Known Zinc Pest Issues

Early Atlas 54' express reefers and some early K-Line heavyweight passenger trucks.  May as well mention the fire hazard associated with those early cars.  John in Lansing, ILL

There's definitely a problem with some Atlas O 50' box car die-cast floors warping.

 Atlas 55 ton Hoppers from the 2005 run. I've got a couple that are perfect. But have a number of them that needed repairs. If your lucky. Just the truck mount brakes off. One of mine the entire frame just crumbled. Swapping out the chassis isn't an option given the way they are assembled.

 You can repair them. They will ride just slightly higher. Start by carefully drilling out the chassis to accept a 3mm blind nut with the prongs cut off. JB Weld it in place.

 While your at the hardware store. Pickup some roll pins that fit snug over the 3mm screw you buy. The right size should also slip inside the Atlas truck. I sanded them down and kept fitting it so that when you tighten the screw. The truck can still pivot. Your basically making a shouldered screw.

Bachmann trolley gear boxes have zinc pest.

I've encountered MTH Railking F-3 frames that have warped.  The examples I've seen were from around 2004.  Don't know how widespread the problem is.

More to add to the list:

Tender shell from the MTH RailKing Pennsy torpedo.

 MTH Premier heavyweight passenger cars - the first ones to get the upgraded diaphragms. The factory changed the truck side frames from one piece to nine piece spring loaded. The thin side frame castings crumble.

rattler21 posted:

Some early K-Line heavyweight passenger trucks.  May as well mention the fire hazard associated with those early cars.  John in Lansing, ILL

Please explain the fire hazard. I have seen MTH Premier super domes burst into flames and smoke, but not K-Line.

RoyBoy,

 MTH full domes bursting into flames? Not heard of this one.  Any further info on this?

MTH premier p5a boxcabs. I have been on a list at MTH for replacement for about 2 years. MTH has promised to replace these shells for customers when they do a new run of this model. MTH, if you are reading this...……………...I am hoping you will make good on your promise.  

rattler21 posted:

Early Atlas 54' express reefers and some early K-Line heavyweight passenger trucks.  May as well mention the fire hazard associated with those early cars.  John in Lansing, ILL

Thank so much for posting those instructions - think I have a set that needs the modification.

I had a first run premier Erie triplex that had zinc rot attacking the top of of the boiler and a few spots that where bubbling. It was getting ugly before I sold it.

Dave

Postwar Lionel FM Trainmasters:

Swelling and cracking of power truck castings leading to an increase in the distance between axles, and subsequent inability of gears to mesh.

Warping, swelling and cracking of battery holder casting on underside of stamped frame.

I don't have the Atlas O Item # for these 40 foot boxcars, as some OGR forum member sold them to me without the boxes and "chose not to mention" that zinc pest rot had destroyed the ladders, grab irons, stirrups and all the wheel trucks.... thanks !!!  I am pretty sure he knew what was going on as when the box arrived, all the disintegrating detail parts were floating around in the bottom of the box.... 

These were the WM 40 foot, XAR double door boxcars....  I ended up finding some replacement ladders, maybe Weaver, and then weathered them as I wasn't going to resell these "problem children" to some other person...   Managed to save two of the four trucks with some metal parts and JB Weld.  what a mess....

Dave C:  that's a pretty neat idea using  JB Weld to epoxy in the the blind "T" nut and the "shoulder screw" to make a threaded mount for the truck.    

The Williams/Bachmann Peter Witt trolleys have serious zinc rot problems in the trucks. 

I had an MTH Railking GG1 with PS3 (total POS) that started showing cracks in the shell. With a laundry list of other issues, I sold it for parts and bought a Williams. 

I've had zinc rot issues with some coupler knuckles on my Lionel I-12 cabeese. I also had the same problem recently on my Atlas"O" (first-run) F2/3 "B" unit's coupler knuckle which disintegrated when I coupled a train to it.

chris a posted:

I don't have the Atlas O Item # for these 40 foot boxcars, as some OGR forum member sold them to me without the boxes and "chose not to mention" that zinc pest rot had destroyed the ladders, grab irons, stirrups and all the wheel trucks.... thanks !!!  I am pretty sure he knew what was going on as when the box arrived, all the disintegrating detail parts were floating around in the bottom of the box.... 

These were the WM 40 foot, XAR double door boxcars....  I ended up finding some replacement ladders, maybe Weaver, and then weathered them as I wasn't going to resell these "problem children" to some other person...   Managed to save two of the four trucks with some metal parts and JB Weld.  what a mess....

