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Hello

Earlier I asked about the pulling power of Lionel's pulling power ,and got great replies.

Had no idea about all the different loco's that where out there

But forgot to even think about about a real GP-7 or 9 could pull if it was pulling loaded  6464 type box cars

Are these  50 or 60 foot cars ?

I really like 6464 box cars and even got the Wife into picking some out

Thanks 

Original Post

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I can imagine the prototype GP-7 or GP-9 could pull a LOT of Lionel 6464 boxcars!

 

If you're looking for info on the Lionel GP engines, you need to be more specific.  The modern Lionel Legacy ones can pull a ton of stuff with dual motors and traction tires.  The older PW or MPC ones with the single AC motor don't have that kind of traction, and they'll be a lot more limited.

 

I believe the Lionel 6464 is modeled after 40 foot boxcars like this one, but I could easily be mistaken.

 

 

Originally Posted by gunrunnerjohn:

 

I believe the Lionel 6464 is modeled after 40 foot boxcars like this one, but I could easily be mistaken. 

I believe the Lionel boxcars of the 6464 type were modeled after the ubiquitous 1937 AAR boxcar (Association of American Railroads standardized design), which was 40' long. They were built into the 1940s, and were in widespread use until well into the 1960s.

 

Another extremely common boxcar was the PS-1 (Pullman Standard), which was built in the 1950's (maybe into the early 60s). Some are still in use today, mostly in Maintenance of Way trains. These are also 40' cars.

 

Last edited by breezinup
Originally Posted by meter man:

Hello 

Thanks 

Its a real GP -7 or 9 that I am asking about 

 

Track topography, type of trucks, weather, curves or tangent.....too many variables to say 'a real GP9 will pull 18 box cars every time' 

If you want to be prototypical with a consist you will need a HUGE layout. 

Make up a train that fits your layout.....looks and runs well.....have fun and don't worry......after all we run on 3 rail track with curves a street car could not handle! 

Last edited by AMCDave

I believe the Lionel boxcars of the 6464 type were modeled after the ubiquitous 1937 AAR boxcar (Association of American Railroads standardized design), which was 40' long.

 

Detail wise a Lionel 6464 boxcar is sort of a mongrel combination of the Murphy rectangular panel style of roof used in the 1930s and into the 1940s with sort of PS-1 like ends.  They were built to be toys and not accurate models.  The length is about right for a 40 foot boxcar but the height and width are too low and narrow for a WW I era USRA boxcar let alone a later, larger car like a 1937 AAR boxcar.

 

How many real freight cars could a real GP7 or GP9 pull?  As others have said, that depends on several factors.  A single Geep switching in a yard could pull a 60 to 80 car train on the level at slow speed with short periods at high amperage to get the train moving.  You would see three or four Geeps assigned to move the same train at higher speed over the road.  More Geeps would be needed if mountain grades were encountered.

 

A modern O gauge Geep model from Atlas, MTH or Lionel with all axles powered and traction tires could probably handle about 40 modern boxcars of any type, including 6464 reproductions, on level track.  If you used postwar 6464s the total would be less due to the comparatively poorly designed, higher friction trucks.  A post war Geep with magnatraction could pull a lot less and generate a lot more heat doing it.

 

Another extremely common boxcar was the PS-1 (Pullman Standard), which was built in the 1950's (maybe into the early 60s). Some are still in use today, mostly in Maintenance of Way trains. These are also 40' cars.

 

Pullman-Standard made their PS-1 boxcars from the late 1940s well into the 1960s.  Both 40 and 50 foot versions were available. 

 

 

Lionel, MTH and Weaver make 1/48 scale 40 foot PS-1 boxcar models. Atlas and MTH make 1/48 scale 50 foot PS-1 models.

 

 

The nice photo of the Lehigh Valley car that John posted is of what is commonly referred to as a postwar AAR boxcar.  It has a different style roof and ends than the 1937 AAR pattern cars.  The Atlas Trainman 40 foot boxcar is the only 1/48 scale model of these extremely common cars.

