Is there really a difference between the MTH 4000 and Lionel ZW-L for quality power?

Wow..hoping this gets sorted out for you.i will be following this post.

The only issue I can think of with the 4000 is that the max voltage is higher than what Lionel recommends Legacy to be run at. Try to limit the voltage to Legacy engines to 18V.

The difference in AC waves should not destroy electronics. You simply would not get as much smoke output with a smooth sine vs. a chopped wave (or as Lionel claims).

To have that many boards go bad I would start to suspect another underlying issue in your wiring or layout. Without being able to look I couldn't pinpoint it though.

Hope you get this figured out. RCMCs are not cheap.

That's a good point about maximum voltage.  Whatever transformer you are using, if you have a volt-ohm meter, I'd check the voltage at track level.  If you don't have a volt-ohm meter, I'd get one.  Perfectly decent ones are available for $20 or less.  I'd go further and say for the time being try keeping the maximum voltage to 16 volts (measured at the track), which is more than enough to run any command locomotive, and likely is less risk than running at maximum, for certain.

Possible use of TVS diodes would be recommended.  

On my MTH DCS control system I have installed TVS diodes at every individual track feed to my track.  In addition I install a TVS diode at every output of all my MTH DCS TIUs. Also possible is the addition of TVS diodes on the track pickups of every scale engine.

In addition I have also installed a TVS diode at every output on my 2 MTH Z-4000 transformers.

Note: According to manufacturer data it is possible that transients due to "power line" fluctuations and lightning strikes could be damaging to electronics. On my computer system I have installed a "battery backup" system that regulates and provides transient protection. A sudden loss of 120vac line power sometimes results in large transients.

Note: Check with your local power company about recommended protection equipment for the power coming into your house.

These measures could prevent costly damage to expensive model railroad engines.

That's a lot of new engines to have problems with! See if the newer ZW-L transformer helps, but I am not sure that it will help that much. Sounds more like defective circuit boards like what Bachmann/Williams had a few years back. Most of the circuit boards are made in China, so I suspect the circuit board.

Lee Fritz

phillyreading posted:

That's a lot of new engines to have problems with! See if the newer ZW-L transformer helps, but I am not sure that it will help that much. Sounds more like defective circuit boards like what Bachmann/Williams had a few years back. Most of the circuit boards are made in China, so I suspect the circuit board.

Lee Fritz

I think there is something else at work here.  John, do you have a lot of derailments/shorts?  Probably not, but this is where TVSs would help.

While I don't run my Legacy engines that much, I have had no failures.  I use PH180 bricks so only 18/19V is going to the track.  I would hope using only 18V max and adding TVS diodes would help.

We use two MTH Z-4000s on my club's layout and I run my home layout with one Z-4000.  I am not having the issues that you mentioned with any of my Lionel engines or with any of the other club's members Lionel engines.  None of our lines have TVS diodes installed.  The club runs many different Lionel engines.

We routinely run the club's and my home layout at the Z-4000's maximum output which is about 24 volts.  We find, especially in a club environment with multiple engines operating at the same time, that this is necessary to provide each engine with enough power.  

I doubt that you are so unlucky with your purchases that all of your various engine circuit boards are bad when you get them. Do you test them at the hobby shop before taking them home?  

I would look at your wiring including wire size, etc.  I can't imagine what is going on but you may have an issue that is unrelated to either your engines or your transformer.   (I assume that you have changed transformers and tested your operations that way.)

NH Joe

Thank you to all who have offered suggestions. 

1. I never run the power beyond 18 volts, but always at 18 volts.  The voltage drops when I run my Big Boy and another engine or two. The 21' by 12.5 ' layout is not large, has minimum O-72 curve Atlas Century track, and a 7' by  8' extension for my Millhouse/Studio Z 34" Turntable that is not yet incorporated into the layout.  The layout is a double mainline with  bridge crossings over the river that slices through the layout.  

2. Power runs to the track through Atlas O Terminal Joiners placed every 20 inches and on either side of switches: four Double Slip, four #5, and twenty-two O-72. 

3. The Atlas O Terminal Joiners run to approximately thirty MTH 1014 Blocks (No wire runs more than 36 inches) that are then wired in a daisy chain with 16-gauge wire with closed circle connectors that fit on the MTH 1014 Posts. The crimped wire connectors have been lightly soldered and shielded with the plastic sleeve that is on the circle connector.  

4. There are currently insulated rails with looped Terminal Joiner wires waiting for Atlas Signals to be installed.  The Signal power comes from a separate handle on the ZW-L Transformer, sharing the common ground.  

