Interactive LCS Sensor Track based game idea

For the game to work, seems it would require a fairly large layout. Luckily I check that box. Also requires a lot of LCS components. For my rebuild I have a TON of them.

I'm interested for sure. Not positive how I could help from a development perspective, but this does seem the kind of thing LCS should be able to do, and it has thus far been hugely underutilized.

Finally, someone who shares my enthusiasm for this kind of stuff!!

https://ogrforum.com/...3#149661645474538363

https://ogrforum.com/...4#175990811219608004

https://ogrforum.com/...9#177539554930355129

I agree that:

(1) LCS seems to be under-developed and under-marketed.  It would benefit from a solid demo implementation, which I have not seen in person or on the Web.

(2) For me (and perhaps subset of other operators), having some type of model "economy" that gives the trains a sense of purpose makes a layout more fun and engaging; it might help to stave off boredom and obsolescence.

(3) If the model economy serves as the basis for a multi-operator "game," that further increases engagement.  It would add a whole new dimension to public displays that could win new converts to the hobby.  An interactive, public layout like this could be an alternative to "escape rooms" for corporate team-building, etc.  Perhaps it could even serve as a type of role-based play therapy for people with Aspergers, and those on the autism spectrum.

Andrew, I agree that for best results with a minimum of two trains,  the layout would have to be at least medium-sized.  But it's not the sheer size, it's the complexity.  If you use traditional-sized trains (RailKing, LionChief Plus, Postwar) of about 4-6 cars, RDCs for passengers, and very sharp curves I'm convinced that it can be made to work in a typical space.  The key is, the layout has to be purposefully designed to support this kind of "game."  Trains with speed control, or good slow-speed performance and a muted top speed help a lot.  Because unless the operators are highly skilled, keeping trains separated at even 30 scale MPH on a small layout gets pretty frenetic!

Ryan my contact info is in my Forum profile.  I encourage you to contact me if you would like to collaborate further outside of this thread.

@Andrew B. posted:

For the game to work, seems it would require a fairly large layout. Luckily I check that box. Also requires a lot of LCS components. For my rebuild I have a TON of them.

I'm interested for sure. Not positive how I could help from a development perspective, but this does seem the kind of thing LCS should be able to do, and it has thus far been hugely underutilized.

Great to hear about your interest already. As soon as I am ready to test hardware plugged into a layout I could certainly send you a module and for testing new versions of the code I could email you the updates which can be downloaded to the module with a USB cable. I also have access to a client of mine's layout which is 1500sqft has 6 interconnected track loops, and also has provisions for LCS.

I can test smaller layout implementations at home. For the next step, it would be great if you had a sketch of the layout you're working with, along with approximate LCS sensor locations. This is very early right now, but I will start whipping up a basic implementation of this game concept at home shortly.

I also need to come up with a name for this, maybe Train Ops Sim or TOS         LCS TOS

Here's a photo of the board game set I created back in 2021 as a proof-of-concept.  The object and game play are very similar to what you described in your first post, including passengers that get impatient and leave the station if they are not picked up soon enough!

I won't claim that my game or the concept is especially prototypical.  I've operated on many layouts that used a car card system, etc., to simulate prototypical operation.  That's much better than loop running, but it can be pretty dry for non-train buffs, and operating sessions often seem to repeat from one month to the next.  During the pandemic I played a lot of Terraforming Mars and other Euro-style games featuring multiple ways to accumulate "victory points."  The best games never seemed to play the same way twice.  So I was trying to come up with an operating scheme that promoted a lot of variety and interaction between operators.

Also...  Some of what you're describing in your first post--using LCS to create a kind of automaton--has a different application: what I think of as a "mechanical fish bowl."  A medical specialist in Dallas whose office I visited has a giant fish tank in the waiting area.  Patients love to watch the fish.  You can't even see all the way through the tank, you have to walk around to see different views from each side. I've designed a layout that works like this.  It's designed to showcase different trains passing through four or more scenes from varying directions, to promote extended viewing.  Using LCS to dispatch the trains--with provisions for randomness  (which the system presently lacks IIRC)--would create a kind of "mechanical fish tank."  The train layout  might even cost less per month to maintain than his 1000-gallon fish tank!  It could find a home in doctors' offices, children's hospitals, etc.  IMO, it would also be a better example of what's possible in our hobby than so much of the round-and-round running that you see on holiday displays; I believe it would have more "sticky-ness" for extended viewing.  My $.02.

@Ted S posted:

Finally, someone who shares my enthusiasm for this kind of stuff!!

https://ogrforum.com/...3#149661645474538363

https://ogrforum.com/...4#175990811219608004

https://ogrforum.com/...9#177539554930355129

I agree that:

(1) LCS seems to be under-developed and under-marketed.  It would benefit from a solid demo implementation, which I have not seen in person or on the Web.

(2) For me (and perhaps subset of other operators), having some type of model "economy" that gives the trains a sense of purpose makes a layout more fun and engaging; it might help to stave off boredom and obsolescence.

(3) If the model economy serves as the basis for a multi-operator "game," that further increases engagement.  It would add a whole new dimension to public displays that could win new converts to the hobby.  It could be an alternative to "escape rooms" for corporate team-building, etc.  Perhaps it could even serve as a type of role-based play therapy for people with Aspergers, and those on the autism spectrum.

Andrew I agree that for best results with a minimum of two trains,  the layout has to be at least medium-sized.  But it's not the sheer size, it's the complexity.  If you use traditional-sized trains (RailKing, LionChief, Postwar) of only 4-6 cars, RDCs for passenger and very sharp curves I'm convinced that it can be made to work in a typical space.  The key is, the layout has to be purposefully designed to support this kind of "game."  Trains with speed control, or good slow-speed performance and a muted top speed help a lot.  Because unless the operators are highly skilled, keeping trains separated at 12" per second on a small layout gets pretty frenetic!

Ryan my contact info is in my Forum profile.  I encourage you to contact me if you would like to collaborate further outside of this thread.

Wow! I can see you have been rooting for something like this for a while now. I wasn't even thinking about the multi operator potential of this until you just mentioned it. I've also been thinking of just how under utilized LCS is/lacking of a true demo there is and would love to see more added to it. In fact, I'm actually working on a way to feed sensor track data onto a wall mounted status board. And I am starting off by using real vintage MTA Metro North Hardware, The situation board out of Grand Central Terminal at NJ High-Railers as we speak. I thought it was a shame that Lionel had to drop production of the sensor car (which added Sensor Track Transmitters to any train) due to low sales volume. It drove me to create my own sensor track transmitter from scratch, so I can fit it to any box car I like. And yes I would be happy to collaborate on this project, Funny how without seeing your post I also thought we needed something very similar to make a train layout feel like a video game.

As an avid gamer myself, I thought about what elements draw me to a game vs what feelings keep me from spending as much time running trains. And you hit the nail on the head with one of your linked posts. There is only so much running in a loop you can do. A game keeps me interested because it is continually feeding me little wins of progression. Once the layout is built, progress slows way down. Part of the fun growing up as a kid with K'NEX, Legos and Lincoln Logs was tearing things back down and getting to progress from nothing again. I would also love to give a purpose to running so many more trains in my collection. More than just cool or unique looks.

