FAILED -- How to remove and replace Lionel F-3 screen (modern)

@Pingman posted:

Need advice on how to remove the screen from a modern Lionel F-3 to paint the shell and then reinstall the screen.

Here's a photo:

The screen appears to be secured by a washer and pressed on "speed nut."

Anyone done this screen removal/reinstall successfully and can share the "how to"?

Thanks.

They are pressed on one way washers. Get a very small flat blade and get one side lifted, remember not to press on the unprotected roof. Once one side is lifted work it off.

0 for 6; complete failure. The photo below is representative of the two other shells where I was unsuccessful in removing the pressed on washer from the stud -- the stud always broke.

Used a tiny flat blade screwdriver that was very difficult to slide under even a small edge of the one way washer and when I did the stud eventually broke. I even tried the nail of my index finger which could slide under the one way washer and it too broke off the stud.

Fortunately, there was enough stud left that I'm confident the screens can be secured when reinstalled after painting the shells.

If anyone has been successful (i.e., didn't break the stud) when removing the one way washer, please chime in; there are more projects in the pipeline.

Carl, what’s the purpose of removing the screen. Just curious.

@romiller49 posted:

Carl, what’s the purpose of removing the screen. Just curious.

He said painting.  Masking is never perfect, it's best to remove windows and the like if possible.

@Pingman posted:

Need advice on how to remove the screen from a modern Lionel F-3 to paint the shell and then reinstall the screen.

Here's a photo:

The screen appears to be secured by a washer and pressed on "speed nut."

Anyone done this screen removal/reinstall successfully and can share the "how to"?

Thanks.

It’s not a fail, but a fact of life. As long as the shell was not damaged your good. Anything could be glued in place to hold the screens

Unfortunately. Most things being built today are designed for quick easy assembly. Not to be taken apart for any reason. Most autos are all pretty much snapped together.

An L shaped mini pick might work. I’d try to get the point under each tab with the bend resting on the washer portion. Then pry each one away a bit till it releases. That way your always prying against metal. Going just under the washer really isn’t releasing the tabs that are locked on the plastic. Just use picks that come with a decent sized screwdriver type handle. I had some Snap On’s at work but no need to spend that kind of money. I have a Milwaukee set for home.

@Dave_C posted:

Unfortunately. Most things being built today are designed for quick easy assembly. Not to be taken apart for any reason. Most autos are all pretty much snapped together.

Dave,

I can't agree.  I work in automotive, and have for 40 years, directly with the folks that design assemblies that use these things.

They are:

1. Designed to be installed quickly (to keep assembly line costs low) with identical results achieved each time (consistency providing predictable quality)
2. As light-weight as possible, while being suitably durable (for fuel economy and durability simultaneously)
3. Removable (for service; this is a requirement, although if one of them has to be sacrificed then destroying the speed nut is permitted, but not the stud.)

If a speed nut grabs too tightly then breakage during removal is expected.  The stud must have the correct diameter, and its material selected for strength while holding (securing force), and strength while removing (releasing force).

One or more of these requirements were not met with the studs in this F3 shell.

Now, having said all of this, if the studs are designed correctly are they still a pain-in-the-butt to remove without specialized tools?  Definitely.  No argument here.

Mike

Could be worse. Many original postwar Lionel parts were installed at the factory by just melting over studs with a soldering iron!

Jim

ThatGuy alluded to it, and I wouldn't worry about preserving the studs or the washers. I'd just break off the studs. There's plenty of surface available to glue the screen to the shell.

@romiller49 posted:

Carl, what’s the purpose of removing the screen. Just curious.

As GRJ said, the shells will be painted and my masking skills are inadequate for screens, portholes, windshields, etc.

Thanks for the replies, guys. The screens will be reinstalled but secured differently -- no problem.

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Dave,

I can't agree.  I work in automotive, and have for 40 years, directly with the folks that design assemblies that use these things.

They are:

1. Designed to be installed quickly (to keep assembly line costs low) with identical results achieved each time (consistency providing predictable quality)
2. As light-weight as possible, while being suitably durable (for fuel economy and durability simultaneously)
3. Removable (for service; this is a requirement, although if one of them has to be sacrificed then destroying the speed nut is permitted, but not the stud.)

Anyone who has worked on a car in the last 20 years would argue the only thing that any of the non-safety critical systems are designed for is lowest manufacturing cost and maximum profit.

to remove those one-way washers...

I have had good luck prying up the side(s) with a screwdriver just enough to grip the sides of the washer with a pair of needle-nose pliers and then 'gently' twist the washer back & forth while gently pulling the washer back or off the post. it kinda 'unscrews' and almost always leaves the post intact, albeit slightly scarred from the metal washer twisting, but you can almost always re-apply the washer and it will still grip the post.

EDIT:

here are a couple of pics of my 2344 NYC F3's while I was cleaning/tuning-up after 30+ years in storage. 1 pin/post broke off, the rest survived.