How to Best Mix Postwar and Command Control

A Legacy PowerMaster is what you are looking for as it can be used to remotely control the voltage to a block of track via the CAB-2 remote of the #990 set. The ZW-L does have this PowerMaster capability built in to each of its throttles.

Would the assignment on the #990 be for the track the Berk is running on since the locomotive cannot be programmed?

The ZWL has the powermaster built in.  I have one and you can control the track voltage via the CAB2.  Each output can be assigned a # just like an engine.

Here is an older post about it.

https://ogrforum.com/...zw-l-vs-power-master

@Tony H is correct in the fact that the ZW-L has the PowerMaster builtin. The assignment is the ID of the throttle as discussed in the user manual around page 16: https://www.lionelsupport.com/...WLManual.pdf#page=16

Lionel has a video that covers all things ZW-L:

I read the entire manual the other day for the ZW-L, but it almost sounds as if I will either have to run CONV or CMD. In other words, it almost seems to me that I would not be able to run postwar and command control at the same time, even if the postwar is on its own track line. Am I interpreting this correctly?

The mode discussed on page 16 is probably what you want - using the remote to vary the track voltage for conventional locomotives. However, you can set the track voltage to full throttle and use the CAB-2 to issue commands to command control trains.

I assume that I would just be selecting the CAB2 number that I assigned to the track for the postwar, just like I would when changing locomotive numbers with my legacy locomotives?

@DILLI posted:

Is there a way to control the Berk with the Command Control without buying more transformer equipment or using the transformer handles? I am told there is, but I am unclear on this.

Would you consider upgrading the Berk to have Command Control electronics? It's possible with ERR AC Commander.

@DILLI posted:

I assume that I would just be selecting the CAB2 number that I assigned to the track for the postwar, just like I would when changing locomotive numbers with my legacy locomotives?

Bingo!

@raising4daughters posted:

Would you consider upgrading the Berk to have Command Control electronics? It's possible with ERR AC Commander.

There is a not-insignificant amount of additional work and costs involved with that option and classics like this are only original once. Once could be able to score a command control Berkshire for equal or less investment when you add up the ERR AC Commander, R2LC Radio Board, tether, labor and all...

@DILLI posted:

I assume that I would just be selecting the CAB2 number that I assigned to the track for the postwar, just like I would when changing locomotive numbers with my legacy locomotives?

Yes, that is how it is done.  Works nice. 

A section of track (e.g., a loop) can either be in command (constant ~18V) or conventional (variable voltage). You cannot operate a command engine and a conventional engine on the same loop (unless you want your PW steamer to haul arse). Wire your layout with multiple separate loops so you can mix and match. If it’s an all command day, set everything to 18v and off you go. Or, dedicate a loop for your PW runner and control it through the remote or handle.

@bmoran4 posted:

Bingo!

There is a not-insignificant amount of additional work and costs involved with that option and classics like this are only original once. Once could be able to score a command control Berkshire for equal or less investment when you add up the ERR AC Commander, R2LC Radio Board, tether, labor and all...

Yes, I realize all of that. The OP asked "Is there a way to control the Berk with the Command Control". Technically, there isn't, but there are devices that let him control the track voltage with a handheld device, but not the locomotive itself.

I agree with your point about retaining all original. I've got 6 PW engines from my grandfather that I treat as family heirlooms. No way I'm upgrading those to ERR, but if the OP's Berk doesn't have sentimental value, it's an option. And, you're right that it's not cheap. To have someone else do it would likely be $250-$300 with labor.

If I create a separate track line only for the Berk, will it be possible to run it at the same time that I am running Legacy locomotives on the other track line?

I will not be running the Berk on the same track line as a Legacy locomotive, but can I have the Berk running around its own track line while I have the Legacy locomotives running around on their track line?

With distinct blocks powered by a different throttle output, Absolutely!

Say Throttle A is command. Simply set it to full throttle and issue commands to your command locomotives.

Then, with Throttle B, say that is connected to the block for your conventional locomotive, you can vary its throttle setting to control the locomotive.

Both of these can be don concurrently.

Good. With the ZW-L I was hoping to be able to control both lines at the same time using the Command Control #990. That way I can have multiple Legacy locomotives running on one track line while the Berk is running on another track line of its own.

@raising4daughters posted:

Would you consider upgrading the Berk to have Command Control electronics? It's possible with ERR AC Commander.

I would be lying if I said that I never considered doing this, but what advantages would it provide for me in my situation?

@DILLI posted:

I would be lying if I said that I never considered doing this, but what advantages would it provide for me in my situation?

Adding the ERR AC Commander would allow you to operate your postwar locomotive with basic TMCC functions using the CAB 1 feature on your Legacy remote.  In short, you wouldn't need to have a separate track for it.  It would run off the same constant voltage as your Legacy locomotives.

@DILLI posted:

I would be lying if I said that I never considered doing this, but what advantages would it provide for me in my situation?

In short, you could run it on the same track at the same time with your legacy locomotives.