The way I could do that with a physical train game based around LCS would be to make a new game start with restrictions that you can unlock by progressing. Forcing you to use smaller engines with less ability at the start, unlocking the rest by completing runs. That would be the mode I use. For more of an open house/public friendly concept, you could run in an open-ended sandbox mode (what games call the mode without any barriers in place) trying for a high score by transporting the most passengers or freight. Whatever I make, I want to ensure that the game runs automatically within LCS to keep the barrier to entry as low as possible.

The most fun I've had operations wise with a layout was when a fellow club member brought a pair of 10 sided dice and assigned numbers to each station or siding, you would roll the dice and drop off/pick up a car or drive your train to that location. When you finished, you would re-roll the dice for your next move. It created natural traffic jams where I needed to wait at a siding for him to pass depending on the routes we had to take. It felt realistic, and you got the little feeling of success when you got to the goal despite some potential obstacles.

I figured it would be a lot of fun to create a reason for me to want to go run trains at my friend/client's beautiful layout, and to have that reason replace at least some time I might otherwise spend playing games. My idea for the economy simulation and other concepts in my game idea comes from a game I enjoyed growing up, "Chris Sawyer's Locomotion" (which was all about evolving equipment though the years along with profit and growth, and much more recently a game called "Rail Route" which is a self-described Train Dispatcher Simulator.

@Ted S posted:

Here's a photo of the board game set I created back in 2021 as a proof-of-concept.  The object and game play are very similar to what you described in your first post, including passengers that get impatient and leave the station if they are not picked up soon enough!

I won't claim that my game or the concept is especially prototypical.  I've operated on many layouts that used a car card system, etc., to simulate prototypical operation.  That's much better than loop running, but it can be pretty dry for non-train buffs, and operating sessions often seem to repeat from one month to the next.  During the pandemic I played a lot of Terraforming Mars and other Euro-style games featuring multiple ways to accumulate "victory points."  The best games never seemed to play the same way twice.  So I was trying to come up with an operating scheme that promoted a lot of variety and interaction between operators.

Also...  Some of what you're describing in your first post--using LCS to create a kind of automaton--has a different application: what I think of as a "mechanical fish bowl."  A medical specialist in Dallas whose office I visited has a giant fish tank in the waiting area.  Patients love to watch the fish.  You can't even see all the way through the tank, you have to walk around to see different views from each side. I've designed a layout that works like this.  It's designed to showcase different trains passing through four or more scenes from varying directions, to promote extended viewing.  Using LCS to dispatch the trains--with provisions for randomness  (which the system presently lacks IIRC)--would create a kind of "mechanical fish tank."  The train layout  might even cost less per month to maintain than his 1000-gallon fish tank!  It could find a home in doctors' offices, children's hospitals, etc.  IMO, it would also be a better example of what's possible in our hobby than so much of the round-and-round running that you see on holiday displays; I believe it would have more "sticky-ness" for extended viewing.  My $.02.

First of all, your prototype board game train game is actually really cool. Very nice work. That's definitely a big element of the game mechanism I had in mind. We definitely need to go into detail on what made your game tick. We can certainly take that to a side chat.

I didn't even know that the concept of many paths to victory was called a Euro-game, knew I liked them, didn't know the name.

Also, you're in luck on the mechanical fishbowl idea. That client I mentioned wants me to leverage LCS to do just that and give his 1500 sq ft dedicated train room a way to run hands off with lots of switching and trains moving in every direction so he can focus on showing the layout to his guests rather than focus on not crashing trains while his guests are watching. He wants at least 6 trains running at once while showing the room off. So I will be doing work on that code no matter what, and you're free to join in on the fun of testing all that and or grab a copy of that code/ hardware.

The first road block I reached when doing this development work was realizing that the sensor track location data doesn't actually get transmitted out of the SER2 modules, this means for this game and that fishbowl project to happen I first need to develop a new LCS Device from absolute scratch. Since that track data is only visible within the PDI cable itself. I got to that point of development in the thick of covid times and was just kept on getting terrible serial converter chips from overseas. Probably in relation to the chip shortage.

So that's where my development currently sits. As soon as I am decoding Sensor Track data from my own module, programming, the bare basics of a game will be easy. The second challenge will be programming the director of that game that runs internally to generate events and track overall progress. Adding more than one player might have to wait until I work out the first player. One of the early concepts I want to test are enforcing rules like top speed by sending reduced speed commands to counter cab2 inputs that go past the game's set limit according to the progression system.

Andrew I have "Locomotion" on my wish list in Steam.  I didn't buy it because I don't need anymore distractions from cleaning out my spare room so I can actually build a layout that does some of this cool stuff!  I agree that screwing your track down removes the creative appeal of building toys like Lincoln Logs and K'nex.  One way to do our game would be with Fastrack on folding tables in a hotel ballroom at York or the TCA convention.  If we add provisions for random terrain (mountains, tunnels, rivers, etc.), that would have the potential to produce a variety of track plans!  I think one of my posts mentions modular scenery.  If and when I do build a permanent layout, I'm going to try very hard to find a way to implement this.  It's inconvenient to rebuild the whole layout, but being able to change whole scenes might help to keep it fresh longer.

I also thought about buying parts from LionelSupport and building my own sensor car.  Honestly if Lionel is 100% behind LCS, they need to re-introduce the cars, or at least do a big production run of sensors so that they won't run out of stock like so many other modern-era parts do.  Not sure if you read my post, but a sensor-equipped caboose would make a TON of sense for automated operation.  At least if you're not doing modern era (in which case you would need a sensor kit complete with ETD!)

In video game terms, I imagine LCS taking the role of the AI or a non-player character.  For example, it could run a scheduled passenger train while the human operator(s) try to deliver freight with a minimum of interference.  Do you want to be like BNSF, and minimize disruption?  Or like UP, and maximize freight delivery no matter how long those passengers have to wait!? 

I'm not sure if either of you have ever messed with Auran Trainz (a computer-based train simulator program.)  The graphics have become extremely realistic over the years.  But when it debuted circa 2001 it was more like a MODEL train simulator.  It was much easier to build "routes" (layouts) in the program compared to Microsoft Train Simulator and other simulators.  If you want to test a track plan for automated functionality, you could prototype it in Auran Trainz, the program has track "triggers" and AI drivers, etc. The logic  gets tricky with loops because there didn't used to be a way to designate an origin point, so priorty conflicts would develop due to circular interdependencies.  However, there are workarounds.  If you try and get stuck send me an email or a PM.  Good discussion!!

I just finished a "game" session on my "Time Waster" switching layout.  5 switches and 9 sensor tracks in a 75" module.  The end goal of building this layout is using LCS to provide automated shunting of cars from the starting positions to end positions with the classic Time Saver layout's restrictions on siding lengths.  A dice roll is a good way to order the cars on the main line with another roll to determine destinations.  There are practical problems to automation.

LCS signals the passing of locomotive or the (rare) sensor car.  The presence of, and number, of cars coupled to the front and rear of the loco is unknown so the controlling software has to maintain the state of trains on the layout.  Lionel needs to provide additional sensor car and train detection options.  How about a kit to retrofit cabeese or other cars in our rosters to add input to sensor tracks?   I'm sure Ryan can comment on how simple this can be if the LCRU receiver and logic in the sensor car is replaced with a simpler configuration mechanism.

The 1 to 98 address space of TMCC1 and TMCC protocols can quickly fill up with engine sensor IDs, but TMCC 0xFE and TMCC2 0XF8, 0xF9, and 0xFB commands can be extended to support a multitude of sensors (what was planned for the 0xFA address space?).

