Has anyone changed vibrator to a real motor in Radar Tower, Control tower? Just tried it!

Ed, didn't Alex Mallaie make one from scratch with the slow motor from Micro-Mark?

boothe memorial railway society.

(video)

MAN! the crowd is fast

and the trains are faster!!!

run em fast and furious!!

Ed I buy a lot small motors and associated parts from Hobbyking.  I sure you will find something there to meet your needs. http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/index.asp

He sure did and its on my layout. The tower runs smooth and slow. Nice job Alex.

Lionel's last control tower from last year has a regular motor not a vibrator one.

A few years ago on the MTH version, I put a small lead weight on the back of the screen to help balance it and that made a big difference..

Marty

Thanks for the replies everyone...

I guess you just have to jump in and try it!

3 hours and some time in the workshop, and I got it to work.




If you remember a post over a year ago on the forum about a battery operated screwdriver that was on sale, that's what I used for a motor.  It needs just one penlight battery to run at a comfortable speed.... about the same noise level, not bad.

I drilled a 1/2" hole in a small block of wood.  The motor friction-fit into the hole, and the block was painted black and screwed into place where the vibrator was.  Screws are still hidden by the round snap on cover.  The screwdriver chuck was then cut off at the right height and super-glued to the radar antenna (which I removed the square drive piece from.).. The rotating antenna drops in just like the original.

Balto,  Thanks for that info.  I bought one a while ago but haven't opened it.  They advertised it as a "maintenance free motor", but I figured they were referring to the vibrator "motor"

Ed

Ingenious. Can you slow it down?

I used this to renovate Disney radar tower...

https://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/272-180629

Mounted it easily below the platform.  Found a pill bottle that was a perfect fit to cover...painted black.  Runs quietly on AC voltage...like most of our accessories.  Has two choices of speeds depending on the combo of gears you easily install.

Another choice.

KD

Don,

Yes, all I have to do is find a .75 volt battery and it'll run about half as fast. Currently it's set up for use with the new and improved high-speed radar equipment. Seriously, I'll try to put a resistor in series if I want to slow it a bit.

...it IS reversible!

I plan on having it in my airport scene on the layout and it will be triggered by a pushbutton that visitors can press. 

Ed

Sounds good.

I'm in the process of redoing my old lionel 163 log loader to a quiet geared drive instead of the noisey AC motor...scares the boy off of using it in origonal form, so I'm trying a 12v DC gear drive- just have to figure out where to mount the new motor and how to couple it to the lower belt drive shaft.

A question for KD:

My MTH Radar Tower just arrived and tomorrow I'm supposed to receive my Faller synchronous motor to attach to it. I ordered that motor at your suggestion in this thread. It's the only thing I could find that would remotely meet the requirements for this. Not sure how the directions will work on the motor and whether they'll be in German. In the photos, it comes with extra pieces.....plastic and metal. The metal ones look like drive axles....not sure what the plastic ones are. How do these things attach to the drive axle that protrudes from the housing?  From what I've researched, I won't have to change the internal cog wheels as supposedly the default setting is 15rpm (what I want). But I do have to attach it to the axle of the radar dish.    Thanks!

Roger

Yo, Roger...

First of all, I worked with a Lionel product.  I haven't compared its construction with an MTH version, so I can only relate accordingly. 

Well it's been a few years since I made the conversion. 

Regardless, the instructions (sic) are in English...and maybe a dozen other languages which cover the Faller market!!

OK, I just dug out my Disney radar tower and took a closer look.  If I can enlist my wife to help (I'm hopeless when it comes to getting photos on this forum!!) I'll try to post some photos later on...they might help to clarify.

Here's what I've found...   Referring to the Walthers sku picture, here's what I used...

The motor unit.  If you want a different rotational speed, you'll need to read the instructions and using the extra gears make the change.  Not hard.  Easy to do.  Can't remember whether I made a change from as-delivered, but I do remember (as a graduate mechanical engineer) taking it apart to see what's involved.  Easy/clever.

OK.  I actually used two common items...a plastic bottle cap and a plastic pill bottle.  The bottle cap, glued to the inside of the round radar platform cap, was to extend the motor down enough to allow engagement of the radar screen.  The cap I used (I'll show it more clearly if I can get a couple photos taken) lowered the motor by about 1/2". 

A hole drilled in the center of the cap allows the motor to be attached.  For this I used the large nut, shown in the Faller product picture.

The pill bottle I used (painted flat black) to cover the motor below the platform is 1-5/16" in length AND inner diameter.

