Grade Crossing Collision in Pecos, TX (video)

@EscapeRocks posted:

As with aviation, incidents can eventually be traced back to one point of failure.  What may seem obvious to any of us, may not be so.

Actually, most aviation accidents usually are a combination of factors, it's rare that one single factor or failure is the whole cause.  There might be a trigger event that pushes things over the edge, but typically there are a number of factors that all add up to the incident finally happening.  Truthfully, modern aircraft almost always have redundant systems to minimize a single point of failure.  I suspect stuff like trucks and even trains aren't quite as robust as far as redundancy.  After all, you can't just stop and get out when something fails when you're 35,000 feet in the air!

Of course, many accidents, apparently including this one, end up boiling down to the people factor.  The most common cause of aviation accidents are by far us a result of human failures, some estimates put it at 80% or more.  By the same factor, railroad accidents attributed to human error are around 40%.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Actually, most aviation accidents usually are a combination of factors, it's rare that one single factor or failure is the whole cause.  There might be a trigger event that pushes things over the edge, but typically there are a number of factors that all add up to the incident finally happening.  Truthfully, modern aircraft almost always have redundant systems to minimize a single point of failure.  I suspect stuff like trucks and even trains aren't quite as robust as far as redundancy.  After all, you can't just stop and get out when something fails when you're 35,000 feet in the air!

Of course, many accidents, apparently including this one, end up boiling down to the people factor.  The most common cause of aviation accidents are by far us a result of human failures, some estimates put it at 80% or more.  By the same factor, railroad accidents attributed to human error are around 40%.

Haveing investagated more than my share of both fatal and non fatal aircraft accidents I whole heartily agree with what GRJ has to say. The combination of facters GRJ is refering is commonly referred to as the Swiss Cheese Model as in when all the holes line up you have an accident, break any point and you can prevent the event form occurring as breaking the link in a chain of events break the ling and the chain stops. The only link in avaition that they have not been able to break consitently is the human factor one.  Just my thoughts based on my experience.

What a tragedy. The spot where many of us fell in love with the railroad is the very spot train crews cringe at. This is why.

Dave

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think that question is answered in the video.

I rarely unmute the speaker in videos like this, the statement of the obvious from a talking head is  mostly useless, in this case though, I guess they explained travel pre-planning as you have intimated and maybe it should have not gotten stuck.  Also agree with the one comment about it looked like the tractor was disconnected from its load already and that would take more than a minute, unless his trailer kingpin broke.

@martind posted:

The phone number should be posted in every truck either on the dashboard or the glove box.  These accidents should never happen

This is Not intended to be mean spirited, but you obviously are not familiar with the ENS signs yourself, there is no “Universal Number” like 911, to call.

The pertinent phone number, and crossing ID information, need to be gotten from the ENS sign AT THAT CROSSING LOCATION  

Each crossing is specific to a particular railroad, and has its own ID, that the railroad will quickly recognize. The phone number on the ENS sign is supposed to notify the particular dispatch center, which covers the territory the crossing is located in  

Calling 911, would be Better than not making ANY call, but will be Much slower than using the number and crossing ID on the ENS sign

The 911 operator will have to contact the railroad, which will likely have to transfer the call, or direct the 911 operator to call the dispatcher’s phone number, and then the 911 operator won’t likely know the crossing ID, and the railroad doesn’t ID crossings by Road name/number, so More time is lost identifying Which crossing is fouled. Time that can be Very Critical.

Unfortunately, there is no Universal Number that can be put on a Truck’s Dash or Glovebox. What is needed, as has been mentioned repeatedly already, is Better Education about the ENS signs, they have All the Information on them, are right at the scene where they are needed, they are Easily found, IF someone KNOWS to Look for them  

All the necessary information is Right There, unfortunately too many people, often those that should know, don’t know, to look for them

Doug

@EscapeRocks posted:

More information I've read.

It wasn't a true lowboy trailer, rather it was a hydraulic platform trailer.   Hard to tell from the video, but it looks like the type used was not the typical 5th wheel setup.

Similar to this although with a closer coupling, based on the video images.

The Pilot cars were, as is usual, contracted from a pilot car company familiar with the area.Law enforcement escort was part of the permitting requirement by TXDOT.