 

 

 

We now have over 40 different boxcar models available in O scale from 1918 built USRA 40 footers to the Lionel 86' monsters from the 1960s and 70s.  And that is not counting traditional sized models like 6464s.  It is good time to be in O! 

As has been pointed out, there are too many variables for a simple answer.

 

Here's what I know from running GP7's and GP9's on the Santa Fe:  

  1. They are very reliable and durable locomotives.
  2. They will pull a lot of 40-foot boxcars on more-or-less level track.
  3. The more cars they pull, the slower they can pull them.
  4. If you are pulling a lot of cars with a GP7, and you are in the short time ratings but have got yourself into a situation where you are running out of time to get into the clear at the next siding for a first class train, then don't look at the ammeter any longer.  Keep her wide open and keep going.  If necessary, use sand and, if that's not enough, apply 3 to 5 PSI of independent brake to avoid wheel slip.  Hopefully, the siding will be clear, the derail will be off, and you will have a Brakeman who can drop off and sprint for the switch and get you lined in without stopping for the switch.  The geep will almost surely get you to the siding regardless, and you can blow the traction motors cool by putting the reverser on center and opening the throttle to Run-4 while the superior train passes.  The smoke won't last long and the aroma of hot copper will go away.  It might be a little warm in the cab for a while, but that too will pass.  You can throw it in with the venial sins the next time you go to Confession.  A GP7 or GP9 can take a little occasional abuse to keep your personal record from being cluttered up with demerits.  Well-designed and well-built engines, those old geeps.

Therefore, my answer to your question about early geeps' pulling ability is that it is almost always enough. Next time you see a photo of a GP7 or GP9, think about Item 4 above.  That engine has a past which probably includes that scenario.

Last edited by Number 90
Originally Posted by Ted Hikel:

I believe the Lionel boxcars of the 6464 type were modeled after the ubiquitous 1937 AAR boxcar (Association of American Railroads standardized design), which was 40' long.

 

Detail wise a Lionel 6464 boxcar is sort of a mongrel combination of the Murphy rectangular panel style of roof used in the 1930s and into the 1940s with sort of PS-1 like ends.  They were built to be toys and not accurate models.  The length is about right for a 40 foot boxcar but the height and width are too low and narrow for a WW I era USRA boxcar let alone a later, larger car like a 1937 AAR boxcar.

 

I'm sure that's right. Of course, pretty much all the traditional Lionel cars were off scale in height and width. No doubt Lionel's 6464 type was a hybrid model - don't know what the starting point was, although there were innumerable modifications and versions made of the '37 AAR boxcar. Perhaps at the time the 6464 cars were designed the '37 AAR was the most common boxcar on the real railroads, though. There are certainly some similarities.

 

 

LIONEL-6464-725-SCARCE-BLACK-NEW-HAVEN-BOXCAR-MIB-X-SERIES-REMAKE

 

Last edited by breezinup

A GP9 was rated for 1200 tons on my district which had a 1.8 ruling grade. We figured the empty Lt. Wt at 30 tons. So, that would be about 40 cars. We figured a 50 ton capacity + 30 ton Lt. Wt. = 80 tons = 15 cars. Remember these figures are for pulling over the mountain. Lesser grades mean more cars.

Tom:

 

LOL! I think most of us that have railroaded have experienced similar scenarios!  Good story telling.

 

FWIW:

 

On the line that I'm most familiar with (the former Frisco's Ft. Smith Sub, the current rails I work), a GP7 was rated for 770 tons on the 2.69% ruling grade up Boston Mountain.  Roughly, 6 or 7 two-bay hoppers loaded with sand.

 

And Tom is dead on right about GP7's, I have been on 'em as they were grinding out of the tunnel at Winslow, Arkansas. Four Geeps: One with a clogged sander and slipping something awful, one with a "Hot Engine" bell ringing, and the other still two pulling their guts out in Run 8... all at the rip-snortin' speed of about 4 MPH.

