Hand brakes set while running down grade?

Gregg posted:

What if??? the head end  crew had turned both angle cocks at the cut  before departing to set off the bad order car (draw bar).

Could the  crew on the helpers  cut in  control of the train (I'm  assuming the air was cut in).  or were they  going for a ride anyway like it or not.... I suppose by the time the train line was charged enough they were long gone on their way.??

"...Could the crew on the helpers cut in control of the train..."  
Yes, they could have done that, but they would then face a whole new set of problems.

When the train went into emergency, all the air exited the brake pipe. So there is NO AIR in the train to start with. If the head end crew cut away without setting any hand brakes, there is nothing that could have prevented this from happening. They could have closed the angle cock on the head end of the train and told the helper crew to take the air. But what happens then?

The helper crew cuts in their brake stand and starts to pump up, or "recharge" the brake pipe. However, at some point in that recharge process as the pressure rises in the brake pipe, ALL THE TRAIN BRAKES WILL RELEASE! And the helper crew is once again along for a very dangerous ride that they cannot control.

Without hand brakes being set, this uncontrolled ride scenario was unavoidable.

Now I do have a PTC question:  Suppose a train is split for whatever reason, and the cut which is supposed to remain stopped begins to move without PTC equipment.  Then that cut would be invisible to the railroad if the PTC was not overlayed over a CTC/TCS signalling system?

I'll just put this here...the crew (2nd crew in this case) is very experienced with running over Sand Patch...conductor alone has over 20 years. It is in the timetable that trains encountering air brake issues on Sand Patch may drag the train down the mountain with handbrakes applied. It's in black and white in the time table.

Jeffrey Sessa posted:

 It's in black and white in the time table.

A picture or scan of the page, or corroboration would help...

Jeffrey Sessa posted:

I'll just put this here...the crew (2nd crew in this case) is very experienced with running over Sand Patch...conductor alone has over 20 years. It is in the timetable that trains encountering air brake issues on Sand Patch may drag the train down the mountain with handbrakes applied. It's in black and white in the time table.

Tom,
You may have been right after all!

Any bets on the timetable changing?

That is what I was thinking. With the longer, heavier trains, maybe, they would want to take a look at some of the older rules.  Would clear the crew though, apparently.

Jeffrey Sessa posted:

... It is in the timetable that trains encountering air brake issues on Sand Patch may drag the train down the mountain with handbrakes applied. It's in black and white in the time table.

Then whoever wrote the timetable needs his head examined.

Let's see, I'm starting down a 22 mile long, 1.8% mountain grade, my air isn't working right, I have less than optimum braking power, but I'll set a few hand brakes and bring 'er down the hill anyway and hope for the best. Yeah...sure I will.  

I agree with you, Big Jim. Tom was right after all. 

OGR Webmaster posted:

Jeffrey Sessa posted:

... It is in the timetable that trains encountering air brake issues on Sand Patch may drag the train down the mountain with handbrakes applied. It's in black and white in the time table.

Then whoever wrote the timetable needs his head examined.

Let's see, I'm starting down a 20+ mile long, 1.4% mountain grade, my air isn't working right, I have less than optimum braking power, but I'll set a few hand brakes and bring 'er down the hill anyway and hope for the best. Yeah...sure I will.  

And to add to all of that, there a LOTS of empty cars AHEAD of all the loaded cars, plus all the cars with the hand brakes tied down! What sort of train make-up management is THAT??

I agree with you, Big Jim. Tom was right after all. 

All of this stuff would be laughable......

If lives, on and off the train, were not in danger!

Five locomotives were at the head of the consist. Unconfirmed reports say three of the five units were “dead-in-consist,” meaning that, if true, only two units were bringing the 18,000-ton train down a mountain grade that has a maximum grade of 1.94% near Manila, Pa., which is just east of the summit and Sand Patch Tunnel. Grades fluctuate between 1% and 1.5% until reaching Hyndman. The possibility of operating such a long and heavy train on a descending grade with no more than two powered locomotives is likely to be a factor in NTSB’s investigation, as are also-unconfirmed reports that there were a large number of empty cars at or near the head end.

