Is the MTH 20-3303-1 a true 1:48?

This loco should be true 1:48 scale, as all the Premier locos of American prototypes are.

Be aware that the SP GS-4 typically pulled streamlined cars, at least in its heyday.

Virtually all the MTH Premier locomotive models are true scale, I'm 99.9% certain that the MTH Premier GS4 is truly 1:48 size.  It'll certainly also be way better detailed than the Williams GS4.

Emily, not to muddy the waters on your search, but the PS2 and PS3 versions of the models you’re looking in MTH are much more detailed than the early PS1 models,…..look at the details of 20-3303-1 vs. 20-3302-1 as one example……MTH really stepped up their game beginning with the PS2 line as far as rich details ….

Pat

Williams and Lionel Madison cars are compressed semi-scale.

Both engines are scale and run well. It comes down to value. The Williams engine is worth about half the MTH engine due to the lack of detail and the additional features of the MTH engine. Lionel has a made a few sets of SP heavyweights in 15” and 18”. The 18” have a scale profile, just shortened.

SP only had about 20 heavyweight cars painted in Daylight colors and more than half were round roof Harriman cars. AFAIK only a couple of Clerestory roof cars were diners and RPOs.

Pete

Although this is an MTH Forum, and the original question is about the MTH SP GS4 models, in my opinion the absolute best, most accurate & detailed, SP GS4 (#4449) was/is the Sunset/3rd Rail model. Plus the fully scale Golden Gate Depot SP full Daylight passenger train, which included the articulated chair cars and the three section articulated Daylight diner, was the best offered in 3-Rail SCALE.

@Hot Water posted:

Although this is an MTH Forum, and the original question is about the MTH SP GS4 models, in my opinion the absolute best, most accurate & detailed, SP GS4 (#4449) was/is the Sunset/3rd Rail model. Plus the fully scale Golden Gate Depot SP full Daylight passenger train, which included the articulated chair cars and the three section articulated Daylight diner, was the best offered in 3-Rail SCALE.

What's your point?  That if you spend four or five times the money, you get a better model?  I think we kinda' understand that concept.

https://ogrforum.com/...3#157829273742009383

They might be compressed but atleast look scale in detail. That RailKing crap never looks scale. Like how they made the cow catcher shorter then the Mars light. That is just stupid.

I do want the engine to be correct.

https://ogrforum.com/...5#157829273741916915

I understand the ps1's are lightly detailed. That is why I am looking for a ps2 or 3.

https://ogrforum.com/...1#157829273741358051

I agree to an extent but the 5600 model of Williams is **** close to perfect.

He did ask whether the MTH model was full scale.  Hot responded appropriately.  MTH did wonderful models, but cut corners when they felt like it.  For instance, check the wheelbases on your favorite Diesel models.

I like Hudsons, and own an MTH j1e.  Full scale, except for the cylinder block, which was seriously undersize (fixed that in a hurry!).

But MTH's business is not full scale, it is 3-rail, with all the attendant compromises.  If you want more accurate models, go back and read Hot's post.

https://ogrforum.com/...0#157829273742420570

As stated above. There is some bad and atleast 1 good detailed Williams loco.

And I understand that most heavies are round roof but I like the look of the Madison cars.

@Emily Shelton posted:

https://ogrforum.com/...0#157829273742601300

What is the Sunset/3rd rail model? Is Sunset a brand? I believe one streamline cars are articulated. I only run heavyweight cars for passenger service.

OK, but why do you desire a model of the SP GS-4? The SP GS-4 locomotives generally did NOT pull "heavyweight" passenger cars, except for the SP Harriman cars.

https://ogrforum.com/...1#157829273743893371

I understand that it is 3rd rail and some normal things are out of scale but length and over shape is extremely key. A plus would be if it comes with the optional front coupler.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

What's your point?  That if you spend four or five times the money, you get a better model?  I think we kinda' understand that concept.