The trucking company has been in business for a little over 40 years with up-to-date DOT inspections, and has a good safety record per the DOT's SAFER program

I work in aviation logistics where we have FAA and DOT constantly monitoring, so right now I am strictly looking at this tragedy from an operational standpoint.   It will be informative to read the NTSB prelim report in about a month or so. 

As with aviation, incidents can eventually be traced back to one point of failure.  What may seem obvious to any of us, may not be so.

Unfortunately your picture of the Hydraulic Platform trailer isn’t showing.

I did a search, and there were several different types of HP trailers shown, some with many multiple, closely spaced axles, which should not, too the best of my knowledge and understanding, been likely to high center. Other types of HP trailers shown appeared identical, or nearly so, to typical Lowboy, or detachable gooseneck trailers, with fewer, more widely spaced axles, which would be more likely to high center on a rail crossing

The HP trailers shown in my search all appeared to be either Fifth wheel, or Pintle hitched, either of which could be uncoupled rather quickly, likely in well under a minute.

Is the HP trailer that you tried to post, different?

Have been driving professionally for over 36 years, but have never hauled oversize. We have a lot of wind farms here in the PNW, I see a lot of blades and pillars on the road, I will have to pay more attention to how the pillar section are transported around here. The pillar sections that I have seen appear to be larger diameter, and shorter length sections, than the one involved in the Pecos, TX accident  

About eight years ago, I had inquired about a position driving oversize, I had 28 years experience at that time (all with just 2 companies) the transportation manager was very interested in talking to me with my experience, and would be very happy to teach me the specifics of oversize/heavy haul loads, but surprisingly, until it was in 7/8 axles or more, it didn’t pay any more than what I was making at my current company. And the work would have been less predictable or consistent. Even the transportation manager interviewing me agreed, that as much as he would have liked for me to join their team, it just didn’t make any financial sense for me to do so  

Even as specialized as that niche of the industry is, it doesn’t always pay the best, to attract the best possible applicants. Of course that is not to paint all oversize carriers with the same brush, others certainly may be different, and the company that I work for, is in the upper percentile of the industry. It was working conditions, not really pay that had me looking to change, but of course, Pay IS a consideration in such a change.

Unfortunately, the conditions have deteriorated even more, and I had another interview, with a different company, last Friday that was very Promising and I likely will be changing employers next month

BTW,

A Merry Christmas 🎄 and,

a Happy and HEALTHY New Year,

to all here on OGR, and Your Loved Ones

2025 is looking like it will be a Much Better year for me and my Family, may it be for You and your Families as Well

Doug

Today was the first day I went over a RR crossing since this thread was started.  As I mentioned in my previous post I've never noticed the sign before.  I thought that was a bit odd since I consider myself to be very observant.  I told my wife about this thread, and as we were going over the crossing she looked for the sign too.  She saw it and pointed it out to me.  I expected it to be about the size of 'School Crossing' sign, but it was only about 8" by 12" (my guess).  The font was so small.  You couldn't read it unless you went up to the crossing arm.

I was a bit underwhelmed by it, considering how important it is.  But, I now know about it so if I'm ever in a situation that needs reported, I know where to look.

@texgeekboy posted:

Today was the first day I went over a RR crossing since this thread was started.  As I mentioned in my previous post I've never noticed the sign before.  I thought that was a bit odd since I consider myself to be very observant.  I told my wife about this thread, and as we were going over the crossing she looked for the sign too.  She saw it and pointed it out to me.  I expected it to be about the size of 'School Crossing' sign, but it was only about 8" by 12" (my guess).  The font was so small.  You couldn't read it unless you went up to the crossing arm.

I was a bit underwhelmed by it, considering how important it is.  But, I now know about it so if I'm ever in a situation that needs reported, I know where to look.

My point exactly, they should make those signs a lot more noticeable and explicit!

@texgeekboy posted:

Today was the first day I went over a RR crossing since this thread was started.  As I mentioned in my previous post I've never noticed the sign before.  I thought that was a bit odd since I consider myself to be very observant.  I told my wife about this thread, and as we were going over the crossing she looked for the sign too.  She saw it and pointed it out to me.  I expected it to be about the size of 'School Crossing' sign, but it was only about 8" by 12" (my guess).  The font was so small.  You couldn't read it unless you went up to the crossing arm.

