How will Lionel pulling the plug on ERR affect your buying habits or older engines you already own?

Hot Water posted:

MartyE posted:

Again Atlas and 3rd Rail are not affected by this.  This is only sales to the consumer.  The manufacturers that use TMCC will continue to be able to get the components. 

Well maybe it's just me but,,,,,,,,,,,somehow I just don't believe your statement!

It doesn't really matter if you believe his comment, it was stated by the folks at Lionel at York, so we actually do believe it.

Once again, there's no certainty that the situation will stay that way.  My guess is those folks have a contract for the parts (and it's only a guess), and will receive them for at least the term of the contract.  After that, I suspect all bets are off.

JC642 posted:

These are not cheap throw away toys.  The operative words here is having a commitment to "backward compatibility" and serviceability plays a big part in it  Over the years folks in this hobby have mentioned this countless times and how it really matters to have a committed train guy who thinks like we think is making the decisions that affect us, its customer base over the long haul.  Funny thing is, there is a company with that proven record in this hobby.

joe   

 

Norton posted:

It won't affect me anytime soon. I have a number of Cruise Commanders, Cruise Lites, and Cruise Ms on hand. Also have a number of TAS EOBs and EOB Drop ins if things get really tight. With Lionel now selling Legacy boards, that is another fall back. I am doing one of those now. What is lost is the ease and convenience that ERR brought to table. Also upgrading non Cruise modular and repairing Odyssey will be much more complicated with the loss of the Cruise M.

The above plus I use both TMCC/Legacy and DCS and don't hesitate to install PS2/3 if it appears to be better solution

Ditto, to the point. Best post yet!

Wow, this is what happens when I don't pop back on for a few days. This does impact me as I was going to have Alex work on bettering up my two Mohawks from the 90's. Granted I haven't gotten through with getting them sent over to Alex to look at and offer his sound advice for options. I guess I'll have to wait and see what is cooking then, eh?

I love what Alex did for my Niagara, I can only imagine that Lionel has some other stuff behind the curtain just in case we all have other stuff we want/need to upgrade as well as the inevitable fixing what we break or wears out.

We can only sit back and see which track they switch us to to keep us from derailing, unless that's what they want(I doubt they want that).

Some years ago, at two York meets, a senior MTH rep told me they were working on a means to enable DCS to work on locos without flywheels.  Apparently never did come to fruition.

I stopped buying Lionel when I got tired of the same old steamers with slightly different shells, and the original sale that brought miserable quality.  In 1990 I discovered Weaver and then MTH.  HAven't bought any Lionel in 35 years.

I've upgraded two postwar Lionels to DCS, a 736 Berkshire and a 624 C&O switcher, using Timko conversion motors.  The latter is fine.  The ability of DCS to run slowly showed up a binding in the 736, for which neither I nor The Guru was able to find the cause.

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I can only imagine that Lionel has some other stuff behind the curtain just in case we all have other stuff we want/need to upgrade as well as the inevitable fixing what we break or wears out.

I think you assume facts not in evidence.  I didn't see or hear anything that suggested that Lionel will offer some "super" upgrade to replace the ERR stuff. 

Won’t affect me, I made the switch to Battery-Powered, Remote-Control 3 years ago.  If Deltang and BlueRail fall by the wayside I can always install an off-the-shelf rc system.

Looking forward to buying older items I've been looking for in 3 rail at rock bottom prices.  Won't affect my PRR as it's mostly all two rail these days outside of the G's.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I can only imagine that Lionel has some other stuff behind the curtain just in case we all have other stuff we want/need to upgrade as well as the inevitable fixing what we break or wears out.

I think you assume facts not in evidence.  I didn't see or hear anything that suggested that Lionel will offer some "super" upgrade to replace the ERR stuff. 

I agree.  If this was the case they would have made an announcement and avoided all of this.

MartyE posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I can only imagine that Lionel has some other stuff behind the curtain just in case we all have other stuff we want/need to upgrade as well as the inevitable fixing what we break or wears out.

I think you assume facts not in evidence.  I didn't see or hear anything that suggested that Lionel will offer some "super" upgrade to replace the ERR stuff. 

I agree.  If this was the case they would have made an announcement and avoided all of this.

Then why would Jon elude to "As one door closes, Two more open up".  It may appear to be another manufacturer picking up the business, but it could be something bigger. I would not put my blinders on yet guys.

I think both Lionel and MTH are responsible for this mess. They’ve saturated the market to the point that we can buy one of their obsolete engines at 25 cents or less on the dollar. Old TMCC steamers with pulmores can easily be converted with can motors and upgraded to run as good as current products. Proto one engines that have set for years with battery failures can also be easily upgraded to run with today’s technology. To me Lionel’s decision is based solely on forcing old time buyers to purchase new engines. This affects many many people. This is a part of the hobby that I will miss. I’m glad all of my older Hudson’s, Mohawks, T1’s etc have been converted.

Dave, they're the same boards.  The ONLY difference is a connector is plugged into the holes instead of the Euro-style terminal block.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Dave, they're the same boards.  The ONLY difference is a connector is plugged into the holes instead of the Euro-style terminal block.

OK, correction noted.  Deleted my erroneous post.

I did mishear that part at the meeting then.  (or Lionel considers the minor connector you note as a different part).

Can someone clarify just what this means please?  If Lionel "pulls the plug" does it mean there will be no more product or just that Lionel will no longer support that sub set of its company?  I don't want to start a flame war here but converting to DCS is a non starter for me.  TMCC is a simple one wire hook up and was adopted by Weaver, Atlas, K line along with permitting WBB upgrades.  Since I am interested in operating trains and not being a techonoweenie, it was my choice instead of DCS.  There is no way I am going to convert anything I own to DCS at this point.  

