Golden Gate Depot Passenger Cars

my first purchase of GGD passenger coaches years ago elicited the same surprise, no couplers. they're following an O scale tradtion of many years, where the buyers adds the coupler of their liking.

BTW, passenger cars from Sunset, PSC, Sunnyside, Calumet Shops are way more expensive than these.

prr man,

thanks for the helpful news

I have been in 2 rail a long time - I converted from 3 rail back in the 70s.

So I was not surprised that the GGD cars had no couplers. Most O Scale cars I have bought come without couplers when new. They used to come without trucks too!

That changed when the big mfg started bringing in the plastic stuff. but then they didn't add Kadees, but came up with their own proprietary designs - such as Atlas and Weaver which are more or less incompatible with Kadees. They will couple - but don't really uncouple when desired.

So I am not disappointed that couplers did not come with the cars.

Especially when a decent scale size car in brass costs about 4 times as much.

Better than big lobster claws! I think only Weaver, Atlas and K-Line (pre-Lionel) manufactured their own couplers to go into 2 rail cars. Everyone else including new release MTH pre-drills Kadee compatible holes.

You're better off buying KD couplers (if those are what you like) from a source other than Sunset. For some reason, their price for KDs is way higher than the prices charged by most hobby shops/mail-order firms.

As to the price of GGD cars, the only comparable pastic-bodied cars are those from Atlas & Weaver. In the opinion of many O Scalers, approx $150 or less per car for this type of construction at today's price levels strains budgets much less than $400+ for a brass import passenger car.

I cannot resist taking a shot at 1000 brass engine without a pre-factory built accommodation for a drop in Kaydee or similar. )Edit, on the front Pilot.

Pass Cars some times require a coupler of a kind. It is nice that the Brass Items (What few I own) are pre drilled for Kadee.

Anyone remember the old IHC/Riv scale cars with the Horn hooks in HO? Those had a two inch shank under the truck.

Hi,
Is anyone using the new KD 816's with the plastic draft gear box and metal coupler on these aluminum cars?
Regards,
Ed

Your Golden Gate cars are from the most expensive models.. Don't feel bad about the couplers although I kind of feel sorry for you if you have never installed couplers before. Some of the GGD cars are an absolute atrocity to install any kind of 2 rail couplers on. What is up with that little rectangle shaped plastic deal with the holes? YIKES!

Out of all the passenger car/train projects done in brass only the following came with Kadee couplers installed that I can think of. All three of these sets include models that pencil out to about $800-$950 a car.

*Pecos River Brass Rio Grande Prospector/Royal Gorge cars
*PSC 1947 lightweight Empire Builder
*PSC 1935 heavyweight Empire Builder

*Lionel Smithsonian Pullman cars had a dummy scale coupler factory installed; however Kadee 805's are included in the box.

Even the last ATSF heavyweights that PRB did in 2000 included the plastic 804's but they were not installed.

Key Model Imports PA's from 2009 did not come with Kadee couplers installed; and I don't think the Early E Units will either.

It is kind of a tradition that the modeler chooses the kind of coupler they want. Thank goodness Atlas O refined its older coupler to a more reliable Kadee like design. The old Atlas coupler trip pins fall out and the knuckles end up on the ties... along with half you train... On a 7000 square foot layout this is a bit of a frustration; its a 10 minute affair to get to your train!

I am eager to see an Evolution Standard Gauge Coupler from San Juan.

What is up with that little rectangle shaped plastic deal with the holes?

Erik, they are mounting shims for the coupler boxes. they get the gear below the diaphragm.

quote:

Originally posted by PRR Man:
What is up with that little rectangle shaped plastic deal with the holes?

Erik, they are mounting shims for the coupler boxes. they get the gear below the diaphragm.

I know Chris... Its the most pathetic design yet, IMHO. I don't know your operations but on my layout these cute little boxes twist and change the coupler height. I just love a train that splits in two.

I redesigned and built a coupler mounting system using styrene and tapping and drilling in a nice full "draft box" mount instead of that poor excuse for a coupler mount...

I am sorry, it most certainly was an after thought. The alternative is no passenger cars? I buy brass obviously but I am not an advocate for brass or plastic/aluminum.. I just want good stuff that works right like it should.

Erik,

I recently purchased a set of N&W Powhatten Arrow cars and The N&W J that went with this set from a friend. Overland had the foresight to install Kadee 804's in all pieces because they were the best available couplers. In their later years of O scale production, Overland really had their act together.