I was a bit underwhelmed by it, considering how important it is.  But, I now know about it so if I'm ever in a situation that needs reported, I know where to look.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

My point exactly, they should make those signs a lot more noticeable and explicit!

The Long Island Railroad has had these signs on all grade crossings for years. Didn't know that this was a national standard, figured it was a RR policy.
Agreed that the signs need to be more prominently displayed.

This is an exempt crossing on an old freight spur but the sign is visible below the crossbuck. On automated crossings the RR mounts the sign to the gate mast typically.

Bob

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

My point exactly, they should make those signs a lot more noticeable and explicit!

Back in the 80's I was involved in a grade crossing collision with a flat bed semi loaded with lumber. I won't go into the story other than there were no injuries to life forms. At this time I happened to be on our "Safety Committee" and at our next meeting I brought the subject up about the accident and I stated that there should be a sign posted on the crossbuck or crossing signal that had a phone number to call the Chief Dispatcher in case there was a problem at the crossing and that it had become blocked. The answer that was given back to my idea was..."If we did that, we would get too many prank calls coming in!" True story!
"Safety First" at work again!

John,
You are absolutely correct!!!

Could it be that the sign isn’t intended for a drive by; but more for someone on foot at the scene of a problem?

I'm kind of stuck on the time interval changing from "45 minutes" to "under one minute". Both seem questionable. Would drivers be exiting their cars and milling around/shooting video unless they had been stopped for at least several minutes. Then again, at 45 minutes, you'd think most drivers would have long-since turned around for an alternate route.

@Times Square posted:

I'm kind of stuck on the time interval changing from "45 minutes" to "under one minute". Both seem questionable. Would drivers be exiting their cars and milling around/shooting video unless they had been stopped for at least several minutes. Then again, at 45 minutes, you'd think most drivers would have long-since turned around for an alternate route.

Regardless of whether it was 45 minutes or just a minute, the trucking company is in big trouble. If it were 45 minutes (or so) why wasn't the railroad notified that the crossing was blocked by the stuck truck. If it were just a minute, then the truck started across without bothering to notify the railroad that a slow truck would be crossing with an oversize load and that train traffic should be stopped until the truck had cleared the crossing.

Stuart

@pennsyfan posted:

Could it be that the sign isn’t intended for a drive by; but more for someone on foot at the scene of a problem?

This makes sense to me. I have to admit that until this thread I did not know about these signs but have been looking for them ever since. I have found one at every railroad crossing I passed where I looked for it. Here is a picture where we were stopped at a light that also has a railroad crossing. I don't think it could hurt to make the signs a little bigger but as pennsyfan said the signs may not be for drivers but for someone at the scene.

The percentage of people milling about a stuck 18 wheeler at a crossing that know about the existence of these signs is so low as to be almost zero.  Then, for someone at the site to actually see the sign would be amazing.

Sorry, the signs are almost useless in their current form IMHO.  The earlier post by @juniata guy shows that even when it does work, it was strictly due to the luck of the draw (by having a fireman driving by that knew about the signs).

I would disagree with you on the sign. The crossing identification sign is there because it is required by federal regulation. I am aware that they are there and have used them twice. Both times the railroad was very responsive.   Those groups who are involved with railroad crossings and are a legally regulated profession, like truck drivers and police officers should have been taught about the sign and its use. If they do not know about the sign, it is a failure of their supervisors or managers to properly train and instruct these people.

@David Johnston posted:

I would disagree with you on the sign. The crossing identification sign is there because it is required by federal regulation. I am aware that they are there and have used them twice. Both times the railroad was very responsive.   Those groups who are involved with railroad crossings and are a legally regulated profession, like truck drivers and police officers should have been taught about the sign and its use. If they do not know about the sign, it is a failure of their supervisors or managers to properly train and instruct these people.

David,
Let me add that the general public is also pretty much unaware of these signs. It would be a help if a public service announcement could be broadcast on TV nationwide about these signs, their placement and their use! And, it would help if the signs were larger and more conspicuous!