 

A GP7 was one of my favorite engines.

 

 

Last edited by laming

Wow, GP7-9's, and 18's!, the Missouri Pacific had a horde of them when I hired out on the mid 1970's.

One experience early in my career, was to take a transfer over MacArthur Bridge from   downtown St. Louis to the C&EI yard up in Mitchell, IL.

Three old geeps tugging tonnage up the approach to the bridge was quite a task. (Don't remember the tonnage).

The thing I remember is that the geeps did not have to be in Notch 8 max out the amp meter. As the units started slipping, kept throttling down eventually down to Notch 2 or 3 and the engines still loading in the red zone,(short time rating), and still slipping a bit and dropping the load and then loading right back to maxing out the amp meter. It made it over without stalling and having to be pushed over the bridge.  

 

The geeps would pull until they slipped and stalled. A lot of it depended on when an engineer would decide that the "Short Time Rating" had been maxed out and just shut down to prevent burning up the traction motors.  We have classes and they always showed pictures of burned out traction motors where the windings came apart because of the excessive heat. I think most engineers, (at least in my mind), ran them until the just stopped pulling.  

 

Dan

Last edited by Diesel Dan

Diesel Dan, those old Geeps would load like that in low throttle positions because they were a "Load Regulator" setup as opposed to the "Throttle Response" setup in newer power.

 

I used to run a a set of four GP10s (GP9s with 645 power assemblies - bigger cylinders for those of you in Rio Linda) on 40 loads up 2.2% almost every day out of Youngstown, Ohio. This grade was right out of the yard and the railroad was all 10 mph anyway, so there was no "momentum" in play here. We would get into the 5-minute short time ratings for about 3 minutes right at the top of the grade on every trip. Of course by then we had already been in the 15-minute zone for about 20 minutes...hmmm.

 

If one of 'em went down, we were dead in the water and would stall. Even on well-sanded rail, the other three did not have enough starting tractive effort to move the train. They would just sit there in Notch 2 with the ammeters pegged, not moving. When that happened (about once every 6 weeks or so) I would have to get a yard crew to come up behind me and shove me over the top. That typically made for a long day.

 

Like I said, put 'er in Number 8 and hang on! 

Last edited by Rich Melvin

This thread certainly brings back a few memories. I started as a brakeman in 1965 and  really  good power was  the GP-9/7s and  the Alco version (RS-11s?) . Trains were about 80 cars longs and sidings about 90 with a power switch and spring on the other end.(CTC)  With 3 or 4 engines you got over the road fairly quickly.   Remember the cement block in the compartment on the short end on some GPs  engines??

 Speaking of Fusee caps , some would stick one in the independent  to prevent bailing off the engine brakes, (stretch braking) 

That "trick" of sticking fusses between the carbody frame and the EPD (Engine Protection Device) certainly carried over into the GP30s, GP35s, GP40s, etc., etc., etc.. I had to go inspect a nice new Seaboard Coast Line GP40 (1968 or 1969), that had had an "engine shutdown & failure". Upon looking into the oil pan, I could quickly see that the crankcase and crankshaft had experienced VERY serious damage. The light bulb came on in my memory, so I checked the carbody door support for the tell tail "flag-stick mark", resulting from a flag-stik being wedged between the EPD and the door frame support. Sure enough, there was the flag-stick still wedged between the door frame support and the Crankcase overpressure button on the EPD. Nobody had bothered to remove the "evidence"! I quickly got the shop manager and showed him, and he took off to phone the SCL Superintendent of Motive Power, plus get someone with a camera. I stayed out of the "big investigation" that ensued over that mess, especial since warranty was denied, although a policy adjustment was made as a result of the initial power assembly failure, but a complete new UTEX 16-645E3 engine had to be installed.

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