How to fix RailKing Triplex stuck in Neutral

What type of transformer are you using?

MTH product number please?

RickO, I'm using a Lionel CW-80, due to it having a bell button and thus allowing me to fire the coupler, etc. I've also tried it on my ZW with a similar lack of success.

gunrunnerjohn, the product number is 30-1647-1E

I'd try a different transformer.  The CW is not recommended by MTH.  At least try a lighted car on the track with the engine.

Ok, I'll try it again on my ZW when I get home. Is there an equivalent to a bell button on a ZW?

OK so I missed you trying it on a ZW.  No you can add a bell button but a modern transformer is a better option.

Like GRJ asked, a product number maybe useful in this situation.

The product number is 30-1647-1E. It was part of a set in 2014.

Also, I love your sig!

OK, this is the PS/3 version.  Like others have said, the CW-80 is specifically mentioned by MTH as being incompatible with much of it's equipment.  One only has to look at the waveform of the output of the CW-80 to see why that's probably true.

Those ugly spikes doubtless drive the PS/3 logic crazy!

There is always the option of rolling your own whistle/bell box.  I cobbled this one together out of junk box parts a long time ago, occasionally I drag it out for testing some conventional item.

@BurkusCircus52 posted:

...

Engine locked in neutral? The manual says I can turn on/off direction lock by playing a whistle and 3 bells a 1/2 second apart each, but nothing changes. Still either no movement or turns off when pressing direction. I know I have my timing down because I can fire the back coupler (bell and 3 whistles) consistently.

Since you can apparently get the engine to respond to the CW's W and B buttons, have you tried W-B-B-B-B-B (Whistle and 5 Bells)?  That's a factory reset which should also clear the direction lock.  You should hear the double toot-toot acknowledgement sound from the engine if it successfully received the W B sequence.

When you finally press the Direction button, had the engine been on the track for a sufficient time to let the onboard supercap to charge up?  When you say the engine turns off when pressing Direction this might be because the supercap does not have sufficient energy stored to ride-through the momentary loss of power (when pressing Direction).

While I don't think you're still stuck in DCS command mode from the previous owner, a simple thing to try is to adjust the volume control "knob" on the engine.  If this control affects the volume, then you are in conventional mode.  Along this line, if the engine truly thinks it is in command mode, it would remain silent/dark when power is applied since it is waiting for a DCS "Start Up" command; and if in command mode, it would not have responded to the BWWW rear coupler command.

stan2004 - No, I haven't tried the factory reset yet. I'll try that if the ZW doesn't work. As for the supercap issue, I think I am? It takes a few seconds to turn on the lights/sound when power is first applied, and most of the time nothing happens. I think it only shuts down because I press down for too long, long enough that it interprets the direction button as the track power turning off. And yes, the lights and sounds do come up naturally.

I'm on my way back home now, so I should see if the ZW fixes anything in the next hour. Thanks all for your help!

@BurkusCircus52 posted:

stan2004 - No, I haven't tried the factory reset yet. I'll try that if the ZW doesn't work. As for the supercap issue, I think I am? It takes a few seconds to turn on the lights/sound when power is first applied, and most of the time nothing happens. I think it only shuts down because I press down for too long, long enough that it interprets the direction button as the track power turning off. And yes, the lights and sounds do come up naturally....

To be clear, when you say shuts down do you mean it simply goes silent/dark...or do you mean it plays the 5 second (or whatever it is) shut down sound with the compressor whining down?

If the supercap is sufficiently charged the engine reverses direction for short (say, 1 sec or less) Direction button presses but then starts the shut down sound for long Direction button presses (say, 3 sec or more).  Of course removing track power is equivalent to a really long Direction button press!

I suspect there's something going on with the supercap and/or related circuitry in that it is not charging up and/or holding a charge sufficient to ride through the track power interruptions during a Direction button press.

I... think so? I thought it was a blow down effect. But yes, it does play a shutdown sequence before going dark.