Now now, John, you know as well as I do that the Sunset/3rd Rail brass models of the SP GS class "Daylight" steam locomotives are NOT "four or five times the price" of a new MTH SP GS-4.

https://ogrforum.com/...2#157829273744121822

Because as a teenager. I flew across county to show sheep at the Oregon State Fair. And while I was there, I unexpectedly found my favorite loco. It was my favorite for its looks before I even stumbled upon it. I even have a photo somewhere of me standing in front of the driver wheel.

And I want a Madison car because I have been in a couple restored Madison cars. I just fell in love with the ornate detail that was put in something back then.

The MTH GS4 is full scale. Obviously the wheels are not but then the 3rd Rail 3 rail engine doesn’t have scale wheels either. Detail is finer on the 3rd Rail engine but the MTH engine is respectable and passes the three foot rule.
Emily, this is a 3rd Rail GS4.

Here is a Lionel 18" heavyweight diner. SP Had a couple similar to this.

Pete

https://ogrforum.com/...2#157829273744363202

I can't even find this loco on their site. Besides, I make $400 every 2 weeks. I don't want to spend more then $500 on a loco. That is why I am shopping on eBay.

I don't need extreme detailing. Just some that looks scale and passes with a B grade. I don't need an A+. RailKing locos are a D at best. So that is why I am still looking.

I used to own both of these beauties. I sold the Rail King version off after getting a great deal on this PS3 version. I was astounded by the difference in size and detailing between the two. To be honest the Rail King ran better on my layout as it was more forgiving on some less than perfect track laying.

Can't believe the photos were taken 2 years ago. The layout has certainly changed a lot since then.

https://ogrforum.com/...2#157829273745033262

That is EXACTLY what I mean. Just look at that crap from RailKing. It is shorter in all aspects.

Did your ps3 come with a couple to double head? I see it has an actual scale coupler on it but O gauge uses an oversized coupler.

I don't think RailKing is crap, smaller than 1:48 scale, True, not as detailed as the Premier line, True, not marketed as full true scale and highly detailed, True. It may not be for everyone but far from "Crap" as you put it. . .

Emily, I do not recall if it has the larger coupler. I would never double head this engine so it never occurred to me to look.

I understand your perspective on the size differences and level of detailing. But even this Premier 3 rail (high rail) engine has some flangeless wheels so it can take 72 in diameter curves. If you went with scale wheels you would need a much larger curve diameter because all the wheels for 2/3 rail scale will have flanges. If you take into account the larger coupler, that certainly is not scale, compromises have to be made.  On the other hand the scale couplers have a curved metal bar which to me looks totally out of place and not scale. So which to choose? 

As with everything, we are able to participate in the hobby at different levels depending on our financial resources and available layout space. The Rail King was in fact a nice engine for its intended market. Coupled with a set of Rail King passenger cars it looked very nice running. The Premier line is directed at people who have the space, money and interest to play with more detailed models.   

The engine model in your post is for a PS2 engine, check out the difference with 20-3484-1. wheels are painted, restraining chains on the tender trucks etc.  All for just under $1100 MSRP.   

I happened to get very lucky picking up this 20-3751-1 for $535 in 2019.  Everything MTH Premier has jumped in price in the last year or so, to the point old stuff is approaching new prices, sometimes selling for more.  If you want the PS3 engines I think you will need to raise your purchase budget.

Lastly don't compromise on picking up something at a lower price which you will be ultimately unhappy. Better to wait and save for something which will make you happy and be pleased with long term. Good luck finding the right engine for you.

I would have to concur with Conrailfan above - RK is far from crap. The mechanics in a RK steamer and the same Premier model any given year are almost identical for the most part - same motors and PS 2/3 components and features. They serve different markets and segments of the hobby. Personally I own and operate only full scale models by MTH, Lionel, Atlas, & K-Line. They are all 3 rail however and have some deviate aspects to accommodate the middle rail.

Had MTH not come along when they did and offer the Rail King line, Lionel would probably still be cranking out the same old pieces from the post war and MPC eras. Mike Wolfe kicked their butts into the 21st century!