OK, now for the radar screen.  In the Faller photo you'll see a small nut and, just below the wrench, a threaded metal shaft, the longer of the two shown.   That metal shaft has a small diameter end (to the left in the photo).  This provides a snug friction fit in the hollow rotating motor shaft (pinkish color in the photo).  I can't recall what the original production radar screen armature was.  But I removed it, drilled a snug clearance hole in its place for that threaded Faller shaft, and installed the shaft with TWO nuts, one above and one below the radar screen plate.  Since the Faller photo shows only one nut, I must have found a second in my scrap box.  Otherwise, your hobby shop or a well-stocked hardware should be able to help.

Anyhow, with the motor installed in the platform and the radar screen gently inserted into the motor armature with about 12v AC applied, it works quietly and smoothly.  As I said, I'll try to embellish this with some photos later.

Hope this helps.  If not, my email is in my profile...send me your questions...I'll try to help you through it.

Thanks for your interest!

KD

Hi KD,

Thanks a bunch for your response on this. I always like to get a feel for what I'm facing before the actual materials arrive, so I can visualize it. 

As for the metal rods....I had a feeling they fit into the pink armature shaft. The picture is blurry, but it looked like there was a hole in it. I could also see that I'd have to figure out a way to adjust the height of the motor. There is a can like thing attached to the bottom of the "top floor" of the tower. The vibrator goes inside that. I was thinking maybe I could cut that down to mount the motor on it from below, but I'll consider the "bottle cap" idea as well. The shaft coming out of the radar dish itself may not be removable on mine, so I may have to modify the motor end. We'll see when it arrives and I'll have a better idea what I'm dealing with. 

I'll definitely be back to you as I start this....although I couldn't find an email address in the profile. Today, after the tower arrived, I took it apart and then made styrene "signs" that will cover the front and back MTH logos. Painted them black and I have NASA stickers that will cover them. The tower is going to be part of my rocket launcher site.

What made me go for this Faller motor was I noticed that my wind turbines turn at a very "radar-like" speed. I measured it and they turn at 17 1/2 rpm (or close to that). So...the 15 speed will be great. And.....you don't have to change out the gears...that's the default setting. It also eliminated having to attach rectifiers and diodes to the motor if I had to go DC and deal with voltage concerns. 

Thanks again and we'll communicate at some point again this weekend.

Roger

KD,

I just realized as I sent the last response.....that "can" under the top floor is bottle cap shaped and might actually work (with a hole in it's center). When you mentioned bottle cap, I wrongly was thinking .....metal bottle cap and couldn't imagine attaching that. Reread the paragraph and realized it was plastic and then it made sense. But if I end up using that "can" the hole is going to have to be drilled EXACTLY in the center or it will create wobble. We'll see

Very cool!

Gandy

If someone here takes the time to do this kind of conversion, and documents the steps with high-res photos, it could easily earn him/her $200 with publication in the magazine.  Just the type of how-to I'm always looking for.

KD,

My Faller motor arrived earlier today and I opened it up to see how it would work. Problems. When you give it power, it doesn't move unless you twist the armature. Otherwise it just vibrates. Once it starts turning, it keeps on going, but something is wrong. Once it's connected to the radar dish, I shouldn't have to turn the dish to get it started. I'm thinking I might open the inner cap to see what's going on under the gears.

And I was hoping that the axle in the dish would friction fit into the pink armature. Nope....too fat. So, if I can get this motor going I'm going to have to jury rig something to hole the motor armature to the axle of the dish. A setback.

Roger,

Vibrating motor?  Is this an AC or DC motor... A DC motor hooked to AC might vibrate.  

Krazy glue was strong enough to hold the motor shaft to the radar screen.  my screwdriver configuration was a little easier because the shaft was long - too long so I had to cut it.  The radar screen is pretty light so the glue was strong enough to make the connection.

Ed

Ed,

No, it's AC and something appears wrong with it. There's a latch lever on the side which you turn to make the motor reverse, That works well, but only when the motor is already running. When I give it power, it doesn't turn until i either turn the armature or push the latch lever. I shouldn't have to do that. 

I thought the "can" underneath the top floor that held the vibrator was going to be perfect. It even has a centered hole already in it. Figured I'd mount the motor to the bottom of the can with the armature protruding up....add one of the add on plastic sleeves and attach it to the radar axle. No go.  I could probably use some kind of flexible plastic tubing, but I've got to solve this motor problem first. KD has the same motor, so I guess we'll have to wait and see if he's got a similar issue. I doubt it....I think it's a defect out of the box. 

