rapidly.  I frequently draw over 6 amps (which I see is the limit for a #91) on the 6th district, so I went to a 7.5 amp there.  These CBs are in addition to the internal breakers in a Z4000 and external 10-amp fuses on the ZW circuits.  The Z4000 only opens if there is a bad short; the 5-amps open  frequently on the slightest derailment.  The 10-amp fuses have never blown.

quote:

Frankly, Roger, I wouldn't trust electrical equipment that old.

Why? Have you ever examined the construction of a Postwar #91 circuit breaker?

What are the parts that will wear out or break down?

Can you post some photos of worn or defective parts?

Gunrunner, there are 4 thermal CB's in a Z4000. one for each main output and one each for the 10V and 14V accessory outputs. The main breakers are in between the transformer and the entire control circuitry of the Z. Each main output does have microprocessor controlled current limiting and short circuit protection.

 my information is derived from the Z4000 patent---

RJR,

I appreciate your concern about the 91s, but I'm not worried about it. I've always used layers of redundancy of protection on my layout and will continue to do so. My 5 amp thermals are still in place (and they were my main "reliable" protection before). What I've seen over the last few days with these 91s is incredibly fast reaction times (if not instant). I really would be curious to hear from folks who repeat the test I did in the video with their protection system and see if they get that kind of instant response. Drop the screen on the track with those 5,8 and 10 amp thermals and see what happens. I see how much slower my 5s are, so I can't imagine how slow the bigger ones are unless one runs very big loads. 

Good thread

-Roger

You can get TVS's and breakers from Scott's.  Quickly read through the replies here.  There is also an OGR Back Shop video on building your own quick acting breaker box.  I did that years ago.  I use the breakers and TVS.

Correct, but those are for higher currents and are unlikely to properly protect the load.

GRJ, so I have your pronoun references correct:  The microprocessor current limiting is for more than 10 amps?

When the Z4000 is used with the Z4k receiver, a breaker somewhere opens very fast, but the red light in the Z4000 doesn't come on.  How is this protection accomplished.

Roger, as long as you have redundancy, you're safe regardless of the #91's age.

I note no one has come forward with a source for modern electromagnetic breakers appropriate for model trains.  Use of these also raises a question of whether the coil in series with the power line can have an effect on a DCS or other command signal strength.

It should also be remembered that "overcurrent" is a relative term:  it's relative to what the current is flowing through.  6 or 7 amps is not generally considered overcurrent, unless it's flowing through something like an HO PS2 board or the spring on a pickup roller.  You can generate a lot of heat with a current that a transformer can safely provide.

Hard to tell from the patent info, but it appears that they have one electronic over current sensing circuit, and depend on the breakers for individual channel protection.  I can short the output of my Z4000, and the thermal breaker trips, so it seems the over-current sensor is not tripping first.

GRJ, that sketch seems to show that each AUX circuit has a separate secondar coil, but both track circuits share one?????

Any idea about my question regarding the Z4k receiver?

Gentlemen,

   Because the TIU has its own built in TVS and it works really well I do not use an additional TVS, however I do use additional 5-10 Amp Scott type breakers between all my transformers even the Z4K and have had the Scott breakers pop from time to time,

especially when I was running the old Lionel high voltage switches all Daisy chained together on track power, in reality this is what led to the LED replacement bulbs in all the old switches & controllers and the separate adjustable ZW channel to power all the switches.  Not one time did I have a TVS problem on my multi level layout, the TIU did it's job perfectly.

Now I do have a question, with the addition of the new Legacy 990 Base, do I need a TVS in front of the Legacy 990 base?  The Legacy 990 Base runs directly to the tracks not thru the TIU, TVS safe guard.

PCRR/Dave

Not crystal clear to me, but I know the thermal breakers go before any internal current limiting if I put a high load on the one channel fo the Z4000.