Tom Mapes

How about the GGD Pullman Coach and other sets?

quote:

Originally posted by Erik C Lindgren:
The old Atlas coupler trip pins fall out and the knuckles end up on the ties... along with half you train... On a 7000 square foot layout this is a bit of a frustration; its a 10 minute affair to get to your train!

Well, you want a model that's just like the prototype, don't you ? 10 minutes on a fast clock sounds about right for a busted knuckle -- and the other trains just sit, and the dispatcher rethinks the rest of his shift -- and maybe a RFE needs to examine YOUR train handling, which is "obviously" the cause....

Welcome to real railroading !

Best, SZ

quote:

Originally posted by Steinzeit:

quote:

Originally posted by Erik C Lindgren:
The old Atlas coupler trip pins fall out and the knuckles end up on the ties... along with half you train... On a 7000 square foot layout this is a bit of a frustration; its a 10 minute affair to get to your train!

Well, you want a model that's just like the prototype, don't you ? 10 minutes on a fast clock sounds about right for a busted knuckle -- and the other trains just sit, and the dispatcher rethinks the rest of his shift -- and maybe a RFE needs to examine YOUR train handling, which is "obviously" the cause....

Welcome to real railroading !

Best, SZ

Dear Steinzeit,

Your comments can be taken one of two ways.. The intended comment(s) I made is in regard to the poor design of the first generation Atlas O couplers not poor train handling as your comment may also be taken. I beg your pardon?

Atlas generation one couplers are awful. Simply put they fall apart sir.

We operate trains that have a draw-bar weight of nearly 50-90 lbs. and higher. Take 35-60 cars and 2.7% grades; this makes your comment about running a real railroad pretty accurate to a degree.

Trains on this railroad bunch up and slack out like the real thing. Strictly enforced 35 S-MPH speed limits on most of the mainline. Our dispatchers often times due to equipment failures send the entire railroad into a waiting pattern for as long as an hour during an ops session.

We operate a single track mainline with passing sidings, no triple track, no Lionel 175 mph loops, no high speed curves although most if not all our turns are super elevated. Furthermore over 90% of our track work is hand laid, and hand laid track has a personality like a "real" railroad. It changes based on humidity and other conditions.

I must confess that having equipment designed to operate over plastic tied flex track is nice for those with flex tracked railroads but the Kadee was designed for weight, movement, slack, inevitable sudden jerks, and anything else you can throw at them. Yes it takes a degree of skill to operate on our layout; it is not an easy affair to become qualified as an engineer and it should be difficult. A runaway set of brass passenger cars can cost $15,000-$20,000 and generally that train does not belong to the engineer. When it hits the floor who pays?

Mistakes happen but a 6 month training period and close examination of all our engine crews are a top priority. Top condition track work and equipment is paramount. Inspections are regular on equipment and track, and equipment testing is a guarantee. We operate, we don't display.

I mean no harm, and not trying to be mean just telling it like it is. Atlas O first generation couplers have been banned from our railroad for years, and will continue to be.

quote:

Originally posted by docj1a:
Erik,

I recently purchased a set of N&W Powhatten Arrow cars and The N&W J that went with this set from a friend. Overland had the foresight to install Kadee 804's in all pieces because they were the best available couplers. In their later years of O scale production, Overland really had their act together.

Tom Mapes

Tom, I forgot about those cars, they are spectacular. And yes they sure did have couplers installed!

One more thing Steinzeit,

Please no hard feelings; I have learned that making comments on these blogs can be easily taken the wrong way, emoticons and missed expressions, and intended fun can be taken the wrong way.

One other thing, Atlas O recently redesigned their coupler system. If that doesn't say something about the first generation couplers... I forever will hold my peace.

I just got three GGD cars and painted them up for Soo Line. I really did not test run them before I stripped and painted them--and of course there is always a surprise in the wood pile when one takes for granted that everything is going to run just fine.

The coupler thingy is only slightly annoying--the fact that the diaphragms are none working and that installing couplers in the provided holes puts the cars about 5'-6" apart is. So I thought it would be a good idea to put PSC working diaphragms on them--"good planning is the hallmark of success!" YES?

Well moving the couplers back to get the standard 3' between cars was simple enough. Just add some styrene blocking at the correct thickness to the end pieces and then install the Kadee couplers as usual--drill some holes and put them on with 2-56 or 1-80 screws. I chose the 1-80 screws, and drilled for the tap size only to discover that I drilled for 2-56. Easy enough to fix, just use different screws. That in itself is not a problem with the GGD cars but with the car shop foreman. They always think that what they think is absolutely law.