Switching to ZW now

Definitely follow Stan's advice. Any used locomotive should be factory reset prior to using it. You have no idea what the previous owner set in the locomotive.

Next, was your track voltage below 10v when you try to unlock it? It will not unlock if voltage is higher than 10v

Okay, I tried the ZW, didn’t work. Now I’m back on the CW80 trying to get it to restart, and THAT doesn’t seem to be working. No whistle acknowledgment. I occasionally get the blowdown/compressor sound effect but I think that that’s just random timing coinciding with it. Is there a way to factory reset on the engine? A button or switch hidding somewhere?

EDIT - It seems like it’s not acknowledging the whistle in the CW80, as it just rings the bell when I do the sequence. I think it thinks I’m just spamming the bell.
On the ZW, it’s just not acknowledging the direction... toggle? Just sitting in neutral.

@BurkusCircus52 posted:

Is there a way to factory reset on the engine? A button or switch huddling somewhere?

Stan explained how to do the reset. You do need the whistle and bell buttons to respond. It's on page 10 of the manual in the table
https://mthtrains.com/sites/de...ction/30st19368i.pdf

Before I got the DCS Explorer, I had to take my PS2 2-8-8-2 in to a local HS and have them do a reset through their DCS system. Had problems getting it to factory reset with the whistle bell combo.

@BurkusCircus52 posted:

I... think so? I thought it was a blow down effect. But yes, it does play a shutdown sequence before going dark.

Understood.  This is "good" news.  If you're getting the several-second shutdown sequence upon removal of track power (or by holding down Direction for many seconds), then the supercap circuit is probably OK after all.

This then gets back to how to get out of Locked-in-Neutral jail.

Clearly, in the long term if you plan to operate in conventional you need something other than the CW to reliably operate the features activated by the W and B buttons.  I am not aware of any "secret" button or mechanism in or on the engine itself to implement a Factory Reset.

So if we adopt a small-victories view of the situation, perhaps just getting the engine unlocked from Neutral would be a good day's work!  That said, with what you have in hand, I think there's a chance you can get the CW to reset the engine though it will seem like an exercise in insanity (repeatedly trying the same thing expecting different results).  That you could occasionally fire the rear coupler is the tease.  So if you have nothing better to do on a rainy afternoon... I'd fiddle with a variety of CW voltages to try to unlock the engine.  This includes full throttle.  That is, it's technically arcane but the way the W and B track voltages are generated and how the MTH electronics interprets them can vary with the underlying track voltage.  So there is a possibility there are certain sweet-spots in throttle settings for which the W and B button patterns behave better.  Again, this is a Hail Mary and I wouldn't spend too much time on it.

Note:  if you have some incandescent passenger cars that you can place on the track these additional electrical loads can alter the W and B voltages on the track just enough to perhaps sneak through a W B button sequence.  Or you can just call this adding to the insanity.

I'll throw this in, even though I think that it's ultimately irrelevant. And I'm not a DCS kind of guy.

I hav a PS2 RK Mohawk (for some reason). I also have a DCS Remote Commander. The Mohawk used to run fine in conventional or DCS; it stopped running in Conventional - "stayed in neutral" - but continued to work with the Remote Commander. I noted that the battery was no longer charging - which explains things. I did not replace the battery as I seldom run it and then only with the Remote Commander - and that does not require the battery, so far as I understand.

@D500 posted:

I'll throw this in, even though I think that it's ultimately irrelevant. And I'm not a DCS kind of guy.

I hav a PS2 RK Mohawk (for some reason). I also have a DCS Remote Commander. The Mohawk used to run fine in conventional or DCS; it stopped running in Conventional - "stayed in neutral" - but continued to work with the Remote Commander. I noted that the battery was no longer charging - which explains things. I did not replace the battery as I seldom run it and then only with the Remote Commander - and that does not require the battery, so far as I understand.