5. The track is regularly cleaned with flatcar wipers that have removable pads.  I run them at the head of my freight trains. Lionel has suggested using Goo Gone Cleaner on the track.  It is a citrus based cleaner.  My track is clean. 

6.  I have only had two engines derail.  The latest is my first of two NYC ESE J3a #5426 that just returned from Lionel and has a bent front pilot wheel and axle that will not turn freely. The right wheel plows into my #5 switches and climbs off the track, shorting out the ZW-L.  It is being re-returned again after having a board previously replaced. 

7. There are no visible sparks at night when I run the layout in the dark.  The only sparking has come from the rear trucks of two of my four new sound station diners that trip the ZW-L breaker.  A few new 21" passenger cars are being returned for sparking trucks.  

That's enough for now.  I am getting tired typing and talking about this great retirement/bucket-list layout disappointment.  My "Valley of Bridges" layout has become the Valley of Death for so many of my new Lionel engines.  Thank you for your help.

Sincerely,

John Rowlen

I wish I could test my Lionel engines at a hobby shop/train store, but several have closed and the remaining stores don't handle expensive Vision Line or Legacy engines. They are not even interested in taking deposits.  The last two engines I bought in Cleveland, my 1st NYC ESE J3a is going back to Lionel a second time for a bent pilot axle.  The new Nickle Plate Berkshire arrived at the Cleveland dealer with broken plastic Journals for the rear engine trucks. They had to wait for parts to fix it before they could sell the $1500 engine to me.  I have had to purchase out of state: all of them claiming to be top ten Lionel dealers.  Most of my engines worked the first day or hour.  It is the second day or hour that they break.  I believe many TCA collectors should try running their engines again to see if they still work. Collectors only need to see it run once, then they put it on a shelf.  I actually run my trains.  My bad.  Please forgive me.

It seems unlikely that your layout geometry/wiring is at fault, or that so many locomotives would fail.  I would keep the voltage at 16 V or below to be sure, but this isn't the answer either in all likelihood, unless the voltage is much higher and the measurement is off.   I think a possible answer is that you are having local voltage surges in your electrical supply from either your utility or weather.  Are you using some sort of surge suppressor on the power line to the Z-4000 and ZW-L?  Probably worth doing if not, as these are cheap insurance.  Next step would be the transient voltage suppressors mentioned above on all track feeds from the transformers.  Also cheap and simple.

I deleted my snarly remark about the $750 trans,I'm sure its a good product and it looks like you done everything electrically by the textbook on your layout.....I'm onboard with the idea of surges and/or power spikes in your house current as some have posted earlier... its really a great hobby we have here,I'm sad to see you have problems like this..

Jim,  Your remark was not snarly. It was right on the money. About $750.00 worth.  I really appreciate every bit of advice I can get. I am trying to show what I have done electrically on the layout so valuable advice can flow to me and to Lionel so they can help all of us.  I realize I am not alone because Lionel has closed its NC Service Center to all non-warranty repairs.  I feel bad for the service women who attempt to help me over the phone.  I bought a Vision Line Challenger on Ebay that the seller kindly paid to have shipped to Maine for two boards to be repaired/replaced. I am going to run it tonight (cancel that idea-- I will get a battery back-up computer filtering device for the ZW-L first)  because my third Lionel 990 Remote just arrived today.  The 1st and 2nd are going back again after having 1.6 software installed.  Nothing happens with the 1st and the 2nd is doing the same thing as when I sent it the first time.  I stop the engine, then the remote vibrates and the engine creeps forward. I came downstairs from answering the phone and my engine and cars were on the other side of the room.  ....  God has given me a good life. The devil has given me toy trains.  Thank you for your help. Sincerely, John Rowlen

John Rowlen posted:

because my third Lionel 990 Remote just arrived today.  The 1st and 2nd are going back again after having 1.6 software installed.  Nothing happens with the 1st and the 2nd is doing the same thing as when I sent it the first time.  I stop the engine, then the remote vibrates and the engine creeps forward. I came downstairs from answering the phone and my engine and cars were on the other side of the room.

If you've cooked two Legacy remotes as well then I would DEFINITELY say there is some sort of electrical issue going on. I would get things unplugged and make sure you get the surge protectors etc in place. But you have got a major electrical issue somewhere in the layout or possibly the house wiring.

Something that was missing from the rundown of your wiring description was the use of TVS diodes.  These will clamp any high spikes of voltage that may flow through the track and can cause problems with modern electronics.  the common wisdom seems to be to use a TVS where each feeder connects to the track, though it sounds like you have more than the average number of feeders.  Still at 20 to 50 cents each it is cheap insurance.  