I would love to see the special  instructions on hand brakes. Hopefully  someone can post it..

Back to winding on hand brakes. Apparently it takes about 3 minutes to tie one  on... 53  cars ,   isn't that 2 hours and 30 minutes just securing the train. WOW!!!

It appears this is also double track , If no roads couldn't someone from the car dept be taxied out , Maybe on the other track.

Winding on hand brakes..... empties are going to heat up and skid in a no time at all. Loads will take a little longer.

How would you ever set out a bad order car near the tail end with this train....?? (completely un -repairable trainline)

We used to double the hills when we stalled. Maybe the crew could have doubled down the hill though. Just a thought.

Again....I would love to see the special  instructions on hand brakes. Hopefully  someone can post it.

If I may show my lack of technical knowledge, just what exactly is dynamic breaking?

Thanks, I think I understand. Would it be fair to say it is like when the power booster goes bad on power brakes?.

Clarence, it would be best if you researched it through an online search engine...but type in "dynamic braking" not "breaking".

Gregg posted:

 

...Back to winding on hand brakes...Apparently it takes about 3 minutes to tie one  on... 53  cars ,   isn't that 2 hours and 30 minutes just securing the train. WOW!!!

 

It doesn't take anywhere near 3 minutes to tie a hand brake! Depending on location, maybe less than 30 sec. And, how many hand brakes you have tied before that...pant...pant...pant! 

We were limited to using two Hi-Ad dynamic brakes, so, I have no problem with that part. It's the hand brake part that seems screwy!!!

We made a pick up one evening and missed getting one hand brake off. That car slid its wheels about two miles before we saw it and stopped. It's a good thing it was still sliding as the build-up would have been enough to derail the car. The resulting flat spot wasn't as bad as one would have thought for the amount of build-up. We were able to take a chisel and knock the build-up off and continue on...making a little more noise than before!

Now that I'm 74 it would take me 3 minutes. I keep  forgetting hand brakes are no longer on the top of the car.

I don't think you can tie on a hand brake on in 30 seconds if you bleed the car off before winding it on .   (yes the car is  still coupled to something)  

Gregg posted:

Now that I'm   74 it would take me 3 minutes.... I kept  forgetting hand brakes are no longer on the top of the car...

I don't think you can tie on a hand brake on in 30 seconds if you bleed the car off before winding it on . 

OK, just why would you bleed the car off before applying the hand brake? If the brakes are already applied (even emergency maybe), it is a LOT easier to apply the hand brake and THEN bleed off the air, if that is indeed necessary at all.

Hot Water posted:

Gregg posted:

Now that I'm   74 it would take me 3 minutes.... I kept  forgetting hand brakes are no longer on the top of the car...

I don't think you can tie on a hand brake on in 30 seconds if you bleed the car off before winding it on . 

OK, just why would you bleed the car off before applying the hand brake? If the brakes are already applied (even emergency maybe), it is a LOT easier to apply the hand brake and THEN bleed off the air, if that is indeed necessary at all.

 

 

 

 Because when the brake  piston is out it takes less chain to tighten on  the hand brake, when the piston eventually  bleeds off the chain is going to tighten up so much that it can become impossible to release or even  break.

Ever had a case where a crew  member couldn't release a hand brake... the fix.. charge the  car . put it into emergency and the hand brake can then be released.

Wyhog, the yard in Sheridan looks pretty flat to me, at least near downtown,  but I guess that can be deceiving.

Gregg posted:

Hot Water posted:

Gregg posted:

Now that I'm   74 it would take me 3 minutes.... I kept  forgetting hand brakes are no longer on the top of the car...

I don't think you can tie on a hand brake on in 30 seconds if you bleed the car off before winding it on . 