Right.  That describes a quirky situation that I'm not sure is clearly described in the instructions.  Specifically, you need a charged-functional battery to save changes to the engine settings.  So let's say you're Locked-in-Neutral.  Let's say you can use the W-B buttons to unlock/reset this.  You even get the double-toot audible acknowledgement.  But, as soon as you press the Direction button the change you just made is lost because the PS electronics doesn't have the battery power to store that change to it's non-volatile (aka Flash) memory.  So when power is restored (i.e., when Direction button is released) the long-term memory still thinks you are Locked-in-Neutral.  Lather-Rinse-Repeat.

UPDATE: So I've called all of the hobby shops in my area I can think of, and none of them have DCS hooked up to their test track. As of now, I'll probably just keep it stuck in neutral until our club has another show. Which, depending on Corona, may be a while. So any other solutions would be appreciated.

My other option would be to hook up DCS, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be worth it for a single loop on a 9x6 table for a single engine. Unless I could get a used system for like $40 or whatever.

For a single system, you can use the DCS Remote Commander, street price in the $40-50 range.  I see that TrainWorld expects them the end of December and the price will be $49.95.

Oh, I didn't know this existed! I'll look into it!

@D500 posted:

I'll throw this in, even though I think that it's ultimately irrelevant. And I'm not a DCS kind of guy.

I hav a PS2 RK Mohawk (for some reason). I also have a DCS Remote Commander. The Mohawk used to run fine in conventional or DCS; it stopped running in Conventional - "stayed in neutral" - but continued to work with the Remote Commander. I noted that the battery was no longer charging - which explains things. I did not replace the battery as I seldom run it and then only with the Remote Commander - and that does not require the battery, so far as I understand.

Maybe it might not be important  🤐 , but it might be interesting to get a battery replacement from GRJ just to see what results you get with the  Mohawk . 🤔

Okay, so I looked at TrainWorld's product description, and this line worries me:

Locomotives will ONLY operate with the DCS Remote Commander if they are set to the factory default settings. If the Factory default settings must be reset, the reset procedure must be done with a DCS Digital Command System (Item No. 50-1001). Using a conventional transformer with bell and whistle buttons to reset to Factory default settings will NOT properly reset the Proto-Sound 2.0 or 3.0 electronics to the correct address needed by the DCS Remote Commander to operate the locomotive.

If that's the case, and our theory about needing a factory reset is correct, this seems like this wouldn't help? Unless the engine IS still in it's default, and being locked in neutral doesn't count as counter to default? It seems like a bit of a high risk for a $50 add-on...

If you have absolutely no way to find anyone with a DCS system, you're options are quite limited.  Where do you live, is there really no train people close to you, or a local hobby shop?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

For a single system, you can use the DCS Remote Commander, street price in the $40-50 range.  I see that TrainWorld expects them the end of December and the price will be $49.95.

@BurkusCircus52 posted:

Oh, I didn't know this existed! I'll look into it!

BC ,  we run the MTH Nativity Train on our Christmas upper leve part of the layout with the Remote Commander.  It works flawlessly.    I use my Z1000 from my test track for power but I think I could have got away with a Z500 or Z750 .

North of Columbus, Ohio. The three main Hobby Shops in the area, Robbie's Hobbies, Moody Street Trains, and the Train Station, all don't have DCS hooked up to their test tracks (MTH stopped doing business with them in mid-2019, which honestly should've been a sign they were closing soon). The other guys in my train club are either pretty old and concerned about Corona (our county just went to Level 4, and Ohio's been approaching 10,000 cases/day), or live 2-3 hours away.

Dallas, did you buy the set new? If not, do you know if the previous owner messed with the settings at all?

Also check the plug going between engine and tender ... no sure about the rail king version but I’ve several premier engines have the plug slide out just enough it won’t see the tach reader signal .. people tend not to handle them properly and the side to side movements can dislodge the plug ..