How about a "Train on Track" detection using insulated rails that feeds into a STM2 clone that transmits a "train entered" or "train exited" for a number of attached detection tracks and can be queried by software to learn the state of the detection track.  (An insulated rail detection track that feeds a DC polarity signal (occupied | empty) to the STM2 is very feasible - I leave that board design to the H/W gurus).

With a shunting layout, command latency is an issue - the sidings are not long enough to allow slack in stopping the switching engine before cars are pushed off the end.  In particular, Lionel's LCS App's suppressing control input for 3 seconds while it displays sensor track information is a big design miss.  Wrecks await.  I'm hoping that a Base3-related update to the App will fix this.  The latency issue is a problem with all automation software as our track plans are compressed representation of a prototype and leave little slack for managing train speeds.  Better detection of train position is essential.

Don't get me started on recalcitrant coupler opening and closing.   Grrrr.

Automation with existing LCS products is going to be a challenge.  Lionel has opportunities here.

I love the recognition on this thread that our model railroad layouts can be large game boards.  That’s how I think of mine - even though I have no intention of automating - it’s still an interactive game with complex pieces and local rules.  Fun!

@Ted S posted:

Andrew I have "Locomotion" on my wish list in Steam.  I didn't buy it because I don't need anymore distractions from cleaning out my spare room so I can actually build a layout that does some of this cool stuff!  I agree that screwing your track down removes the creative appeal of building toys like Lincoln Logs and K'nex.  One way to do our game would be with Fastrack on folding tables in a hotel ballroom at York or the TCA convention.  If we add provisions for random terrain (mountains, tunnels, rivers, etc.), that would have the potential to produce a variety of track plans!  I think one of my posts mentions modular scenery.  If and when I do build a permanent layout, I'm going to try very hard to find a way to implement this.  It's inconvenient to rebuild the whole layout, but being able to change whole scenes might help to keep it fresh longer.

I also thought about buying parts from LionelSupport and building my own sensor car.  Honestly if Lionel is 100% behind LCS, they need to re-introduce the cars, or at least do a big production run of sensors so that they won't run out of stock like so many other modern-era parts do.  Not sure if you read my post, but a sensor-equipped caboose would make a TON of sense for automated operation.  At least if you're not doing modern era (in which case you would need a sensor kit complete with ETD!)

In video game terms, I imagine LCS taking the role of the AI or a non-player character.  For example, it could run a scheduled passenger train while the human operator(s) try to deliver freight with a minimum of interference.  Do you want to be like BNSF, and minimize disruption?  Or like UP, and maximize freight delivery no matter how long those passengers have to wait!? 

I'm not sure if either of you have ever messed with Auran Trainz (a computer-based train simulator program.)  The graphics have become extremely realistic over the years.  But when it debuted circa 2001 it was more like a MODEL train simulator.  It was much easier to build "routes" (layouts) in the program compared to Microsoft Train Simulator and other simulators.  If you want to test a track plan for automated functionality, you could prototype it in Auran Trainz, the program has track "triggers" and AI drivers, etc. The logic  gets tricky with loops because there didn't used to be a way to designate an origin point, so priorty conflicts would develop due to circular interdependencies.  However, there are workarounds.  If you try and get stuck send me an email or a PM.  Good discussion!!

And don't get me wrong, I am certainly not saying trains need to be rebuilt to have fun but just saying that mentally speaking, there is an appeal to starting fresh. Clicking new game on a video game has a lot of appeal, especially when you don't know the exact outcome. I just want to bring some of that feeling to the train room. Permanent layouts are works of art. LCS lets us add functionality to that art. Let's make that functionality add to the fun.

I didn't even notice they still had those core parts of the sensor car still available to buy. I made my own by reverse engineering the IR signal and transmitting a copy of that data from my own postage stamp sized microcontroller board. The biggest component was the ac to dc converter that I bought online, but I could certainly shrink that way down to fit on the same footprint as the other board. The next issue for me in releasing a sensor car retrofit kit would be adding power pickup rollers to these freight cars. Rechargeable batteries can work, but would be too labor-intensive. Cabooses already have that pickup roller, so no problem there. But when I added my sensor car retrofit to a traditional O sized box car, I had to swap out the truck for one with a pickup roller on it. I suppose those should be in no short supply from Lionel parts, though.

We certainly can do that LCS AI/NPC thing too, it would probably be fun to have a disruption score at the end from 1 to 10 or in other words UP to BNSF.

Never heard of that Auran Trains simulator, now that I looked it up though wow, it goes deep. Also, just how much of a market do these people have! That they can get away with gatekeeping TRAIN SIM features behind an annual subscription pay wall!! It's nice that they have a pay once platinum version, but then their website shoves in your face all the things you don't get without the subscription. Don't we have enough of those subs already?!

I do need to mention that when I first thought of this game, I only envisioned having a train with passenger cars or one with freight cars having to pass the station to "pickup the passengers or goods" so knowing what cars are behind the loco becomes much less important, I do want to keep the barrier to entry for others to try implementing this a low as possible. So LCS sensor tracks or IRV2s(now available to order again) and some indicator of passenger accumulation at each station are the only pieces needed to play. I am certainly down to get into the weeds with using LCS modules like the STM2 to do some cool occupation detection for the people that want to go hardcore with this on their layouts. Thus bringing actual freight switching and splitting into the game. It certainly makes my code work much harder to have it understand where cars are at and to then try and incorporate that into the job requests. But besides doing what I would have fun with, I want to make a version that anyone can implement on their own as well, and maybe play with their friends and guests.

@Tracker John posted:

I just finished a "game" session on my "Time Waster" switching layout.  5 switches and 9 sensor tracks in a 75" module.  The end goal of building this layout is using LCS to provide automated shunting of cars from the starting positions to end positions with the classic Time Saver layout's restrictions on siding lengths.  A dice roll is a good way to order the cars on the main line with another roll to determine destinations.  There are practical problems to automation.

LCS signals the passing of locomotive or the (rare) sensor car.  The presence of, and number, of cars coupled to the front and rear of the loco is unknown so the controlling software has to maintain the state of trains on the layout.  Lionel needs to provide additional sensor car and train detection options.  How about a kit to retrofit cabeese or other cars in our rosters to add input to sensor tracks?   I'm sure Ryan can comment on how simple this can be if the LCRU receiver and logic in the sensor car is replaced with a simpler configuration mechanism.

The 1 to 98 address space of TMCC1 and TMCC protocols can quickly fill up with engine sensor IDs, but TMCC 0xFE and TMCC2 0XF8, 0xF9, and 0xFB commands can be extended to support a multitude of sensors (what was planned for the 0xFA address space?).

How about a "Train on Track" detection using insulated rails that feeds into a STM2 clone that transmits a "train entered" or "train exited" for a number of attached detection tracks and can be queried by software to learn the state of the detection track.  (An insulated rail detection track that feeds a DC polarity signal (occupied | empty) to the STM2 is very feasible - I leave that board design to the H/W gurus).

With a shunting layout, command latency is an issue - the sidings are not long enough to allow slack in stopping the switching engine before cars are pushed off the end.  In particular, Lionel's LCS App's suppressing control input for 3 seconds while it displays sensor track information is a big design miss.  Wrecks await.  I'm hoping that a Base3-related update to the App will fix this.  The latency issue is a problem with all automation software as our track plans are compressed representation of a prototype and leave little slack for managing train speeds.  Better detection of train position is essential.

Don't get me started on recalcitrant coupler opening and closing.   Grrrr.