OK, just why would you bleed the car off before applying the hand brake? If the brakes are already applied (even emergency maybe), it is a LOT easier to apply the hand brake and THEN bleed off the air, if that is indeed necessary at all.

 

 

 

 Because when the brake  piston is out it takes less chain to tighten on  the hand brake,

What? There is always the same amount of chain to wind-up, no mater whether the brakes are released or applied. Only with the brakes released, the operator must then also be pulling the piston out of the brake cylinder to boot. 

when the piston eventually  bleeds off the chain is going to tighten up so much that it can become impossible to release or even  break.

Never heard of THAT.

Ever had a case where a crew  member couldn't release a hand brake... the fix.. charge the  car . put it into emergency and the hand brake can then be released.

How would that be done at an industrial siding where the receiving customer wants to move the car so as to re-spot it, using his tractor?

Wyhog, the yard in Sheridan looks pretty flat to me, at least near downtown,  but I guess that can be deceiving.

Yes it can be deceiving. When I first moved here in 1975 I thought the railroad was flat from Ranchester to Parkman, until I went up it on a train the first time. Five units on the point, two manned helpers shoving on the rear, and we were going all of about 11 mph. The whole earth surface in that area is tilted so at first glance it doesn't look like much of a grade. Moral, you can't tell a railroad grade just by looking.

Click on the first photo on the page below (not the MRL banner pic at top). This train is climbing the 1.6% grade eastbound at Sheridan. If this train is only one mile long (5280 feet) its rear end is 85 FEET LOWER than its locos, and its rear end is still coming out of the yard. That is not flat.  The locos of this train are approximately at the same spot where the coal train broke in two that I typed about in my post above.

Sheridan Hill

Cars, locos, and trains will easily roll west out of Sheridan Yard itself (and roundhouse tracks)  if not tied down. Look at the 5th, 6th, 7th photos on the page below. That is what happens in Sheridan Yard if a loco loses its air brakes in the roundhouse area and its hand brake is not set. The SD60M has rolled about 1/4th mile before it hit the derail. And this was in sub-zero weather with very stiff bearings and gears.

Yard rollout

Hand brakes and air.
If a car has its air brake set (especially if set in emergency) and you then set the hand brake all you are doing is taking the slack out of the chain until the very last turn, which is harder. Hotwater is of course correct, the length of chain you have to wind up is the same whether or not the air brake is set. It is just easier and thus faster if the air brake is set because the air brake piston already has the brake rigging moved and taught and the brake shoes pressed hard up against the car wheels. Basically then all you are doing when winding the hand brake is taking up chain slack and at the end setting the hand brake ratchet pall. Now if the air brake cylinder pressure leaks off, the tension force that the brake piston was holding is now applied to the hand brake ratchet pall. That makes it very hard or impossible to release the hand brake. So sometimes it is necessary to charge the car's brake system then apply the air brake (possibly in emergency) to re-transfer the tension force of the rigging and shoes from the hand brake pall to the piston. Now with most of the force off the hand brake pall you are able to release the hand brake. Been there, done that, countless times.

 Basically then all you are doing when winding the hand brake is taking up chain slack and at the end setting the hand brake ratchet pall. Now if the air brake cylinder pressure leaks off, the tension force that the brake piston was holding is now applied to the hand brake ratchet pall. That makes it very hard or impossible to release the hand brake. So sometimes it is necessary to charge the car's brake system then apply the air brake (possibly in emergency) to re-transfer the tension force of the rigging and shoes from the hand brake pall to the piston. Now with most of the force off the hand brake pall you are able to release the hand brake. Been there, done that, countless times.

Thank you WYHOG..

Ever had a case where a crew  member couldn't release a hand brake... the fix.. charge the  car . put it into emergency and the hand brake can then be released.

How would that be done at an industrial siding where the receiving customer wants to move the car so as to re-spot it, using his tractor?