Ed and others, do you folks have any pics of the geared motors your using aside from the above faller unit? I've only got one source for any geared motors so far and that's American Science and Surplus, a store front 20min away from me but they have an online addy too. Roughly $14 for a geared motor, mostly all DC take out types so far, that run the range from 45rpm to 60rpm off the motor shaft. Most range in the 12v input though some take higher at up to 23v as I recall. Some are bulky..size of a D cell battery, while some are small as an AA cell battery. 

 My needs are for the rotary beacon, but I need to aquire one first...and that one will be tricky due to the need to route wires thru to the light...I've got an image in my head of how to do it but lacking the piece{tower} in front of me makes it difficult to finalize it all.

I question that very highly! As a matter fo fact, the last time I mistakenly hooked up AC to an MTH drive truck, and forgot the bridge rectifier, all it did was spark and growl...not in a good way either.{didn't repete that one- ooops} You can input DC to a train because the electronic board has a built in bridge rectifier to straighten it out to DC...simple rule I've learned so far- an AC motor can take DC{but I don't think it's very happy about it}, but a DC motor can't take AC. 

Bob,

The motor I used was once part of this: (which may or may not work in your situation.  They were available at Lowes or HD, and were on sale for about $5 a while back)

... until I took the screwdriver apart and used the geared-down motor inside.  Earlier in the post, I have a video that illustrates the speed of rotation with 1 AA battery (1.5 volts) connected.

On my layout, I screwed a 1.5 volt D cell clip under the layout and connected to a pushbutton so the kids can make the radar tower work.  I figure the D cell will last about a year given the intermittent use.

I'd like to hear more about your rotating beacon design because my brand new run rotates just as badly as the radar tower did prior to modification.   The light bulb in the middle makes things a bit more complicated!

About the ac/dc motor thing... citing a few websites:

"Common DC motors will not work on AC. This is because they contain permanent field magnets and are reversible by reversing the polarity of the applied current. Since AC reverses 60 times per second, the motor will try to follow the reversals, but will end up not turning at all, or perhaps buzzing a little bit."

"Assuming the RMS AC voltage is about the same as the DC voltage required for the DC motor, it will likely sit there and just "hum", and quite likely overheat, because DC motors which are not turning create a higher current load on the supply than those that are."

That's what I was referring to.  The AC keeps reversing every 1/60th of a second so the motor tries to turn clockwise for a fraction of a second, the counterclockwise for a fraction of a second... so the motor just sits there buzzing.

The typical Lionel/MTH vibrator "Motor" really isn't a motor, just an electromagnet the keeps reversing poles every 1/60 of a second.  The vibrations pull a metal ring down, compressing the little fingers on the rubber washer. When the polarity reverses, the finger uncompress, the fingers rotate the beacon/radar screen slightly.  (General info for anyone who's was wondering)

Ed

It's very easy to turn your AC into DC for the radar tower if you desire.

 Thanks for the explanation Ed...wondered how the rotating beacons and the like worked since I don't have one on hand...neat.

 I also agree about the non use of a DC motor for a vibrator assembly as they're just not engineered for that even though the cycle is the same.

Now, for the radar swinging around fast video- that likens to alot of the old ones where the reading dish had little screan retention of objects, so the antenna had to swing fast to compensate...newer versions have far more retention so the bar or dish can swing slower...this all from what little I know of radar. 

My idea of how to revamp the search light would be via a 3 point trianglation- 2 points fixed on the tower top base with gears same size as the drive gear, and the drive gear/motor offset under the top base....the cup on the vibrator models would have to be given a gear rack inside to be driven.....or a simpler version would be just rubber drive and idler points for the cup to be rotated. This, in either version, would leave the centered bulb socket, for the light, to stand alone and unharmed....at least that's the picture in my head at the moment. Ebay hasn't been kind to me in aquiring a darn search light as every time I get outbid in the end. One of these days I"m going to nail one!

Yup, that's what bridge rectifiers are for, making AC to DC..they don't work backwards though...DC to AC!

Here's a few of the geared motors I have to play with-

Back in the olden days, when I taught Electricity Shop at the local HS,  I showed the kids how to change DC to AC.

I hooked a 1.5V battery to a buzzer with a stepdown transformer in series wired backwards, so as the buzzed "chopped up" the DC, it would create a chopped up voltage to the transformer which would induce high voltage in the secondary (at an extremely low current).

The we would all hold hands and the middle two guys would hold a flourescent tube by the contacts.  Voila, the light would light! and no one got "juiced"

It was a great way to show how a transformer would work only on AC, and we could talk about lots of electricity-related topics at the same time, the changes to voltage and current in a transformer, resistance, AC, DC, etc....

Bob,

Those motors look interesting and challenging.  The one in the screwdriver looks like this:

I decided on battery power just to save a few more wires under the layout. The D cell is easily replaceable, lasts forever, and eliminates bridge rectifiers, etc and the associated wires from a transformer.