Automation with existing LCS products is going to be a challenge.  Lionel has opportunities here.

First of all, that is a really cool thought, to use the classic timesaver layout as an LCS based automation platform/demo.

Maybe we actually start a side thread on that too, The LCS Timesavers Layout. I want to build one already. Plus, it can be a fun way to make a standardized layout for my game system too. I can implement waiting passengers or freight on that fixed size and pre-determined layout. It can serve as an automatic scoreboard for your progress on the timesavers puzzle. The Doodlebug (for both cargo and passengers) I just picked up would probably be pretty good for this. Along with 1 M7 car, and maybe a NW2 switcher and or 0-6-0 Docksider (best bargain pint size fun by the way).

As for replacing the sensor car, you know I already have most of that covered, right? A postage stamp sized board is all it takes. And I actually just had the idea now. Since my replacement sensor car transmitter board doesn't have the legacy signal receiver. I could just program it using a PDI cable connection and the CAB2!! Add a little PDI port on the board, plug it into LCS with a spare PDI cable to program it and replace it back on the track when done.

I will have to do some digging on those extended commands to see if they can help.

I could certainly look into adding support for the STM2 data for a challenge mode version of the game I'd say. Certainly would be good to generate automatic and random movement orders based on actual rolling stock locations. A custom module wouldn't be too bad. I could call it the LCS BDM Block Detection Module. For using the STM2 I could also create a board that converts isolated rail grounds to positive and negative DC, Probably can pull it off with a negative voltage switching transistor, a current limiting resistor and a pull-up resistor.

The base 3 App is great. The basically it's all cab2 functionality in an app derived from the LionCheif app. Though as of right now, I don't think it does much to replace the LCS App yet. No map view as of the last time I saw it at the Springfield Train Show.

@Hannibal-St Joseph RR posted:

I love the recognition on this thread that our model railroad layouts can be large game boards.  That’s how I think of mine - even though I have no intention of automating - it’s still an interactive game with complex pieces and local rules.  Fun!

Absolutely, It was that one club-mate with the dice that taught me that lesson, many things can be turned into a game for the fun of it. If you want more rules, just get more prototypical. Want new pieces, go buy more trains.

Ryan, using the PDI buss to communicate to a 3rd party module is problematic.  The buss runs at 115Kbaud and comms are received by each LCS module and retransmitted to the next module on the chain.  (I've seen PDI described as multidrop, by my understanding of Jon Z's posts is the PDI is a daisy chain). Lionel has not published any H/W interface details, so I think they would discourage a non-standard device on the PDI.  If  If you are talking about using the SER2 to output bytes at 9.6Kbaud to an external board, then that will work.  If your board has a "program/run" switch, then the TMCC bytes to "set" locos can be used configure the board.

An interface to the STM2 for track detection has to be via a connection to the LCS (or Base3) WiFi.  The PDI Protocol carries a lot of data to/from the LCS modules that is not pushed out to serial comms by the SER2.  The STM2 sends a status change packet when a switch is thrown and the STM2 can be queried to get the status of each switch's position.  Since the STM2 determines switch position by the polarity (+/- 5v) of a single wire coming from Fastrack switches, I believe the STM2 can be easily repurposed for track detection if tracks can output the polarity signal based on train presence.

@Tracker John posted:

Ryan, using the PDI buss to communicate to a 3rd party module is problematic.  The buss runs at 115Kbaud and comms are received by each LCS module and retransmitted to the next module on the chain.  (I've seen PDI described as multidrop, by my understanding of Jon Z's posts is the PDI is a daisy chain). Lionel has not published any H/W interface details, so I think they would discourage a non-standard device on the PDI.  If  If you are talking about using the SER2 to output bytes at 9.6Kbaud to an external board, then that will work.  If your board has a "program/run" switch, then the TMCC bytes to "set" locos can be used configure the board.

An interface to the STM2 for track detection has to be via a connection to the LCS (or Base3) WiFi.  The PDI Protocol carries a lot of data to/from the LCS modules that is not pushed out to serial comms by the SER2.  The STM2 sends a status change packet when a switch is thrown and the STM2 can be queried to get the status of each switch's position.  Since the STM2 determines switch position by the polarity (+/- 5v) of a single wire coming from Fastrack switches, I believe the STM2 can be easily repurposed for track detection if tracks can output the polarity signal based on train presence.

The good news is that if my device is at the end of the PDI chain, I don't have to worry too much about retransmitting. Also as an LCS Partner I realize just what I'm up against. In my conversation with Dave at the Lionel booth of the Springfield train show, He is happy to just see LCS getting expanded. He also liked the tricks I was doing with that LionChief Gateway board of mine. He assured me that unlike a certain company that starts with an M and ends with an H, I won't be getting any angry lawyer letters for adding new features to LCS.
The robustness of the PDI protocol means the barrier to entry is way higher than the SER2, but like you mentioned, it also blocks the messages I need for these features. For the game module, I want to keep the latency as low as possible and keep the connection process simple. So PDI is my best bet I feel. I also had not even thought about the fact that the sensor track signal would exist on LCS wifi to support the LCS app, regardless, using wifi for all my plans would be a support nightmare.  As for the DIY Sensor Car board, it really can go either way. Plus, once we are all running the base 3 if you would be forced to buy a SER2 just for the occasional DIY Sensor Car ID change. Base 3 has 3 LCS ports, so plugging into the end of the chain is about to get even easier. I could also update the car by USB, but then you are asking people to install programs and use the computer. That would be even less user-friendly than the using the set button. A run/prgm switch shouldn't be necessary, since the DIY sensor car would only be getting TMCC data because you have physically connected it to the PDI cable for programming. When done, you would unplug it, and it would be back "offline" as far as communications are concerned. Simply transmitting the IR data it is expected to, in a loop.

I haven't picked up an STM2 yet, so I didn't know it also keeps its data to the PDI bus like the sensor tracks. And yeah I figured it worked by voltage reversal since that is a common signal method between different switch motor models. Getting the tracks to indicate by positive and negative voltage like that should be straight forward electrically. I would also add in an opto-isolator to keep the rest of the circuit safe from spikes and what not that I have seen kill off trackside signal boards.

I don't have any LCS modules yet, but a conversation like this is definitely enough to push me over the edge.  Now that those IRV2s are back in the catalog, I've got one on order (let's hope they get made).  I don't have any experience with LCS obviously, but I've always been one to tinker with anything I can take apart.

I'm currently building a 10x20 layout in the garage, and one of my fears is that by the time I actually get trains running on it, I'll be bored of the configuration.  Making it fresh by simply changing the rules or randomization of a "game" sounds like a great way to prevent that.

A couple of questions come to mind.

1. Would you need two sensors at each "stop" to ensure that you are indeed stopped?  I assume that loading/unloading passengers/freight would not be instant, but rather happen as some rate, requiring you to stay put for a certain amount of time.
2. Would it require some graphical interface?  Could you get away without one if the signals at each stop are sophisticated enough to tell you what the destination is rather than just how much wants to board the train.
3. Speaking of indicators, I assume that would be some sort of LED display.  Would that receive signal via TMCC, LCS, or some other dedicated method?

I've got a lot of other thoughts, but in short, I'm 100% on board, and will gladly contribute if possible.

I imagine you could almost implement this entirely in a stand-alone serial TMCC module that has the indicators for a particular station.  Sensor tracks could send recorded commands to these modules as long as they are aware of all the other modules on the layout.  I suppose that method isn't a very spectacular demonstration of the capabilities of LCS though.