UPDATE 2: I recalled Robbie's Hobbies again, and apparently he DOES have DCS hooked up to the test track (he assumed I was talking about HO last time I called him), so I'm bringing the engine in this afternoon to get reset! Hopefully this fixes things!

And yes, vinndiesel, the plug is all the way in.

@BurkusCircus52 posted:

UPDATE: So I've called all of the hobby shops in my area I can think of, and none of them have DCS hooked up to their test track. As of now, I'll probably just keep it stuck in neutral until our club has another show. Which, depending on Corona, may be a while. So any other solutions would be appreciated.

My other option would be to hook up DCS, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be worth it for a single loop on a 9x6 table for a single engine. Unless I could get a used system for like $40 or whatever.

I thought the objective was to get your Triplex out the stuck-in-Neutral for conventional operation.  If that's still true then all you need is a hobby shop that has a test track with a transformer that has W and B and is on the "approved list".  The list is usually printed near the end of your engine manual.  As mentioned earlier, I don't think the CW80 is on that list.

Plus, if you are going to operate your Triplex in conventional, you'll need a different transformer anyway.  So perhaps the strategy is to go to your hobby shop and say you're shopping for a transformer (with W and B) that will operate it...and would like to evaluate it on your Triplex on their test track.  Then see if the candidate transformer can reset the Triplex using the W-B button sequence.

Stan2004 - I just need the DCS to do the factory reset. If that works, I think it'll be fine!

But even if successful resetting the engine at the hobby shop, when you get home aren't you still without a conventional transformer (with W and B) that can reliably operate the various features of your Triplex?

I'm just trying to get it to move, man. As long as I got that and a whistle I'll be fine

@BurkusCircus52 posted:

Dallas, did you buy the set new? If not, do you know if the previous owner messed with the settings at all?

Bought the Nativity Train new at Stockyard Express  in  Oberlin Ohio.

My triplex would not run in conventional mode with any transformer. I'm pretty sure it's because the battery is low for the PS2 system. I'm still waiting on my capacitor to replace the battery so I can't say for sure this is the issue. I just know it runs like a champ with command control.

BillYo, thanks for the heads up! I'm keeping the DCS RC in the back of my mind as a backup, but I want to see if it will work normally on conventional first.

@stan2004 posted:

As mentioned earlier, I don't think the CW80 is on that list.

Plus, if you are going to operate your Triplex in conventional, you'll need a different transformer anyway.  So perhaps the strategy is to go to your hobby shop and say you're shopping for a transformer (with W and B) that will operate it...and would like to evaluate it on your Triplex on their test track.  Then see if the candidate transformer can reset the Triplex using the W-B button sequence.

Although the statement about the CW 80 is correct. There is an option if you have an older transformer. I use the Lionel 6-5906 with an RW. Works just fine on my 2 locos that only have sound. I used it before I got the DCS explorer and was able to run my 2-8-8-2 (after a local HS reset it), and Mohawk with the whistle button on the transformer and the bell button wired in.

The other option is to build the W/B box gunrunnerJohn posted. Actually looks nicer than the Lionel one too.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

There is always the option of rolling your own whistle/bell box.  I cobbled this one together out of junk box parts a long time ago, occasionally I drag it out for testing some conventional item.

Snickering when I see the picture of the insides of this box. Why? Because even though its just a string of diodes soldered together, the workmanship is WAY better than the internals on the 6-5906 bell button. Which is just a string of diodes soldered in series using a cheap board, but looks like it was put together with "the bigger the glob, the better the job", soldering mentality.

The soldering job in this picture would probably pass the Mil Spec 2000 / NASA high reliability soldering inspection that I was trained in.

My 2 cents, when faced with similar issues I dug out a MTH Z 750 transformer, hooked that to my test track and solved the problem immediately.  My LW was retired from test track duty that day.  It was far easier to complete the bell whistle button taps with that controller, I have no idea about wave form.