I suppose the customer would contact the railway  asking for help... If available a crew could re-spot the car or the railway might send someone from the car dept... If the customer had a big enough tractor  they might just skid the car.    .

Gregg posted:

Hot Water posted:

Gregg posted:

Now that I'm   74 it would take me 3 minutes.... I kept  forgetting hand brakes are no longer on the top of the car...

I don't think you can tie on a hand brake on in 30 seconds if you bleed the car off before winding it on . 

OK, just why would you bleed the car off before applying the hand brake? If the brakes are already applied (even emergency maybe), it is a LOT easier to apply the hand brake and THEN bleed off the air, if that is indeed necessary at all.

 

 

 

 Because when the brake  piston is out it takes less chain to tighten on  the hand brake, when the piston eventually  bleeds off the chain is going to tighten up so much that it can become impossible to release or even  break.

Ever had a case where a crew  member couldn't release a hand brake... the fix.. charge the  car . put it into emergency and the hand brake can then be released.

Sometimes I just have to shake my head, tsk, tsk, tsk.
You don't bleed a car off and then set a hand brake. You use the full service application or even the emergency application to help you set a better hand brake.

Even if a hand brake was at the top of the car, I could tie it up in 30 sec. Now, a pump hand brake on a unit could take forever depending on how much chain needed to be jacked!!!

I normally don't  bled a car off first before winding on the hand brake but   there  might be a few exceptions.... .spotting dangerous car  such as  propane. explosives, rule car etc...

 Now, a pump hand brake on a unit could take forever depending on how much chain needed to be jacked!!!

 I've never heard of a pump hand brake,,, after my days.... Is that a ratchet type..??

30 seconds is pretty good....

Now, a pump hand brake on a unit could take forever depending on how much chain needed to be jacked!!!

That is one reason I liked the BN 305 / BNSF3451 SW1500 yard engine that I worked the last 5 years of my career. That unit's chain guard at the pump type hand brake was missing. So you could just grab the little weight on the free end of the chain and easily pull it down to remove all of the chain slack in one stroke. Then ONE good yank on the ratchet handle tightened the brake. Took all of about 3 seconds to set the hand brake. It made a big difference in my job where I set the unit's hand brake numerous times each day. One time when it went to Glendive Montana for its 90 day inspection it came back with a brand new primer-grey chain guard. I thought "to heck with that" and promptly removed it so I could pull out the chain slack like before. I've actually counted the number of  'pumps' it took to set those 'pump' brakes on other units. Most were in the 18-20 'pumps' range but enough units took 36 'pumps' or more that I got to really hate those things.

How would that be done at an industrial siding where the receiving customer wants to move the car so as to re-spot it, using his tractor?

The industry would use a steel pry bar to turn the hand brake wheel a tiny amount to release just enough pressure from the hand brake ratchet pall that you could release it. Or they would beat on the release lever with a large hammer. But yes, sometimes they did have to call the railroad and the railroad would send a carman to the industry (even if out of town) to get the too tight hand brake to release.

For anyone interested, and with enough knowledge of train operations, the 2005 CSX employee timetable for the Baltimore Division, Keystone SubDiv (includes Sandpatch and Hyndman) can be downloaded here as a pdf file...

CSX employee TT for Sandpatch & Hyndman

The subdivisions are presented in alphabetical order. Each sub has a diagramatical map then its special instructions. The train handling instructions for the Keystone Sub start on page 55. The pages are not themselves numbered but the index at the left will get you to page 55.

Personally, I don't like some of the wording of the document and I am leery of some of the methods. But I don't work there so I won't try to elaborate and will let you form your own opinions.

Here is what the CSX timetable says about hand brakes on Sand Patch. Note that it does NOT permit a train to descend the grade with hand brakes applied. The hand brakes are to be used to HOLD the train in position while recharging the air brake system if the total brake pipe reduction exceeds 18 pounds. This is the only reference to the use of hand brakes on Sand Patch.