@Patrick Keistler posted:

I don't have any LCS modules yet, but a conversation like this is definitely enough to push me over the edge.  Now that those IRV2s are back in the catalog, I've got one on order (let's hope they get made).  I don't have any experience with LCS obviously, but I've always been one to tinker with anything I can take apart.

I'm currently building a 10x20 layout in the garage, and one of my fears is that by the time I actually get trains running on it, I'll be bored of the configuration.  Making it fresh by simply changing the rules or randomization of a "game" sounds like a great way to prevent that.

A couple of questions come to mind.

1. Would you need two sensors at each "stop" to ensure that you are indeed stopped?  I assume that loading/unloading passengers/freight would not be instant, but rather happen as some rate, requiring you to stay put for a certain amount of time.
2. Would it require some graphical interface?  Could you get away without one if the signals at each stop are sophisticated enough to tell you what the destination is rather than just how much wants to board the train.
3. Speaking of indicators, I assume that would be some sort of LED display.  Would that receive signal via TMCC, LCS, or some other dedicated method?

I've got a lot of other thoughts, but in short, I'm 100% on board, and will gladly contribute if possible.

I imagine you could almost implement this entirely in a stand-alone serial TMCC module that has the indicators for a particular station.  Sensor tracks could send recorded commands to these modules as long as they are aware of all the other modules on the layout.  I suppose that method isn't a very spectacular demonstration of the capabilities of LCS though.

I'm happy to hear the enthusiasm, I agree whole heartedly. As you can imagine, I'm also all about tinkering. The IRV2s are definitely getting made. Plus anything that creates demand for them might see them continue to be made this time around.

You really only need one sensor track or slead each station considering that one will tell you the ID of the engine that just passed and what direction it's moving. Depending on the direction of travel you're just going to have to offer them up a window of time to stop in order for it to count depending on the speed. This can be tweaked as needed during testing. But knowing the idea of the engine that just passed means I also will be able to find out how fast it's going. I will also know when it stops because the game module will watch the communications. The rule could be that if the engine crosses the sensor below a certain speed and stops within a fixed number of seconds, it will count as a stop for that station. Once the loading is completed, as indicated by the empty station occupancy, you are then able to leave.

I think we should have further discussion on any type of graphical interface. I am hoping to avoid screens in favor of something like an LED scoreboard with numeric display modules and maybe some text output to handle things like an upgrade system for the more involved game modes. Maybe a bunch of led dot matrix displays give the best flexibility there. I mean if it was up to me I'd have an electromechanical flip dot display like a old school train station or airport would have had.

I definitely would want to keep a lightweight game mode that could possibly be enjoyed by the public at a train show. But also other modes for different types of games involving things like feature unlocks and upgrades, I really also want to play with the idea of restricting myself from which locomotives can used initially at the start of a game. The best games are the ones that you can upgrade yourself during the course of.

As for the game indicators at the stations/industries:

There definitely is a need for a new module to run the game, that module can then power whatever device ends up making the most sense to use at the individual stops, a very budget-friendly choice would just be a color changing LED, placed by each station or industry. One color changing can certainly convey a lot of information like green for no passengers, yellow for some, red for a lot. Flashing red penalty mode for being ignored for too long.

For a bit more representation than just color we could use an addressable pixel tape light to have more lights that flash based on demand. No lights for no passengers, one light for 1-5, two lights for 6-20 and so on.

I definitely like the thought of using something like a drum head signal to indicate this as well. Or maybe these other lights I described could be concealed as a track side signal pole.

I have some 3D printers and a laser cutter at home, so maybe I can make some cool custom indicators for all this. (The only downside is I have a blue diode laser cutter which means I can't cut clear acrylic, some other colors are difficult, other colors work fine and wood is definitely fine.) I'm almost envisioning a little box with three or four windows that light up showing different crowd sizes on a small pedestal next to each stop.

Okay. I see how looking in on train control signals can accomplish the same task as having a second sensor.  Much more reasonable to have just one sensor per stop.  That makes one IRV2 and one sensor add-on package for a total of 4 sensors a very sensible starting setup.  Add in your new game module with 4 indicators and a scoreboard and you're in business.

I've got a desktop CO2 laser that could make quick work of clear acrylic, and I'm happy to help with prototyping if you like.

A couple of ideas have crossed my mind on how to indicate a destination.  You could have a separate "bank" of lights for each destination, but that could get out of control pretty quick if you've got a large number of stops.  Another option would be to use the colors to represent the destination.  Like if each indicator had a light on top that could become a unique color, then if you see that color indicated on the board of another station, you'd know where to take that "thing."  Perhaps a blinking or pulsing pattern could separate departures from arrivals.  Maybe you've got two separate stands for each station, one for departures and one for arrivals.  Then you could save color for the type or quantity of things being transported (freight, people, etc.)

Now I need to go get my layout to a minimally functioning state so I can participate!  I mentioned that I was excited about it right?

My RDC board game deals only with passengers.  (It was too hard to represent multi-car freight trains and keep everything together using only magnets on the back of a steel baking pan!)  Passengers randomly appear, desiring to go to one of four stations.  For the O gauge version, I was intending to install LEDs in the tops of my stations to indicate the presence of passengers.  Similarly, LEDs would be installed in the roofs of the passenger cars.  So when you "pick up" a passenger, an LED on the station goes out, and one on the car illuminates.  I was planning to use battery power with hands-on selection by physical switches, or perhaps a short range multi-button addressable RF remote.

The track plan on my gameboard was purposefully designed with multiple routes and opportunities for reversing.  There are at least two ways to play my game:  The first, is that each train has to complete its delivery via specific track segments determined by drawn cards.  This emphasizes planning and efficient routing.  The second way is that a conductor is free to choose the shortest route.  However, segment cards can be used to claim bonuses for traveling over those segments (even though they may not be on the shortest route to the passengers' desired destination.)  As I said, this isn't a simulation of real railroading!  In either case, trade-offs are what make it fun.  Multiple trains vying for the same passengers or the same track segment create interaction and the need for cooperation.  Observers get to see multiple trains navigating the entire network, and rarely following the same path twice.

Getting back to LEDs, two years ago Lionel introduced a "light-up" Fastrack that could serve as a visual indication of target segments in the O gauge version of my game.  Of course LEDs can be installed in any roadbed, or next to the track where they would be more visible.  Depending on game play, multiple colors could be used to designate each conductor's target segments.  I was also planning to control these LEDs manually with toggle switches.  In a perfect world, the "game engine" (a computer program) would generate signals that go through an Arduino or custom circuit which turns the LEDs on at random, and off when a sensor track registers passage of the obliged vehicle(s).

Lionel's LCS app already has layout-building tools and a nifty graphical representation which allows control of track switches.  IMO, any layout complex enough to host this kind of game-- multiple alternate routes, multiple trains-- would benefit from iPad-based control of switches and junctions.  Whether the layout representation in the LCS app could be enhanced to show sources and destinations for passengers and cargo is something that only Lionel could answer.

I agree that a "scoreboard" will increase interest and engagement.  I'm planning to have a chalkboard in the train room to keep track of the most prolific crews over multiple sessions.  I'm planning to award laminated photo cards, or even Hallmark Lionel ornaments as keepsakes for participants.  I'm determined to make this "game" / operating scheme interesting and fun for my non-train friends, scout groups, sick children visiting with their families from the hospital across the street -- people who have never been exposed to model trains or the fun that you can have with them.  But turning the LEDs on and off, keeping track of routes with cards, etc., will be a full-time job.  Automating these tasks with LCS and custom hardware such as you are building would allow me to interact with my guests, which is a huge win!