An important point was made above. It's not cheap. And, if I understand it correctly, since your Berk a likely has an older AC motor, you wouldn't get the low speed operation or speed control that Legacy and competing DCS locomotives come with. But, you could get crew talk and chit chat, railsounds, electrocouplers, and directional lighting.

@DILLI posted:

Good. With the ZW-L I was hoping to be able to control both lines at the same time using the Command Control #990. That way I can have multiple Legacy locomotives running on one track line while the Berk is running on another track line of its own.

You can definitely do this with a ZW-L or Legacy PowerMaster. In both cases you will be addressing a TR number that will control the track voltage. We do this at our club. The CMD/CONV switches can be confusing and mean different things between the two products. Looks like your leaning to the ZW-L so I’ll start there

You’ll want the ZW-L in the CMD position as this is what tells it to respond to Cab-2 commands to change voltage on the track or blow the whistle. Also don’t forget that you still have to keep the handle turned on as that will actually limit how high the voltage can be raised with the Cab-2. Lastly you’ll have to dial up the voltage even for your command locomotives as there’s no shortcut to get full power out of the ZW-L.  In the CONV position it will only change voltage with the handles like a normal transformer.

At our club we use Legacy PowerMasters theses are set in the CONV position as this always gives you the ability to dial the voltage or if it’s command hit Aux1,9 and that will put full power to the track. The CMD position will always put full voltage to the track when addressed and won’t allow you to change voltage.

I do like my ZW-L and it should do the job. And it just looks cool.

hoped this helped and made sense

So... if I am understanding all of this correctly...

I would prefer to just use my ZW-L and not buy a PowerMaster... am I going to be able to run the Berk on a separate line concurrently with the Legacy locomotives running on the other track line? I thought I understood this after reading what bmoran4 wrote, but now I am a little unclear.

Or put another way - to run the Berk with just the ZW-L and not a PowerMaster - I will need to have the ZW-L in CONV mode. But if I have the ZW-L in CONV mode, how will I run the Legacy locomotives in CMD mode?

You can keep the ZWL in Command mode and just vary the voltage to the one track via the remote to control the Berk.  The other outputs will be command as well.  That is how I do it if I want to vary the track voltage with the remote.

In addition to cost and other factors, other issues in deciding whether to install an ERR Commander to upgrade your Berk to command control, would be whether, a) you would like to have a second loop for your layout because it fits into your overall design and, b) whether it's possible that you might want to acquire additional post war locomotives in the future.

If you were never going to build a second loop but for having the Berk and don't realistically think you'll be acquiring more conventional engines, then I would opt for the ERR installation; skip the second loop; and build the layout however you want.   

OTOH, if having a second loop is something that you planned on and would enhance the look of the layout and you might get more conventional trains which would require investing in more ERR upgrades, then I would probably skip the ERR installation and build a second loop to run your conventional trains.

You should also understand that, if you built a second loop to run your conventional trains, it does not have to be completely separate from the other loop. You can connect the two loops together via track crossovers, so that a conventional train on the "inner" loop can cross over to the "outer loop" and vice versa (not at the same time). You need to electrically separate the loops via a small slot in the center rail (or if using Fastrack installing a 1/3/8" fitter piece) of the crossover track, so that you can run conventional and command at the same time on separate loops. By connecting the loops, you could run a conventional engine(s) alone on both loops or a command engine alone on both loops making sure the correct voltages are used.       

@Tony H posted:

You can keep the ZWL in Command mode and just vary the voltage to the one track via the remote to control the Berk.  The other outputs will be command as well.  That is how I do it if I want to vary the track voltage with the remote.

@TonyH - But if the ZW-L is in CONV, how am I going to control the Legacy locomotives? Will the Command Control #990 work with the Legacy locomotives when the ZW-L is in CONV?

Keep the ZWL in command mode.  It has a powermaster built in, so you don't need anything else.  If you want to control the Berk with the remote keep the ZWL in command.   That individual track voltage will vary via the remote.  The other outputs will stay at the 18V.

If you wanted to control the Berk via the handles, which you said you did not want to do, then you would keep the ZWL in conventional.  I will do that sometimes, when I want to control a convention engine via the handles.  I put the other outputs at 18V and use a remote to control the Legacy/LC2+ with the cab2 remote.

@Richie C    You make a lot of points here. I have no intention of buying any more conventional locomotives. I love the new systems and everything they offer. I just would like to incorporate my Berk in the mix because I do like watching it run. It runs magnificently and looks handsome pulling the Madison-style cars. Good point with regards to the ability of joining the inner and outer track lines and then electrically separating the loops so that either locomotive on either track line could switch over at some point (not at the same time).

The easiest situation would be to have one huge and intricate track line that I can place all of my locomotives on and not worry about which track line they are on. That is the beauty of the modern equipment.

@Tony H posted:

Keep the ZWL in command mode.  It has a powermaster built in, so you don't need anything else.  If you want to control the Berk with the remote keep the ZWL in command.   That individual track voltage will vary via the remote.  The other outputs will stay at the 18V.