Well after painting, installing new and working diaphragms, installing Kadee couplers at the correct spacing location on the cars, reassembling the cars and putting them on the track, they should run. Man was I on a roll--and the train made it to the first grade crossing. Yep, the coupler pin was too low on two of them and the train was on the cinders.

That fixed another trial was in order--this time the train made it to the first reversing S curve and two of them derailed.

Fast forward to about two weeks later. The GGD trucks have the bolster kin pin off center and the trucks are really not sprung well, in fact they are very frigid (SIC) yes I know the word is for something completely different but these are quite uncooperative and after much tweeking and adjusting and quite frankly the use of a pair of pliers, I did get them to at least run straight.

Curves on a branch line railroad presented a whole new set of problems and these GGD trucks are not really all that great without 1 foot scale flanges normally used on the training rail layout.

I ended up getting a pair of PSC 6 wheel trucks for the coach only, and building a new portion of underframe for each end so the trucks could be mounted with the center king pin arrangement. After a considerable amount of work I finally got it running.

I am very pleased with the GGD cars, especially the two head end cars, and now that the coach is running flawlessly I am very pleased with it as well.

Now to change my Soo Line freight GP-9 to a Passenger GP-9 and things should get better.


RPO head end car--this GGD car is extremely nice


The baggage car is close enough to the Soo Line car, I did not bother to change the doors and the rest is close enough for who it's for.


The coach needed some work to get a facsimile by closing up a pair of windows on the right end of both sides. Other details were more than I wanted to fool with so the car is done. I added new PSC trucks to this car after this photo was taken.


The whole shebang and from a distance it really does look like a 1954 Soo Line day train.


The cars are still a little far apart but they are as close as my curves would permit. They look a whole lot better with the diaphragms closed tight than they do with a 2' space between them.

That's all I have to say about that. Forrest Gump......

Your cars look great Ray!

The toy train nature of these models is still there a little.. but they are getting better! Add a master modeler like yourself and these cars can be superb.

The GGD passenger cars are the only non-brass ones that I know of that are scale length. All the other "plastic" cars are shorties that represent either a very rare protorype, or a figment of the designers imagination to handle sharp curves.

So with that in mind, 100-150 a car is just not too bad compared to Brass ones at 300 plus. And the brass ones also require a lot of tweaking to get to track right.

As for coupler mounting, I did not notice any problems. I have a couple sets of the original P70 coaches and had to make my own plastic shim to get the couplers low enough to match the Kadee gage. But that is typical for scale cars. It was a little anoying but not anywhere near a deal breaker.

As for coupler twisting - 2 screws per coupler box solves that.

And my curves are sharp enough (52 inch min radius) that I did not try to get them any closer.

A note, I did have some tracking problems at first. For the most part, it was because the kingpin screw as too tight. I loosened them a little so the trucks could rotate freely, and it solved that.

I am known as a coupler buster.

HO Scale takes about 13 pounds to break a Kadee metal coupler. Ive done it at the bench. Never had a kadee fail in the train.

In O I am staying with Kadee because I dont know any better. I can very well imagine the forces on them.

In a rail sim 2012 on my other computer I always bust couplers when I hit the bottom of the grade trying to come out of dynamic and leave the train brake on tad too long.

I am glad I stick with the modeling instead of the real thing.

Now trying to get back on topic with these passenger cars I have seen Q4 videos hauling heavyweight B&O in what is to me a commute service. Maybe 3 or 4. One would be a baggage for LCL, the other a RPO the last two would be coach or maybe one will be a small diner.

I am pondering if I should consider this as my commute trainset in O or should I consider the possibility that Sunset may release a Budd Set to fill that duty someday.

While out shoveling snow just after my previous post I thought of other ways that the "prototypical feeling" could be enhanced when you bust a knuckle like that:
- Have someone who's never been to Denver, and is preferably not even a model railroader, phone the dispatcher every minute [ this is fast time here ] and ask if the problem is solved yet.
- While you're "tracking" [ hah ] down the errant knuckle you have to carry a 50 lb sack of flour.
- After the problem is solved, somebody has to dump a bucket of water over you, because a squall came up on the walk back and you had left your rain gear in the locomotive [ or caboose ].
I certainly am glad I didn't include them in my original post !

If the intent of any of my posts is not clear then I've done a poor job of communicating. And certainly a reader is free to interpret them in the manner he or she chooses.

Best regards, SZ