Crap by my standards doesn't mean crap by others. It is just crap to me.

Would I like a totally detailed loco, yes. But I don't need it. What was that about a 3' rule. I just want something pleasing to the eye. And RailKing can never do that.

I understand that they use the same electronics and features but it still to me, partly looks like a turd rolling down the track. If I could findswitching engines on eBay for the $150 range, that are scale. I would buy them but I unfortunately had to buy RailKing for them.

I am not opposed to RailKing. I just don't want low detail on special engines/locos.

ScoutingDad, I don't mind the blind drivers or the oversized coupler. It is the overall body shape that bothers me. RailKing total messed up the front end and I don't like how they shrank the total size. I don't run O27 engines/locos (except for the switchers for the above reason).

As for the lower price comment. I just bought a Lionel UP Trackmobile for $100. After I bought it, I found out that the gear inside was bad. I almost totally disassembled the engine to get to the bad gear. I am not afraid to fix something. I talked to the seller the next day and he is supposed to ship me the new parts. I broke a wire to the capacitor and I got it soldered back on. No big deal.

The unpleasant front end you refer to has its roots in Lionel’s first “GS-4 Daylight” offered in 1983, and it was sized same as later RailKing. To avoid the expense of new tooling for a more accurate Daylight pilot, they reused their boiler/cab mold for the N&W-J 611 which they had introduced decades earlier. That is more a J pilot.  MTH would replicate Lionel's 1983 body for its RailKing version in the later 90's

I ran mine hard at the club for five years, all the while putting up with the non GS-4 look. My first scale sized GS-4 was the Williams brass version of 1989. Now that was one sweet runner.

I got a RK 4-8-4 some time back for a low price...wish I had saved the $$$ and waited for a Premier model to show.  When sitting beside a full scale model I can definitely see the difference.

They ought to call them "Compacts"!!!

Detail, schmeetail...what you really need is the MTH "Bantam" version:

@SIRT posted:

Williams and Lionel Madison cars are compressed semi-scale.

I beg to differ on Williams.  80' Madisons were offered by Williams in 1990, however there were only four roads and SP wasn't one of them.

For more details follow this link:

   Williams Crown Edition Full Length Scale Madison Sets | Bill DeBrooke

I just bought one of these sets off the big "E" and they are indeed 80 scale feet long.  Very, very nice detail as well.

Mike

https://ogrforum.com/...8#157829273750617468

The brass version you speak of (I do believe) is the 5600 Williams I am looking for. If that isn't the right number. Then I need to find the right one. Because the brass version is the Williams I am looking for.

This isn't the first time I've heard it was a remade J. My belief is simple. "If you are going to do it. Then do it right the first time."

https://ogrforum.com/...7#157829273759039607

This is EXACTLY my point.

https://ogrforum.com/...7#157829273759059157

This might be close but that photo isn't enough to tell. If only I had the MTH numbers.

https://ogrforum.com/...9#157829273760744339

I will take a photo of my observation car with a tape next to it. They look full length, if not dam close.

@Emily Shelton posted:

https://ogrforum.com/...8#157829273750617468

The brass version you speak of (I do believe) is the 5600 Williams I am looking for. If that isn't the right number. Then I need to find the right one. Because the brass version is the Williams I am looking for.

This isn't the first time I've heard it was a remade J. My belief is simple. "If you are going to do it. Then do it right the first time."

Good philosophy. The brass Williams should be identifiable by the scale tender same design as the prototype. The diecast Williams has a PRR style tender behind it. You should be able to find a brass Williams in your price range. A PS2/3 MTH will likely be much higher. Online prices are over the top now but if you are in an area where there are local shows you will find prices much more reasonable. Also try the wanted to buy forum here. A couple of club members have Williams brass GS-4s and they are good, smooth, strong runners. Good luck in your quest.

Pete

@Emily Shelton posted:

https://ogrforum.com/...0#157829273742601300

What is the Sunset/3rd rail model? Is Sunset a brand? I believe one streamline cars are articulated. I only run heavyweight cars for passenger service.