If you wanted to control the Berk via the handles, which you said you did not want to do, then you would keep the ZWL in conventional.  I will do that sometimes, when I want to control a convention engine via the handles.  I put the other outputs at 18V and use a remote to control the Legacy/LC2+ with the cab2 remote.

OK - now I understand. I would just keep it in CMD then.

This is one of the reasons why I had originally wanted to buy the ZW-L. Glad I bought it. Thank you!

@DILLI posted:

OK - now I understand. I would just keep it in CMD then.

This is one of the reasons why I had originally wanted to buy the ZW-L. Glad I bought it. Thank you!

This was the point I attempted to make sorry it got lost in the details.

must’ve missed where you already had a ZW-L (good transformer). That’s the tricky thing the CMD/CONV switch mean different things on different products 😅

@zhubl posted:

This was the point I attempted to make sorry it got lost in the details.

must’ve missed where you already had a ZW-L (good transformer). That’s the tricky thing the CMD/CONV switch mean different things on different products 😅

@zhubl No worries! It wasn't you. I really appreciate the time you took to answer my question. It is me.  I am just trying to figure this all out. BTW... your layout looks incredible. I watched the video attached to your post.

@raising4daughters posted:

In short, you could run it on the same track at the same time with your legacy locomotives.

An important point was made above. It's not cheap. And, if I understand it correctly, since your Berk a likely has an older AC motor, you wouldn't get the low speed operation or speed control that Legacy and competing DCS locomotives come with. But, you could get crew talk and chit chat, railsounds, electrocouplers, and directional lighting.

@raising4daughters Out of curiosity - do you know if the pullmor motor in a locomotive like my Berk can be switched out for a can motor? It seems like the ERR upgrade provides everything one could want without the cruise control capabilities.

Anything can be done with enough time, money, and resources, but there isn't a off the shelf drop in can motor. As stated earlier, if you wanted a can motor, command control etc... you'd be ahead economically on the secondary or primary market.

Take a look at this (just as an example):

Yeah - they are amazing. I have some Legacy locomotives and I love them. I would probably stay with Legacy, but I get your point. You start changing a million things with these old locomotives and it is like going down a financial rabbit hole. There is no end in sight, and you still do not have the same level of equipment you would have if you had spent a little more and bought a Legacy or similar modern locomotive.

@DILLI posted:

Yeah - they are amazing. I have some Legacy locomotives and I love them. I would probably stay with Legacy, but I get your point. You start changing a million things with these old locomotives and it is like going down a financial rabbit hole. There is no end in sight, and you still do not have the same level of equipment you would have if you had spent a little more and bought a Legacy or similar modern locomotive.

Some may disagree, but I'm with @bmoran4 on this one and I think you're there, too. TMCC on a pullmor is OK, but that's late 90s performance for $250-$300. If you've got Legacy engines, it will still pale in comparison to them although it will enable you to run it simultaneous with Legacy engines.

I've kept all the postwar engines I inherited in their original conventional condition. No regrets. Yes, it pretty much limits me to one engine per mainline when I call conventional time, but so what. Save your Berk for Throwback Thursdays.

@raising4daughters posted:

Some may disagree, but I'm with @bmoran4 on this one and I think you're there, too. TMCC on a pullmor is OK, but that's late 90s performance for $250-$300. If you've got Legacy engines, it will still pale in comparison to them although it will enable you to run it simultaneous with Legacy engines.

I've kept all the postwar engines I inherited in their original conventional condition. No regrets. Yes, it pretty much limits me to one engine per mainline when I call conventional time, but so what. Save your Berk for Throwback Thursdays.

@raising4daughters I agree 100%. I love everything about the Legacy locomotives and will only buy Legacy. But you know what? I also love the Berk. In the 1950s it was considered a premium Lionel locomotive, it's a great runner, and I love the way it looks pulling the Madison-style cars. It does not have cruise, but it can be run slowly with the passenger cars and smokes like nobody's business. (I had the original smoke unit replaced with one geared for smoke fluid.) It provides me with a different perspective and experience, and it keeps me in touch with past times which is important to me as well.

@DILLI posted:

@raising4daughters I agree 100%. I love everything about the Legacy locomotives and will only buy Legacy. But you know what? I also love the Berk. In the 1950s it was considered a premium Lionel locomotive, it's a great runner, and I love the way it looks pulling the Madison-style cars. It does not have cruise, but it can be run slowly with the passenger cars and smokes like nobody's business. (I had the original smoke unit replaced with one geared for smoke fluid.) It provides me with a different perspective and experience, and it keeps me in touch with past times which is important to me as well.

I totally understand. The 726 Berk gets front page billing in Greenberg's Guide to Lionel Trains 1945-1969. After I inherited my grandfather's stuff in 2002 (which included a 2056 Hudson that used the same boiler as the 726), my Dad and I went to a LHS and I bought a Nickel Plate Berk Jr.