There is a lengthy description of how to handle a train coming down the grade. This is needed because the grade is not constant. It's about 1.9% right at the summit, but a couple of miles later it eases to about 1.2%. That's a big difference and requires some unique train handling procedures to get the train down the grade without stalling. CSX allows stretch braking for Eastbound trains (going DOWN the hill) between Mance and Hyndman. This is another point of recognition that getting down this grade requires some delicate train handling.

Also note that the word "Descending" is spelled incorrectly in the timetable.

5559-1 AIR BRAKE INSTRUCTIONS FOR DECENDING SANDPATCH
Brake Pipe Pressure
The brake pipe pressure on the rear of eastbound loaded trains must be 70 lbs. or higher prior to passing over summit at Sand Patch. A running release of the train brake will not be made on eastward freight trains operating in this territory. When the total brake pipe reduction exceeds eighteen (18) pounds on any eastbound freight train operating in this territory, train will be stopped and sufficient hand brakes applied to the head end of the train to hold it on the grade during the recharging procedure. Three (3) hand brakes for each ten (10) cars in train will be sufficient.

Gregg posted:

I've never heard of a pump hand brake,,, after my days.... Is that a ratchet type..??

Yeah, same thing.

Most of ours had chain guards, but, I never thought of grabbing and pulling that greasy chain on those that didn't. One thing good about them is when you pulled the release handle, it came off quick!

Wyhog posted:

For anyone interested, and with enough knowledge of train operations, the 2005 CSX employee timetable for the Baltimore Division, Keystone SubDiv (includes Sandpatch and Hyndman) can be downloaded here as a pdf file.

Is it possible that timetable has been superseded?

WYHOG,

Thanks for the pictures of the yard roll out with the SD60. Number 6 answers a question I've have for quite a while: What does one do to dent the bottom edge of the snow plow??? That edge is 5-6 inches or more above the railhead. Simple: Derail the engine! Now I know which ones have been on the ground and which ones have not.

BTW, thanks to all contributors for the railroading insight on this incident (not accident). It is making for fascinating reading!

Chris

LVHR

If you want to see another way of denting the snow plow pilots of locos look at photo 4 on this page...

Plow ding

I have also dented them on self-guarding switch frogs in yards. All it takes is a slightly low spot in the track just before the frog and the plow will hit the raised frog guards... with a BANG! and a jerk.

Wyhog posted:

The industry would use a steel pry bar to turn the hand brake wheel a tiny amount to release just enough pressure from the hand brake ratchet pall that you could release it. Or they would beat on the release lever with a large hammer. But yes, sometimes they did have to call the railroad and the railroad would send a carman to the industry (even if out of town) to get the too tight hand brake to release.

Humorous side note:  The man on the right was watching me set out a loaded boxcar with a high brake wheel on the house track at Chandler, OK.  After making the cut he says, " Leese, stay on the ground and watch this !! ".   At the top of the ladder he winds the wheel up snug, then while holding the wheel rim, hikes his foot up on the brake wheel spokes and leans back getting another 3 or 4 clicks.  Climbs down and hollers (he always talked gruff and loud), "THAT'S HOW YOU TIE 'EM DOWN ON THE MOUNTAIN !!"

Sometime later he relates to me that he got his butt chewed out royally (which was a reversal of roles) while working on a pool with a Tulsa board conductor.  "So what happened?", I asked. 

"I was tying one down on the mountain and the #$&%^ chain broke.  &*^$% he was mad at me."

Most everyone laid off calls working with Jim, so my extra board timebook had his name in the Conductor column about a zillion times. 

Hey Rob... Great story but what's that thing behind you guys?

Gregg posted:

Hey Rob... Great story but what's that thing behind you guys?

That is ATSF #643 being restored at the Oklahoma Railway Museum...the place where we have the annual RAILROAD DAYS REUNION.

Thank you ... Wish I could join you & the CONDUCTOR...