@Patrick Keistler posted:

Okay. I see how looking in on train control signals can accomplish the same task as having a second sensor.  Much more reasonable to have just one sensor per stop.  That makes one IRV2 and one sensor add-on package for a total of 4 sensors a very sensible starting setup.  Add in your new game module with 4 indicators and a scoreboard and you're in business.

I've got a desktop CO2 laser that could make quick work of clear acrylic, and I'm happy to help with prototyping if you like.

A couple of ideas have crossed my mind on how to indicate a destination.  You could have a separate "bank" of lights for each destination, but that could get out of control pretty quick if you've got a large number of stops.  Another option would be to use the colors to represent the destination.  Like if each indicator had a light on top that could become a unique color, then if you see that color indicated on the board of another station, you'd know where to take that "thing."  Perhaps a blinking or pulsing pattern could separate departures from arrivals.  Maybe you've got two separate stands for each station, one for departures and one for arrivals.  Then you could save color for the type or quantity of things being transported (freight, people, etc.)

Now I need to go get my layout to a minimally functioning state so I can participate!  I mentioned that I was excited about it right?

Exactly, That's the idea. Technically, you can play with a simple oval with 4 stops around it. 1 passing loop or siding makes it better, adding a maintenance spur track even better, and beyond that the fun/options can only multiply.

That's awesome to hear, I can also start off prototyping in wood to make things simple, but it's great to have the option of doing clear. One idea is to have edge-lit etched people on the acrylic. The more we can do with laser the better since it's so fast to assemble.

How about this for a destination indicator, each player could get an assigned color and after picking up their load, all the station lights go out and only the destination stays lit, flashing that player's color. Maybe they can use the remote to do something like blow the horn 4 times to cause the stations to temporarily go out and mark their station again if they missed it the first time or just forgot where they are going. The cool part is, thanks to my previous efforts with the LionChief signals, (as seen on my youtube channel) I can also let you assign a LionChief remote to any combination of the players you like(that extra flexibility requires my LC Gateway). Even if they are controlling a legacy engine. So using the horn is simpler than pressing something like aux1+9, using the horn just ensures multi remote compatibility.

As for the lights, we have a bit of time to figure out what works. I have all types of addressable WS2811 type LED strands and tape strips to play around with. I wonder if we can make a decent trackside signal style housing with just the laser cutter again, since it is so much faster and more reliable than printing. At least in my experience.

It really shouldn't take much to start playing. Do you have the bench work laid down yet?

@Ted S posted:

My RDC board game deals only with passengers.  (It was too hard to represent multi-car freight trains and keep everything together using only magnets on the back of a steel baking pan!)  Passengers randomly appear, desiring to go to one of four stations.  For the O gauge version, I was intending to install LEDs in the tops of my stations to indicate the presence of passengers.  Similarly, LEDs would be installed in the roofs of the passenger cars.  So when you "pick up" a passenger, an LED on the station goes out, and one on the car illuminates.  I was planning to use battery power with hands-on selection by physical switches, or perhaps a short range multi-button addressable RF remote.

The track plan on my gameboard was purposefully designed with multiple routes and opportunities for reversing.  There are at least two ways to play my game:  The first, is that each train has to complete its delivery via specific track segments determined by drawn cards.  This emphasizes planning and efficient routing.  The second way is that a conductor is free to choose the shortest route.  However, segment cards can be used to claim bonuses for traveling over those segments (even though they may not be on the shortest route to the passengers' desired destination.)  As I said, this isn't a simulation of real railroading!  In either case, trade-offs are what make it fun.  Multiple trains vying for the same passengers or the same track segment create interaction and the need for cooperation.  Observers get to see multiple trains navigating the entire network, and rarely following the same path twice.

Getting back to LEDs, two years ago Lionel introduced a "light-up" Fastrack that could serve as a visual indication of target segments in the O gauge version of my game.  Of course LEDs can be installed in any roadbed, or next to the track where they would be more visible.  Depending on game play, multiple colors could be used to designate each conductor's target segments.  I was also planning to control these LEDs manually with toggle switches.  In a perfect world, the "game engine" (a computer program) would generate signals that go through an Arduino or custom circuit which turns the LEDs on at random, and off when a sensor track registers passage of the obliged vehicle(s).

Lionel's LCS app already has layout-building tools and a nifty graphical representation which allows control of track switches.  IMO, any layout complex enough to host this kind of game-- multiple alternate routes, multiple trains-- would benefit from iPad-based control of switches and junctions.  Whether the layout representation in the LCS app could be enhanced to show sources and destinations for passengers and cargo is something that only Lionel could answer.

I agree that a "scoreboard" will increase interest and engagement.  I'm planning to have a chalkboard in the train room to keep track of the most prolific crews over multiple sessions.  I'm planning to award laminated photo cards, or even Hallmark Lionel ornaments as keepsakes for participants.  I'm determined to make this "game" / operating scheme interesting and fun for my non-train friends, scout groups, sick children visiting with their families from the hospital across the street -- people who have never been exposed to model trains or the fun that you can have with them.  But turning the LEDs on and off, keeping track of routes with cards, etc., will be a full-time job.  Automating these tasks with LCS and custom hardware such as you are building would allow me to interact with my guests, which is a huge win!

All based on the kind of player, I want to make at least 3 modes of game play. Mode 1 Simple: Get passengers before they give up waiting. (good for plublic/show layouts). Mode 2 Pickup and Delivery Bring to correct stations for reward. Mode 3 all features we can imagine. Realistic car switching, maybe we require timetables with penalties for delays. Other ideas for game modes for faster paced play could be a simple "keep all the passengers happy", all stations slowly gain passengers. Simply visit a station to reset the count, if any station becomes overloaded the game ends, the player with the most collected passengers wins, and after a set grace period timer the passengers come faster and faster until the game ends. Maybe there could be a race the clock mode, most passengers in a set time. or a beat your best times mode with hard set actions during the game that are the same each time to see how much you can improve.

With your gameboard, Is the idea that everyone builds the same as you in order to match or was the game board only physically required to track which stations had people waiting. I agree that during the course of the game, you should have to converse with the other players about who will wait at a siding for trains to pass. It gives a sense of realism with clearing the mainline. Imagine if a segment was indicated with a piece of fastrack flashing along the game's selected bonus route. An extra sensor track could grant you the bonus for taking that route.

And one idea for introducing passenger counts onto the LCS app screen would be to add fake virtual sensor tracks (with an ID the matches the sensor at each station) and use their ability to popup text on the screen to show a station's "engine name" where each station has an engine ID with a name that shows how many passengers are waiting. The game code would update the number of passengers into the name of the station's "Engine ID" and tell the LCS system that this engine has passed over the sensor track associated with that station.

And you had my heart at sick children. Talk about giving a project purpose. I would do anything for kids. Sick kids, 10 times as much. So heartwarming. Now I'm going to have to step on the gas with this.

You can give those out yet still control even older (pre Bluetooth) legacy or TMCC engines. By connecting the remote to the game instead of directly to the engine, we can also enforce top speed limits to prevent any crazy expensive engines from flying off the layout too. (something that literally happened to a prototype at the Lionel booth this year). I also have a way to throw layout switches with the LionChief Remotes.