Dave C:  that's a pretty neat idea using  JB Weld to epoxy in the the blind "T" nut and the "shoulder screw" to make a threaded mount for the truck.    

I had the GN, C&O,  and GM&O DD Boxcars all with the same problems.  I think they were all from the first series....2004. 

I wish Atlas would rerun these and a few others.

I have nothing to add, except to suggest that O.P. add the term "zinc pest" to his post. It will make this thread more easily found by future searchers, since the malady is often called by that name.

Hump Yard Mike posted:

I just saw on the for sale forum a Lionel up auxiliary water tender where the entire body is warped, I was suprised.  Wonder if this thread might be a running list of modern items that have had known issues with zinc rot.

I am aware of:

-JLC GG1 side frames

-MTH BNSF coal porter trucks from the late 90’s

-weaver troop sleepers floors

-Lionel sf scout heavy weight passenger trucks

-MTH amfleet Amtrak premier trucks from the late 90’s

MTH Commodore Vanderbilt PS-1 era drivers (Early 1990'S).  You have to replace the entire chassis with the gear train and drivers.  The cost (less than $100) is NOT the worst issue.  What is, is that the direct replacement part number is not available from MTH parts- although some later MTH Hudsons or other MTH 4-6-4 chassis will work.

I have no personal experience with this particular case, but I have read some warnings that many of the Lionel 6-18010 PRR turbines have zinc rot problems.  Don't know if it's true or not.

Until I read this thread, I was unaware of just how prevalent this serious problem still is.  Yes, I know -- the stuff is made in China, where they either don't know or don't care.  Or both.  But it appears that until a lot more loud voices are raised to the American importers, they are just going to continue accepting this shoddy, self-destructing alloy and passing it on to us.

This post needs a spread sheet listing all of the reported Zinc Pest items, their brand name, their part number and location of concern. So far, I have not had any noticeable Zinc Pest issues, but I buy used locomotives and it would be nice to know those to avoid.

I too have experienced this problem having had some KLine GG1 power truck frames disintegrate. Having spent over 46 years working in the import business, I've seen examples of bad metallurgy in a number of products from China (as well as Pakistan and India) including brake rotors, automobile water pumps, and assorted tools. What amazes me is that most of you will probably eat food on a regular basis that has been prepared on cookware (often non-stick coated) from these same countries!! As a serious amateur cook, i'm still using domestically made very old cast iron skillets, 50+ year old Revere Ware, and newer products from American Kitchen.

Lionel Cascade Logging set dockside switcher rear coupler desinergrates.  I had two of these just fall apart.  Lionel had a good replacement part though.

My Atlas O PFE Express Reefers all have crumbling bolsters. 

The K-Line HW passenger cars was the biggest issue I ever had with the issue. I was lucky K-Line was still up and running and sent me new trucks if I did the labor. 

Lionel 6-38076 C&O  and 6-38077 Virginian scale Berkshires boilers are beginning to show signs of zinc rot too. 

Are the MTH affected products China or Korea?

GregR posted:

Postwar Lionel FM Trainmasters:

Swelling and cracking of power truck castings leading to an increase in the distance between axles, and subsequent inability of gears to mesh.

Warping, swelling and cracking of battery holder casting on underside of stamped frame.

GregR,

          How widespread is this problem?  I've been buying and running Lionel's post-war Trainmasters for almost 45 years and this is the first time I've heard of zinc pest problems on them.  Hairline cracks around the screw holes on the shells yes but not zinc rot.  Is this a personal experience or someone else's problem?   I would really like to know. 

@M J Breen woah, not the Odyssey berks too!  Can you please post a couple pics showing the extent of it?

VistaDomeScott posted:

RoyBoy,

 MTH full domes bursting into flames? Not heard of this one.  Any further info on this?

It happened several years ago. Might have been a pinched wire, but unfortunately, I do not remember.

Lionel 6-38081 Allegheny steam pipes and tender doors (replaced doors already, had to buy the whole tender to get them).  

Lionel PS1 box cars with the die cast frames. Don’t know the years but I have a Rutland and saw an MKT for sale here on the forum with the tell tale cracks. The brake components are brass but the frames are die cast and crumbling! Also, trucks on Lionel Heavyweight NYC cars from about eight years ago doing the same.

The Lionel 1988 issue of the Hiawatha - both the engine shell and the diecast car body underframes.  There was an "early" phase of reporting problems about 10 years after they came out and there have been more recent reports of the same problems showing up later.  

JINI5.  I am also on that same list and also hopes MTH stands behind that commitment. A lot of money for that P5a if they don’t. I want to put one of John’s BCR’s init but afraid to take it apart for fear of what might happen when I do. So for now it is a shelf ornament. 