Ed

Bob,

As far as the rotating beacon, I was thinking about a circuit with 4 LEDS sequenced so they would look like they were turning. .. or a bright LED flashing (with a ramp up and down like the MTH end-of-train trucks, that would look like some of the new strobe type lighthouses. 

no motors required

Your idea sound good, and with the right gears in the right place....

Ed

You would have been a fun teacher for me! We didn't have that where I was...had to take auto shop afterwards at the local community college just to learn about cars...ah, the joys of private schools{catholic}...and nuns with rulers was never a good idea{who the heck came up with that-honestly?!}

Anyway, your idea about the LEDs is good, but it would lack the rotation aspect of the beacon, something of which I would want for ours...others might be happy with that though if the beacon was aimed correctly for their viewing point. Something to consider at least...

My last idea of the rubber drive roller wouldn't require matching sized idlers, but would still require them to keep the can centered and on the drive piece....I like that set up plan the best. I came up with the bent/rounded cog track idea when I was planning out my, still unmade, turntable drive idea. Heating and bending a flat cog track for an ID drum would have it's share of issues with gear mesh having the teeth now angle inwards...an OD drive{outside of a drum} would be a tad loose but still do-able pending gear mess setting...lots moore room for that kind of thing for a turntable too...not so much in this application!

Now, here's a question that needs to be answered- what would be the prefered rotation speed for the antenna?

Pending a given geared drive and drum combo that's accessable, it would give ua something to shoot for in added tweeking or settling for what's available.  

I taught Electricity, Woods, Drafting, and once, Auto shop.  That was the time I backed up and leaned against the newly greased lift and put an oil slick down my back!

On my video I counted 16 rotations in 24 seconds, so the would be 40 RPM... I like the faster speed but you can guess that half as fast = 20rpm, etc.

The screwdriver was advertised at 100rpm. But, I used 1 battery instead of 2 so I would have figured about 50 rpm.... only off by 20%!

Ed

ps. how about a rubber roller on a motor that spins the edge of the beacon.  The motor would be offset and not interfere with the lighting?

Hold your horses, guys.   As mentioned earlier, the Faller unit I received seems to be defective. Very disconcerting that I have to send it back and wait for a replacement to arrive. However, I figured that I might as well work on the connection between the dish and the motor armature before I send it back. Well.......success!  What I ended up using for a "connector" was a rubber foot from some small applicance or perhaps it was a rubber cushion for a cabinet door. In any case....it's soft and flexible. I drilled out both ends...one for the metal armature extension part that came with the motor (one of two) and the other end to receive the larger diameter axle of the dish. I had to find washers to use as spacers where the motor will connect to the metal "can" under the top floor of the tower to move it down a bit (I used 3). Inside the can, I used another washer and the nut. Pressed the dish down onto the rubber "connector".....alligator clipped to a transformer and.....it spins at prototypical speed. Wonderful!  But of course, I have to send the motor back so I don't have to push the side of the dish to get it started. But, at least I know that when the replacement arrives, it should take me about 5 minutes to put it back in place.  You can find these Faller motors for about 25 bucks. Almost dead quiet, unlike the horror show that came with the tower. 

Roger

I also looked into some typical radar dish rpm rates. The E2C Hawkeye's radome apparently uses a 6 rpm spin rate. That figure came up alot. Dopplers, I'm finding, seem to go 3-6rpm. Apparently there is a dropoff in accuracy with high rpm rates. Maybe someone else has more knowledge about these rates, but from what I'm finding....slower is perhaps more prototypical.

Roger

Roger...

Probably not a 'defect', although if it were you'd think they would've solved it in the 10 years or so since I made my conversion.

I had/have the same 'hunting problem'.  I never communicated with Walthers and/or Faller (Germany).  It worked so well otherwise, was smooth, quiet, durable, etc..., I/we just dealt with it. 

First, a brief expansion on my Disney radar tower project...  I made the improvement to be able to put this accessory on the 'kids layout' run by a local club for several occasions throughout the year.  Hey, it's Disney, Donald Duck,...you know...kids (big & little) love it.  It needs to work....reliably (read: NO VIBRA-MOTOR!!!)

We used a KW transformer for the small 5x8 layout...one channel for trains, the other for the few accessories.  When we installed everything and powered up, that's when we'd find the radar screen 'dithering'.  Not always....maybe 30% of the time. 

What we found was that if we gave one simple, quick punch of the KW's reverse button (interrupting the current momentarily) for the accessories channel, the radar screen would find it's 'roto-mojo' and run perfectly thereafter.