Your game kind of reminds me of my old PC Lionel Traintown game. The game is a puzzle game that features a simple interface to run trains, throw switches, and move cargo and passengers to different locations on each layout. The game also features track laying, track repairs with a handcar, snowplow, or crane car, and a bunch of fun, interactive buildings and industries. I still play the game occasionally. The game is one of the things that got me into Lionel Trains.

Ryan, I would advise against any kind of "race the clock" scenario.  That's going to lead to very fast running and probably some spectacular wrecks (unless that's what you're looking for.)  Personally I'm going to avoid it.

Your "Mode 2" is the most similar to my board game.  Each passenger (a penny nail) is painted one of four theme colors which correspond to the four stations on my board.  Once picked up, a passenger can only be delivered to a station of the corresponding color for points.  Monopoly dollars are awarded to keep track of points for both passengers and bonus segments.

My prototype gameboard has a pre-existing, fixed track configuration which is used by all players, and provides a persistent visual representation of the game state.  Players take turns moving their "RDCs" (bits of wood with a magnet on the bottom) around the track route network to pick up and deliver passengers.  Since my game is turn-based, I introduced a "red block" rule.  Basically a player can't move into a track segment if doing so would create an unavoidable head-on collision with another train.  In my game the trains only run forward.  This is unrealistic, but it makes the game more interesting.

For purposes of the game, I defined a "segment" as all of the track between any two switches.  Segment length can be anywhere from 10" to 10 feet.  Your idea about the flashing LEDs to indicate a bonus or required route is exactly what I was thinking, although in the real world, you might need a lot of LEDs!  Only one sensor would be needed anywhere within a segment to confirm that a player's train crossed it.

I live in the Fort Worth medical district and have many friends who work in health professions.  My layout will be on the ground floor of my home, just inside the front door.  The room is tight, but if the concept creates joy on a small-scale, maybe I could get buy-in to build something larger off-premises.  I also hope to host young adults with autism, scout groups, and especially my friends!  So many people haven't been properly exposed to our hobby.  Hands-off round-and-round running like I used to do at train shows doesn't win many converts IMO.

Because CAB-2s are pricey and now discontinued, I was planning to run trains with CAB-1Ls.  I'm still working out how I can integrate freight into my model economy.  I would love to include physical operating accessories too, like the magnetic crane, culvert loader, barrel loader, cattle pen, etc.  Perhaps not strictly realistic, but they are fun and interactive, even if they don't work perfectly every time.  I want what I build to foster interaction with the machines but especially between operators.  Also, variety, and imagination.

@Dylan the Train Man posted:

Your game kind of reminds me of my old PC Lionel Traintown game. The game is a puzzle game that features a simple interface to run trains, throw switches, and move cargo and passengers to different locations on each layout. The game also features track laying, track repairs with a handcar, snowplow, or crane car, and a bunch of fun, interactive buildings and industries. I still play the game occasionally. The game is one of the things that got me into Lionel Trains.

Maybe I should check that game for reference.

Imagine a snow mode for this LCS game, where you need to use a plow train to clear a route before it gets snowed over again. Taking the lighted track idea up a notch, the unplowed tracks could glow white or non lighted tracks can have a white light next to them, meaning only the plow train can cross. Now I need to buy a plow car! Thanks.

@Ted S posted:

Ryan, I would advise against any kind of "race the clock" scenario.  That's going to lead to very fast running and probably some spectacular wrecks (unless that's what you're looking for.)  Personally I'm going to avoid it.

Your "Mode 2" is the most similar to my board game.  Each passenger (a penny nail) is painted one of four theme colors which correspond to the four stations on my board.  Once picked up, a passenger can only be delivered to a station of the corresponding color for points.  Monopoly dollars are awarded to keep track of points for both passengers and bonus segments.

My prototype gameboard has a pre-existing, fixed track configuration which is used by all players, and provides a persistent visual representation of the game state.  Players take turns moving their "RDCs" (bits of wood with a magnet on the bottom) around the track route network to pick up and deliver passengers.  Since my game is turn-based, I introduced a "red block" rule.  Basically a player can't move into a track segment if doing so would create an unavoidable head-on collision with another train.  In my game the trains only run forward.  This is unrealistic, but it makes the game more interesting.

For purposes of the game, I defined a "segment" as all of the track between any two switches.  Segment length can be anywhere from 10" to 10 feet.  Your idea about the flashing LEDs to indicate a bonus or required route is exactly what I was thinking, although in the real world, you might need a lot of LEDs!  Only one sensor would be needed anywhere within a segment to confirm that a player's train crossed it.

I live in the Fort Worth medical district and have many friends who work in health professions.  My layout will be on the ground floor of my home, just inside the front door.  The room is tight, but if the concept creates joy on a small-scale, maybe I could get buy-in to build something larger off-premises.  I also hope to host young adults with autism, scout groups, and especially my friends!  So many people haven't been properly exposed to our hobby.  Hands-off round-and-round running like I used to do at train shows doesn't win many converts IMO.

Because CAB-2s are pricey and now discontinued, I was planning to run trains with CAB-1Ls.  I'm still working out how I can integrate freight into my model economy.  I would love to include physical operating accessories too, like the magnetic crane, culvert loader, barrel loader, cattle pen, etc.  Perhaps not strictly realistic, but they are fun and interactive, even if they don't work perfectly every time.  I want what I build to foster interaction with the machines but especially between operators.  Also, variety, and imagination.

You're right about that. We can ditch the race against the clock idea, lol. I am typing as I think here, So not all ideas will be fully baked.

As a side note, your board game does sound like a neat thing to have around a train room.

It actually took me until now to realize that your board game was not being used in pair with a real train layout, and existed entirely independent of any physical trains. I honestly thought the board game was used to track progress on your actual layout, since it would be difficult to place people at each station manually. Guess I was being dense there.

Also, you just gave me an idea, to monitor which route was taken since we know what engine was as the start and end of a route, we could use STM2 modules with my proposed block occupancy to +5/-5 signal converter to know if they took route a or route b to get there. I have to say, I love the idea of having a forwards only mode in this game too!! Or imagine a mode where you start off with forwards only and have to earn money to unlock reverse!

And you're right about that. I really should try to convince my club to add this game to their modular layout. I am about to run trains round-and-round tomorrow, and you're right. Plus, it would keep us members entertained at the show too. It's a shame my club would probably never let me add something like this to the club layout since the current leadership wants to keep things "simple", not even connecting switches to the CAB-2 for Pete's sake. Like only one interconnection between two of the six loops, simple! The modular layout is simple enough I might sway hearts. Also, I have some friends in the NJ Hi-railers I might be able to talk into adding some part of the game there. (too bad they are over an hour away from me) That club actually likes doing cool stuff with their trains.

I was literally forgetting the CAB-1L existed for a minute there. I meant to buy one at the awesome new Lionel Store in Nashville at the Opry Mills Mall while I was visiting the town last week. Got distracted and bought the doodlebug instead. (they have excellent prices there, but it's all in store only. They can't even put the prices or inventory online.)
No question about there being more fun with all those operating accessories. I seriously wonder why we don't get new operating cattle cars or new log loaders these days. They do have the new operating freight terminal, but nothing actually gets added to the cars like the old candy cars did. Shame. At least this game will let you foster interaction with sharing the track blocks/segments. We could have enforced block occupancy where you cannot drive past a red signal, but that would probably go over the line with the number of sensor tracks at that point.