OK, why just make things without zinc?

RJT posted:

JINI5.  I am also on that same list and also hopes MTH stands behind that commitment. A lot of money for that P5a if they don’t. I want to put one of John’s BCR’s init but afraid to take it apart for fear of what might happen when I do. So for now it is a shelf ornament. 

Thanks JINI5 for posting. Mine has it as well. 

As much as we collectively spend in this hobby, we should expect better in terms of quality.  Märklin faced similar issues in the last 10 - 15 years or so, mainly with products also made in Asia.  I’ve been fortunate that none of my older [German] Märklin, [US] Lionel, or even early [South Korean] MTH and pre-Bachmann [China] Williams items have been effected... yet.  (I continue to keep a close eye on things.)  

It really does come down to quality control, something that’s pretty tough to do when the “home office” is thousands of miles away.  Then again, we do live in a throw away society, where planned obsolescence or “creative destruction” is a given.  I’ll continue to purchase those older, “obsolete” items without the modern electronics for a lot less than the newer ones... and hope for the best.

dkdkrd posted:

I'm sure the list is going to suggest that, if the product sez "Made in China" on the item or the box, and the item had one or more zinc alloy castings in its construction, it's either suspect or already victimized.  It's not confined to a particular manufacturer, a particular production run of an item, a particular time period, etc., etc..  Which is why, after all these 'made-in-China' years of overseas production using zinc alloy castings, the best advice would be to periodically inspect your inventory....thoroughly.  

Which leads to the next suggestion: Why wouldn't we also include a possible or proven corrective action for every instance of zinc pest?  To know you have the problem...or inventory item(s) that might have the problem...is hard enough on the ol' ticker.  To know that there's a (possible) solution would be a valuable benefit to the whole exercise.....IMHO, of course.

KD the point of having a list is that it's NOT a widespread problem, and it's not specific to any one country or manufacturer.  Only a  FEW models from each manufacturer are affected.  But when a model is known to be affected, it's likely that others of that batch are also affected.  The point is to make folks aware of the problem pieces so they can make an informed purchase decision.  There is no "cure," except replacing the defective castings with good ones.  The list will show OEM's (and possibly individuals with 3D printing capabilities, etc.) where there may be a need for another production run, or a market for replacement parts.  

It also raises awareness of the issue, which might encourage the OEMs and foreign contractors to improve their quality control and metallurgy.  I agree that it should be in a spreadsheet.  To prevent panic and misinformation, the spreadsheet should contain hyperlinks to photographic evidence supplied by at least two or three contributors.

I agree that they should not have this problem at all, it is simply not right.  But the reality is that the importers are totally at the mercy of the Asian manufacturing, and (in the case of China) the Communist government.  This is because the model train market is not big enough and the importers are not big enough businesses to support on-site QC in a country half a World away. 

Solutions:

1. Many of us want more modern product, but zinc rot seems to be widespread, though only in certain "runs" of certain (generally Asian) manufactured products- but NOT only one importer (Lionel, K Line, MTH, etc.)   So, we cannot just say: "don't buy ABC locomotives".   A list, kept up to date, on this forum or another location will help those of us who buy "pre-owned" stuff.  
Such a list is a double-edged sword:  When you already own a product that is prone to this issue, AND the list is available- your locomotive or car is lowered in value or unsalable. Many of us will NOT like that.  But- how can the "buyer beware" UNLESS the information is public??

2. Another major issue is- the availability of replacement PARTS.   Body cracking, add-on details that crack, etc. do not make the locomotive or car unusable, and/or can be repaired given some skill.   But when the WHEELS/DRIVERS crack (like mine did), then the entire product becomes a wall decoration.  If you could easily buy a new chassis that does NOT get the zinc rot, even at $75- $100, your investment would be saved.  Fortunately, in my case the manufacturer stepped in and sent a replacement (MTH - thanks Mike!). 

But there are cases where NOBODY has the part, not even the importer, because (I understand) that today even they do not have easy access to parts- rumor is that they have to pirate parts off of extra product ordered from each run.  This because the Chinese are so worried that an American importer might buy parts then assemble them in the USA or elsewhere.  (If I am wrong on this- then somebody who really KNOWS, just say so- and I will modify this post.)

3.  Made in USA- would allow local QC. But a HUGE investment- since (again) the Chinese government controls the tooling.  I understand that the tooling (hundreds of thousands of dollars) would be an investment that is just not possible- see above about market size and the size of the companies.

I wonder how many of the new trains we are buying right now will make it onto this list in the future?