Later on someone suggested that the problem could be bringing the accessories throttle up gradually from zero to around 14 volts on initial start-up.  He theorized that, perhaps, the initial lower AC voltages confused it somehow. (?????? Hey, we're just common 3-railers, for Pete's sake!!)  He suggested we set the throttle to its final voltage setting before plugging in the KW (It has no internal on/off switch like some of the later transformers).  Well, that did, indeed, seem to help quite a bit, but never entirely.  So, maybe there was something to his theory....dunno. 

Anyhow, as I said, forgiving it's only idiosyncrasy, we were more than pleased with the accessory's performance...on the layout and on the faces of the kidz.

So, that's what I can add to this saga.  A simple NC (normally closed) push button on one line to the accessory to 'goose' it would probably be all you need, if you don't already have such a feature in your power supply.  If it's a game-changer for you, then now would be the time to make another choice, indeed. 

We're no longer members of the club...long story (short version: HO won).  So I retained the Disney tower.  It still works fine, but it doesn't work into my own layout theme so well.  Nonetheless, it was a GREAT learning experience in overcoming the exasperations of infernal vibra-motors ().  I'd do it again, for sure.

BTW, my wife has promised to help me with some photos yet.  FWIW, I'll yet post them ASAP.

KD

KD,

Well, maybe I'll delay sending this back then. If yours had the same issue, another one will do the same. I do have emails out to Faller. I think I'll wait at least until I hear from them. But you're right....it's not really a game changer. The tower will be in the front of my layout and I could "nudge" it quite easily.  My gut is telling me there must be some kind of magnet inside. Reason I think that....when you slide the reverse lever, it hits the spinner gear and when that happens, something is being switched internally and it sort of feels like a magnet. I tried to pop off the cover to look in there, but it seemed like I ran the risk of breaking that spinner. 

In any case, when I figured out how to attach the two axles with my jury rigged "connector", it certainly does run nicely. That soft rubber foot was ideal because you have to press down on the dish base to squeeze the axles into it and be held by friction. My NASA signs look great on both sides of the tower now (covering the MTH logo). 

Not sure if I'm going to cover the motor, I may just paint it black. We'll see, but that part is easy. It was great that I didn't have to use the "bottle cap" as that case under the floor was perfect (at least with the three washers it is). 

Roger

Yeah, Allan, you know I've had this thought eleventy-seventy times through my 60+ years of this hobby.  When something tried turns out successfully, it's the fun thing to do...share the story. 

But here's been MY version of (drum roll, please!) THE PROBLEM!  It's always an afterthought!!!  And my project was a one-off effort.  When it's done and over and I'm basking in the glory, sipping the merlot, listening to Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries while watching my gizmo, scenic achievement, mechanical marvel, completed complex contraption...it's only THEN that I realize: Phooey!!  I shoulda taken step-by-step pictures and measurements, written coherent sentences around chicken-scratched notes and hieroglyphs deposited on scraps of paper, paint-smeared postcards, glue-goobered package material, et alia. 

And, of course, all of that would require the lucidity of a person half my age.

In short: No forethought.  And, unless I need a second (third, fourth, ....nth) additional of the same, doing it all over just for the sake of replication, documentation, publication, remuneration,....!....is not a bucket-list priority.

Maybe it's because most of what I do PRIOR to that one shred of success, is the obligatory series of 'failures', school of hard knocks, trials and errors, etc., etc., blah, blah.  Hey, guess what!?!?  I'm unique!  ()  Not everything I try works the first time!!

Well, I did succeed in sharing a story ONCE....back in 2001...for those "other" guys.  I could put a check mark on that bucket list item.

BTW, at least for moi, it's not about the $$$.  Sharing, alone, would be enough.  It's what I enjoy doing across the Trains counter at the LHS, too.  (We call ourselves 'THE department of counter-intelligence')

No, I hear you, pal.  Guilty as charged. 

And, sorry, Roger....I didn't intend to 'hijack' this posting with this posey-picking.

KD

No problem KD. My thoughts as well. I end up modifying almost everything I have on my layout. To me, that's the attraction of the hobby. I'd rather do that than go down and run trains. That feeling of success when it finally works is wonderful. But....then it's on to the next silly project. 

I've got a Lionel Industrial Smokestack on it's way that I may try to put a better smoke unit into. So, I've already started to switch gears with that one. Onward

Roger

KD,

I just unpacked the motor from the box I was going to use to send it back, brought it downstairs and connected it to my KW accessory transformer. Goosed it with the direction button and sure enough......it started to spin. I appreciate the tip. If that works consistently, or even close, it won't be worth sending back for a replacement.

Thanks!

Roger