@Ted S you're point about the different colored pegs indicating different passenger destinations, makes me wonder if we should not only implement that on the scoreboard, maybe by indicating bar graphs of a certain color for a certain station destination or simply a bar graph below a freght/passenger station letter. Maybe we sort those bar graphs based on which passengers have been waiting the longest to get to their stop. A much less important factor for freight. On the subject of scoreboards maybe there are individual player dashboards that light up to show their individual trains cargo destinations. All of these dashboards or scoreboards could be produced and etched by laser. The individual player dashboards could be placed on top of music stands.

These are all considerations for the more complex mode 2.

Max7219 displays are among the cheapest options but they are usually only single color.

Addressable pixel matrixes have beed falling in price thanks to the slight popularity of those backpacks with built-in screens. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DC0IPVU/

32 bucks on that gets you 8x32 RGB pixels controlled by 3 wires, not a bad deal.

24 bucks from adafruit gets you a 16x32 RGB display panel. They're usually used on times square billboard type displays and have a bit more wires involved. I made a scrolling advertisement sign for my shop using like six of these together. They use hub75 which is another daisy chained standard.

https://www.adafruit.com/product/420

And to connect the display you are usually best off getting a adapter like this https://www.adafruit.com/product/3036 which converts the connector on that display into something that can plug into an accompanying microcontroller

Like this 20 dollar one with a 915 MHz radio onboard for comms back to the LCS Game Module . https://www.adafruit.com/product/5712

Also on the subject of LEDs we have these very nice candidates for station waiting lights https://www.adafruit.com/product/1547 of course you would cut the individual modules up to place around the layout as needed.

In my board game, the only record of passenger deliveries is the stack of dollars awarded.  Segments eligible for bonus are randomly determined by drawn cards and marked by a magnetic disc.  When someone passes over the segment, they claim the disc and flip over another card to identify the next bonus segment.  The discs are tallied up at the end of the game.  So there's not a "scoreboard"--during the game, it's not readily apparent who's winning.

My vision is that the O gauge version of the game would be more about cooperation than competition.  Everyone works as part of a "crew."  How many points can that crew score in 45 minutes, either by completing deliveries, or earning bonuses for track segments and scenario cards?

I haven't discussed scenarios in this thread, because their completion probably isn't something that could be verified by LCS.  Among other things, the scenarios might refer to specific equipment.  They could be incorporated dynamically through a "deck-building" process.  Example: CSX is famous for its Juice train running from Florida to the northeast.  If you come to visit and bring a CSX diesel, we shuffle a few cards into the deck that award extra points for pulling an orange juice reefer with a CSX locomotive.  The potential scenarios are only limited by your imagination.  They can be realistic, or completely fanciful, like "every car in your freight train must have the color blue."  This would depend on the age and background of the crew.

In any case, these game mechanisms ascribe purpose to building trains and running them.  They encourage variety in terms of the make-up of trains, and which tracks they run on.  During an operating session, even a passive observer would get to see many different trains doing different things.

@Ted S posted:

In my board game, the only record of passenger deliveries is the stack of dollars awarded.  Segments eligible for bonus are randomly determined by drawn cards and marked by a magnetic disc.  When someone passes over the segment, they claim the disc and flip over another card to identify the next bonus segment.  The discs are tallied up at the end of the game.  So there's not a "scoreboard"--during the game, it's not readily apparent who's winning.

My vision is that the O gauge version of the game would be more about cooperation than competition.  Everyone works as part of a "crew."  How many points can that crew score in 45 minutes, either by completing deliveries, or earning bonuses for track segments and scenario cards?

I haven't discussed scenarios in this thread, because their completion probably isn't something that could be verified by LCS.  Among other things, the scenarios might refer to specific equipment.  They could be incorporated dynamically through a "deck-building" process.  Example: CSX is famous for its Juice train running from Florida to the northeast.  If you come to visit and bring a CSX diesel, we shuffle a few cards into the deck that award extra points for pulling an orange juice reefer with a CSX locomotive.  The potential scenarios are only limited by your imagination.  They can be realistic, or completely fanciful, like "every car in your freight train must have the color blue."  This would depend on the age and background of the crew.

In any case, these game mechanisms ascribe purpose to building trains and running them.  They encourage variety in terms of the make-up of trains, and which tracks they run on.  During an operating session, even a passive observer would get to see many different trains doing different things.

On the subject of cooperation. We could have a pass the baton mode. Where each player (assigned to an engine ID) must bring the baton car (with an LCS IR Transmitter on board) must be brought on a trip by all players working together.

I would say let's have co-op mode be an option based on the players. I personally want to be able to compete with my friend, but that's also how so many PC games involving rail operations were set up. Even monopoly is about making the most at the end of the day. It adds a driving motivation. The trick with co-op is making the right reward system. We could call co-op, crew mode, but how the rest of the game mechanics would work seem to get a little more murky now.

Scenarios could be implemented if I could simplify the DIY add-on sensor transmitter to maybe the size of an AirTag. Making them into small wireless charged devices that have a battery inside the small housing. This could then be hot glued to any number of freight cars to then create sorting puzzles and everything you just mentioned.

I still have to get through the thread but I think this is a great idea. I was planning to work on something similar using RFID tags or infrared readers that report back to an Arduino/SBC to move product around the layout. I specifically designed my layout to have destinations. An RFID chip on the car and reader at the station would let me pick up and drop off product (people or freight).

Being able to do this with LCS would be awesome! It's way over my head but that's never stopped me before. I'm going to finish reading the thread tonight and tomorrow but I think this is a great idea and would bring waybill/purpose driven operations to a lot of people!

Also following this thread because I want to be able to write programs that can read and write to LCS and sensor track.

@BillYo414 posted:

I still have to get through the thread but I think this is a great idea. I was planning to work on something similar using RFID tags or infrared readers that report back to an Arduino/SBC to move product around the layout. I specifically designed my layout to have destinations. An RFID chip on the car and reader at the station would let me pick up and drop off product (people or freight).

Being able to do this with LCS would be awesome! It's way over my head but that's never stopped me before. I'm going to finish reading the thread tonight and tomorrow but I think this is a great idea and would bring waybill/purpose driven operations to a lot of people!

Yeah, the main reason I wanted to try this with nothing but LCS is ease of adoption and wiring. I want to make sure for at least the basic modes of this game you would not need to touch a computer. Just plug this game module into LCS with a PDI cable (the base 3 will have 3 of these PDI ports built in).  Maybe the add-on scoreboard can just communicate wirelessly to the game module to keep things simple. The scoreboard can be powered by a type c charger.
The legacy engines already broadcast enough identifying info at all times, and the sensor track IRV2 especially make it pretty reasonable to add up to 4 sensor locations at once. I have full intentions to release both a kit to retrofit IR transmitters to existing engines/rolling stock, along with the info to build one yourself for those who have the desire.

As for the station marker lights, the Raspberry PI Pico W would be a pretty cheap way to wirelessly add station occupancy indicators for this game, and they could technically use track power to run. I would love to create my own TMCC decoder board to just read commands right off the track. But that seems a ways off, my only hope there might be to try and reverse engineer a spare R2LC board I have. An LCS BPC2 Block Power Controller or DIY BPC equivalent module could also be used to drive the station passenger/freight count lights.

The current delay on my side is getting past the hard part, implementing the raw pdi connection interface.