On the transformers, there is going to be little practical difference between the Z4K and ZW-L for running convention except that engines will actually smoke better with the ZW-L.  It wasn't mentioned, but I do see a Legacy base in one of the layout pictures, so in a command environment, the two transformers will work pretty much the same.  The price tag of the ZW-L actually isn't bad if you are making use of all it provides.  (almost  equal power as 4 powerhouse bricks, and conventional control through Legacy equal to having 4 legacy powermasters. )  

I would be concerned that it is possible the voltage readout of the z4k may be off and supplying more than the 19vac many lionel products list as a max voltage, and would check with a reasonably good quality True RMS meter.  

JGL

The electric company just installed a new digital meter on my house a month ago.  We had not had any problems with the computers, though the lights sometimes seem like they are not as bright. Our electric utility does not do preventative maintenance. Things have to blow up first. There is a transformer on the pole at the end of my driveway.  Maybe it is going bad.  I will have to wait until sparks or catches on fire, or blows up, before the utility will do anything. I will call and see if they will inspect it. 

 ( I had constant battle with the electric company that served my printing company in North Royalton twenty years ago. I bought a $3,000.00 UPS battery backup for my $65,000.00 Compugraphic Typesetter.  I was replacing $500 boards a couple times a year.  My attorney stated it could take 10 years and more money than I had spent to get the utility to pay the bills with no guarantee that I would win.  Other computerized business I printed for moved out of the area  because their expensive and more sensitive battery back systems would trip and take 30 minutes for all computer software to reload, just to trip again.)

I will call the electric company.

You have fried 12 engines, some multiple times, and 2 Cab2s?  Yikes!  That has to be some kind of record.  You seem pretty calm about it.  That would drive me nuts.  Just the waste of money involved.  I sure hope you get it fixed and can enjoy something out of this.  Best of luck.

The second Legacy 990 Remote did not work correctly right out of the box. The engines always would start up after being turned down and then crawl forward.  The first failed mechanically as the red knob would not accelerate the engines. I could use the speed step buttons to start the engines and turn the red knob down to slow and stop them, but not up to start them.  I believe these are mechanical issues, not electrical. But I may be wrong. The Service call line thinks that the first may now have a damaged communications ribbon inside because they are very fragile.  

William 1,

I wish I had stayed calm.  I did start swearing at the Lionel Service Manager over the phone. That was not one of my finest moments.  At least he has an understanding of my level of concern.  We are talking over six figures invested in the "Valley of Bridges" layout.  Sometime two people who beat each other up, later become the best of friends.  I don't like my situation.  But I also would not want his situation.

Who knows what the Chinese worker is thinking as they build these engines after hearing the Chinese newspapers say that war with the United States is coming. Do they feel the love?  (July 5, 2016) (Restated to John Kerry later in the week by Chinese officials over the South China Seas Decision by the Hague Court giving disputed islands to the Philippines.)  I hope this statement isn't off-topic, but it does indicate that workers could be distracted and the reason for my pinched engine and passenger car wires.

i didnt think about it until i saw " north royalton" in your last post and i viewed your profile.....we're just about neighbors .....ive heard alot of not-so-good things about ohio edison and cei when i worked in construction.....

Jim.  I am 1 mile from Chevy Blvd. and the UAW Hall where TCA holds their meets.  Maybe its time for me to apply to TCA.  My father was a member and truly enjoyed the meets.  I was out of town teaching and never joined. My father and I spent many hours working on the Super-O layout when I was in high school.  It had to be removed when we put glass block windows in our basement. 

I too have heard not-so-good things about the electric companies, mostly from their own workers who installed 24-hour graphs of my power at my print shop at State & 82 in North Royalton. The most talented workers were retiring, leaving a void that was hard to fill.  ...   I had a small LGB G-gauge layout outside my shop every Christmas. There were candy canes on the white and red lattice fence around the layout for the kids, and adults too.  Sincerely, John Rowlen

hi you know you can complain to the electric utility and have them install a monitor on your power at the house which will record and monitor the power fluctionations your having and would then prove your having a problem and they need to fix it! I retired from a nuclear power plant and I know how things work. I would complain and request a monitor on your electric power ASAP!

good luck and let us know how you make out!

Alan

repair technician posted:

hi you know you can complain to the electric utility and have them install a monitor on your power at the house which will record and monitor the power fluctionations your having and would then prove your having a problem and they need to fix it! I retired from a nuclear power plant and I know how things work. I would complain and request a monitor on your electric power ASAP!

good luck and let us know how you make out!

Alan

Alan...He has a smart meter they know what he is cooking for supper.John a lot of guys here including myself are from Cleveland maybe have a couple of us over you never know two eyes are better than one.E mail in profile.Nick