Sunset Models Limited is the master company that is sold under the brand name of 3rd Rail.  You can find them at www.3rdrail.com.  The company also offers scale passenger cars under the brand name of Golden Gate Depot.  The company has been in business for over 47 years and started producing imported brass locomotives and cars for the two rail market.  3 rail models started being offered in the late 1990's. 

Currently the company is still a small operation and offers the highest quality 3 rail items available on the market.  Yes, they come at a bit of a premium but for a discriminating modeler they offer an alternative to the mass produced MTH / Lionel items that tend to dominate the 3 rail market. 

While not currently in production, Golden Gate Depot offered wonderfully detailed plastic 20" scale length heavyweight cars with coaches based on the PRR P70 prototype in both the 1930's appearance with ice-air conditioning and the slightly later modernized appearance with the balloon roof and larger windows.  They also offered a baggage, baggage mail, RPO, diner, 8-1-2 Pullman Standard Sleepers, 12-1 Pullman Standard Sleepers, and a Pullman Standard 80' observation.  They can be found on the secondary market at times.  These cars were offered in two-tone grey Southern Pacific and as I recall, at a minimum the coaches were offered in SP Daylight.

GGD also offered the Harriman cars in SP, but I'm trying to remember if they were done in the Daylight scheme.  I should know as I did the graphic master drawings for them!   It's been a few years.   

To the locomotive, the MTH model in Proto-2 or Proto-3 is a good model.  Lionel's various more recent offerings are well done as well.  The 3rd Rail one is a better detailed model and more accurate overall.  The Williams model is a good entry level scale locomotive.  I have a Williams that is a stellar runner.  No frills, no command, and a little lacking on detail, but overall a nice scale locomotive.  I paid somewhere around $350.00 for mine.

The short answer after my book is that you have a lot of options for the SP GS4 and probably can't go wrong on most of them since you are willing to do the work to upgrade the electronics.

https://ogrforum.com/...5#157829273763188955

I don't think I am doing these quotes right. Mine just keeps giving links.

The price is a huge reason why I am looking for the brass model. Plus it has the proper equipment and my cars are Williams anyway. So why not complete the set. But it will have DCS in it. I have a board from a parted out SW1. If I have to, I can retrofit that board but I would prefer a steam board.

https://ogrforum.com/...5#157829273763555435

I am only a mostly discriminating modeler. So I won't be spending huge money that I don't have on detail. I do have OCD but I can for a most part rein it back.

And as for your last part of the message. Because I am of the technical mind. I am not at all focusing on electronics. I need a good base to sculpt my masterpiece. The mold needs to be correct before anything else and I am definitely leaning towards the brass Williams or a ps2-3 MTH.

I personally can't stand Lionel but I will use them if there is no other options. Like my UP Trackmobile, since Lionel is the only one that makes a digital one.

This is a bit off topic but is there anyone here that belongs to the club in AZ across the street from Maricopa Live Steamers?

I am a member of the Paradise and Pacific club in Scottsdale at the railroad park and TCA Desert Division which currently meets in North Phoenix.

The Paradise and Pacific is a great club to be a member of and we have a 32'x40' layout.  It is the only reason I still model some in 3 rail as all my "serious" modeling has transitioned to 2 rail.  I am not as familiar with the clubs out on the westside near the Maricopa Live Steamers.  I am sure there are some members of this forum that know a lot more about the clubs out that way than I do.

https://ogrforum.com/...8#157829273768280058

There is a second live steamers club in the Phoenix area?! I was living over by Union Hills and Cave Creek. And I had to take a bicycle to get to my live steam club there. Your club would have been closer. What gauge are you?

Your club wouldn't show up until I zoomed in close on Scottsdale. That is why I went all the way over there. I love the steam club but the model club stole over $1,000 of tools from me when I became homeless. Sid still has my TIU and refuses to answer my calls or respond.