Horns at Protected Grade Crossings

I guess you first need to be more clear about the level of "protection" at a particular grade crossing. For example, in the western suburbs of the Chicago area, both the BNSF (former CB&Q) and the UP (former C&NW) commuter main lines, have all the grade crossings equipped with BOTH flashing lights AND double gates. As a result, these areas are all pretty much "quiet zones" and thus have NO HORN blowing, and have been so for well over 50 or more years.

A few years ago, the FRA held hearings in these areas about MANDATING that all the "quiet zones" be abolished, and "horn blowing" should begin immediately. Naturally, that didn't go over very well at all, due to the potential loss of real-estate values, so they are all still quiet zone areas. 

In my own opinion, in these highly populated areas, with tens of thousands of daily commuters, plus people always in a hurry, I don't think that the addition of horn blowing would help stop the idiots from trying to drive around the downed gates & flashing red lights, anyway. Then there are always those with the head phones or "ear buds" that don't seem to be aware of their surroundings, and continue to get killed by the trains too.

I may not be helping your case, but that is reality in many of the suburban commuter train areas throughout the U.S..

Well, yes, there is a reason to sound whistles\horns at grade crossings- it is required by the FRA regulations and GCOR which many railroads have adopted. The exception is the ability to create a quiet zone. In the absence of quiet zone, horns must be sounded when approaching and through a grade crossing.

FRA on whistles\horns    Quiet Zone Locations  Final Rule

Define the question clearly that is to be answered to determine who is correct. Based  upon what you have provided you are both correct. In a debate over Regulatory and rule requirements, you are correct.

Houstn MetroRAIL has about a mile of a QZ along the Red Line near the Art and Science Museums.  However horns can be used in cases of somebody on the tracks, et. al.

Sorry, I should have been more clear.  I am talking about crossings with either single gates or just lights.  In other words, crossings that you could drive around the gates and/or ignore the flashing lights.  So are horns necessary over these type of crossings?

I already gave this person this links to the FRA final rule and the quiet zone.  But he claims the FRA is only a government body that passes un-needed rules. 

Any other info is appreciated.  Interesting debate!

Well, IMO, blowing the horn is necessary as the listen part of the "Stop, Look and Listen" rule for folks regarding railroad crossings.......

In my area of south florida, we have a freight railroad(the FEC) and a commuter/freight railroad(CSX/ TriRail). Several communities that the FEC passes thru have tried to get the horn blowing stopped, but most of them back off when they find out that the FEC will not pay for the required double gates and warning lights to be installed--- each set of gates & lights costs upwards of $300,000!  On the CSX/TriRail section from west Palm Beach to Miami, most of the crossings are double gates and lights(because the Feds paid for the improvements)-- so those crossings do not sound horns at all.

In Elburn, IL. where Rt. 47 crosses the U.P. mainline it's a quite zone with a protected crossing with gates that can't be gone thru and they have that big electronic horn blaring away with flashing yellow lights. I guess that little farming community wants things quite??!!

Here by me it's the CP former Milw. Rd tracks that run thru town. They still use the train horns but most of the engineers tone it down at night. 

Any crew that does not properly blow for the crossing is subject to a personal fine by the FRA and termination by their employer. Even in a Quiet Zone, if their are people, cars, etc next to the crossing who appear to be in danger of getting hit, the crew is required to sound the horn and bell.

Why sound off at protected crossing???? LIABILITY and sue happy people in this country! Besides the fact that it's a federal law, RR rule, the crew can be found personably liable for not blowing, and not blowing properly!   

There is no argument or debate with a closed-minded individual such as this one. Just ask them to hand you their driver's license. More unneeded rules.  Move on and ignore this person and hope they live within a 1/4 of a mile from a multiple grade crossing area in a non-quiet zone.

Congress requested that the FRA review train horn blowing, and the many local regulations governing it.  Congress expected the FRA to to mandate more quite zones. The FRA studied Florida, which had a lot of quite zones.  They found that the number of deaths in grade crossing accidents was higher where quite zones were used.  They proposed rules that eliminated quite zones.  Congress would not hear it and demanded that the FRA come up with uniform rules that included quite zones. The final rules came with quite zones, but the quite zone must be sponsored by a government agency. When a quite zone is established, liability for grade crossing accidents transfers from the railroad to the sponsoring government agency. This was all well documented in the Congressional Record postings prior to the adoption of the current horn blowing regulations. 

When I was in Sugar Land last year, the UP tracks near the sugar mill were in a posted quiet zone. But something unusual was added to the grade crossing -- electronic horns. The flashers were equipped with speakers that sounded a grade crossing horn sequence. It wasn't as loud or penetrating as diesel air horns, but did give a warning as the train approached the crossing.

The horns that have to be blown at a crossing do not have to be mounted on the locomotive. The FRA at one time was promoting the used of fixed horns. Locomotive mounted horns direct their noise down the track while fixed horns can direct here noise down the roadway where it is needed.

Wow, I just read some of the Final Rule that Moonman provided the link to. The part that requires an engineer to blow the horn not less than 15 seconds form a crossing but not more than 20 seconds blows my mind. It seems as if you blow more than 20 seconds before the crossing you can be disciplined or fined but less then 15 seconds and the liability lawyers can have a heyday with you if someone gets hit. If weather conditions make it hard to see the surroundings before the crossing they will give you a good faith allowance of 5 more seconds. What a piece of crap legislation that is. Retirement never looked so good.  

"the locomotive horn shall begin to be sounded at least 15 seconds, but no more than 20 seconds, before the locomotive enters the crossing. It shall not constitute a violation of this section if, acting in good faith, a locomotive engineer begins sounding the locomotive horn not more than 25 seconds before the locomotive enters the crossing, if the locomotive engineer is unable to precisely estimate the time of arrival of the train at the crossing for whatever reason."

Hello (it's been a while...)

I don't know if it would do anything, but the bells I've heard on modern locomotives seem only barely audible.  If no horn, is there any way to increase the volume of the bell, and would it help?  I'm just thinking some other warning system on the train should be increased to compensate.

Aaron

Agree, I side with the FRA, but it still is an interesting debate.  The actual crossings are in a small town, with gates and lights, but NOT full width gates that go across both lanes of traffic.  Speed limit is 40 mph + for the railroad, a busy NS mainline.  So why would horns be needed?