I think what Romiller said is Spot on,forcing us to buy new as opposed to upgrading what we already have or buying on the secondary market for significantly less.

Mikey

Chris, I have many upgrade kits  and never saw this coming.   I put in another order when I first read this post.  

Won't affect me in the least.  My older locos with PS1, mechanical and electronic E-units were converted long ago.  I'm perfectly happy with Legacy, older TMCC and LionChief+. 

The only thing that is certainly happening right now is ERR is closing its doors. That closing is about lack of revenue and availability of components, and importantly and immutably,  the retirement of a key person who is age 80+ (this is from Jon Z.'s post).

There is absolutely no announcement that parts for TMCC/Legacy won't be available from Lionel or other third parties, as has happened in the past (Train America; Digital Dynamics in the distant past).  Indeed, Lionel quietly announced the availability of Legacy boards without exchange a little while ago.  Some enterprising folks will start doing Legacy upgrades for the first time in all likelihood. I can think of at least one person (Mike Reagan) who could do this tomorrow if he chose to.

So I'm not worried about finding someone to upgrade my few Williams F units to command in the future.  It's a leadpipe cinch someone will be able to do that, whether it be with TMCC/Legacy/PS3 or perhaps LionChief+ down the road.  I prefer Legacy or LionChief+ in any new loco purchases and this passing of ERR changes that preference not at all.

Landsteiner posted:

 

So I'm not worried about finding someone to upgrade my few Williams F units to command in the future.  It's a leadpipe cinch someone will be able to do that, whether it be with TMCC/Legacy/PS3 or perhaps LionChief+ down the road.

Neil, I takes me about 15 minutes to install a Cruise M in an engine with Odyssey or older modular TMCC. Maybe 2 hours tops to install an ERR Cruise Commander and Railsounds. Legacy will take 20 hours to do that. Maybe 18 for Mike R. Its not plug and play and currently Lionel is selling few Legacy railsounds boards.

Sure, it may be possible but the cost with labor will exceed the cost of a new Legacy engine.

The only way the cost could come down is if Lionel offers a kit with all the compatible boards, wiring harnesses, smoke units, lights, steam tethers, etc.

Odds of that happening are slim and none at this point.

Pete

J Daddy posted:

MartyE posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I can only imagine that Lionel has some other stuff behind the curtain just in case we all have other stuff we want/need to upgrade as well as the inevitable fixing what we break or wears out.

I think you assume facts not in evidence.  I didn't see or hear anything that suggested that Lionel will offer some "super" upgrade to replace the ERR stuff. 

I agree.  If this was the case they would have made an announcement and avoided all of this.

Then why would Jon elude to "As one door closes, Two more open up".  It may appear to be another manufacturer picking up the business, but it could be something bigger. I would not put my blinders on yet guys.

Well, this is another Lionel disaster. They maybe have thought about the consequences but not weighed what we think. Is it possible that they have some other alternative or none whatsoever, of course. Only time will tell what their game plan is, that is if there is enough outrage for them to consider any other options or reconsidering. Extremely frustrating to say the least.

Personally, it may drastically effect my buying habits, I will switch to HO.   And that is not good for my club, as I do all of our ERR conversions.  One of my club partners recently sold out his collection to fellow club members (including me) and is buying HO now.    I may follow his lead...

As a consumer I have two locos that have regular sounds and one that is a TMCC conversion. Lately my concern is when the stuff inside gives up the ghost if we can get replacement parts. If not they’ll be dead ducks. 

To answer your question, I cancelled 2 Lionel engines today, the H10 and SW7. Sorry to say, no more Lionels  engines no matter what new innovative features they may or will have. My dealer asked if I would explain why I was cancelling, he understood and my feelings.

Already past the motive power acquisition stage, this development will lay to rest fantasies of upgrading older stuff.

What, me worry?

I have a handful of engines I want to upgrade.  I guess I better buy the boards even though I don't really have the funds to do so.  This will really kill my enjoyment of the hobby, if not kill this gauge all together for me.  Might just go join my brother in N scale.

"Odds of that happening are slim and none at this point."

Perhaps.  Or perhaps if we wait a few weeks or a month, Lionel will announce a plan for upgrades and parts availability that makes all this gnashing of teeth and rending of garments seem thoroughly premature and unnecessary? 

I do wonder why almost all of us leap to that judgement Lionel wants to do things that are disappointing to customers and damaging to themselves?  Do we think these folks are that stupid?  For one thing, Lionel may have had little or no time to prepare for this series of events. If so,  whatever might constitute plans B and C have yet to be formulated.

Landsteiner posted:

"Odds of that happening are slim and none at this point."

Perhaps.  Or perhaps if we wait a few weeks or a month, Lionel will announce a plan for upgrades and parts availability that makes all this gnashing of teeth and rending of garments seem thoroughly premature and unnecessary? 

I do wonder why almost all of us leap to that judgement Lionel wants to do things that are disappointing to customers and damaging to themselves?  Do we think these folks are that stupid?  For one thing, Lionel may have had little or no time to prepare for this series of events. If so,  whatever might constitute plans B and C have yet to be formulated.

Very simply put, when we were informed of this at the Legacy meeting, there was no one from Lionel saying "but don't worry it won't matter because we have something wonderful planned."  Quite the opposite.  No one gave any indication there was a plan to replace ERR boards and were fairly concerned with the reaction of the attendees and the forum.  If they have a plan, no one is letting on.

To me it's similar to the whole K-line tragedy..   Eliminate competition -         ( whatever, or whoever that may be) and hopefully get people to buy your more expensive products.  

Again...as I have said in the other threads....we don't need multitudes of the same or similar topics on this...please post on the original topic that was started by Derek Thomas...."The Death of the TMCC Upgrade".