I have had my share of issues. However do not misinterpret the zinc pest for paint issues. I have had bubbles and warping from a couple of different manufacturers. I have also seen misapplied paint that looks similar however the issue doesn't go down to the locomotive skin. I know my plastic shells aren't suffering from Zinc Rot and some of your die cast locomotives aren't either. If the surface is smooth and not warped below the paint; you have a paint issue not zinc rot.
Scott Smith
What causes “paint rash”, i.e., tiny specks/ bubbles that appear in the surface of painted die-cast models? Is it a paint or metal defect? I have a number of older (20 to 25 years old) Franklin Mint and Danbury Mint models that developed “paint rash” stored in the box in climate controlled storage.
With regard to quality control: Scott Mann of 3rd Rail makes regular trips to South Korea to inspect each item of a model run. If this relatively small outfit can do so, why can't Lionel or MTH do the same?
rex desilets posted:With regard to quality control: Scott Mann of 3rd Rail makes regular trips to South Korea to inspect each item of a model run. If this relatively small outfit can do so, why can't Lionel or MTH do the same?
I know that Mike Wolf spends a lot of time observing and inspecting in China the manufacturing process. You cannot tell if the raw zinc is contaminated by looking at it. It only take a small amount of lead to destroy a finished product over time.
Scott Smith
Randy_B posted:I wonder how many of the new trains we are buying right now will make it onto this list in the future?
Too many. 
D&H 65 posted:I've had zinc rot issues with some coupler knuckles on my Lionel I-12 cabeese. I also had the same problem recently on my Atlas"O" (first-run) F2/3 "B" unit's coupler knuckle which disintegrated when I coupled a train to it.
I’ve had the same problem with the couplers on an Atlas O SD35 from 2003 #6803-3 (B&O #7407). I was recently surprised when one of the electro-couplers seemed to not work. Upon closer inspection and trying the other end of the engine, they both had zinc rot and crumbled in front of my eyes. While I could have replaced these with new electro-couplers, I chose to convert this engine to Kadee’s to run with several freight cars previously converted to scale Kadee couplers. Looks far better and no zinc rot.
SIGH....
Only one of my 5 weaver troop cars appear ok - I DID NOT even attempt to remove this one
from the Styrofoam - think the only way it is coming out is by cutting away the Styrofoam.
from the box. I had one on my layout and when I removed the body from the floor - the
floor broke into three pieces...
The 6 wheel trucks on a K-Line heavyweight passenger car crumbled to pieces when I took it out of the box. I replaced them with Lionel heavyweight passenger trucks & so far, so good,
John23 posted:The 6 wheel trucks on a K-Line heavyweight passenger car crumbled to pieces when I took it out of the box. I replaced them with Lionel heavyweight passenger trucks & so far, so good,
Wait what? I bought someone's old K-Line Heavyweights just for the trucks, and come to find out can use Lionel? Is it a part number like the Weaver trucks, or more like a repair part number?
Michael T, This 3 Pak set of Lionel Penn Red Arrow cars (6-25635) had all six trucks crumble, including a diner. I replaced them with these trucks from Lionel. They may work for your K-Line cars. Good luck.
scott.smith posted:rex desilets posted:With regard to quality control: Scott Mann of 3rd Rail makes regular trips to South Korea to inspect each item of a model run. If this relatively small outfit can do so, why can't Lionel or MTH do the same?
I know that Mike Wolf spends a lot of time observing and inspecting in China the manufacturing process. You cannot tell if the raw zinc is contaminated by looking at it. It only take a small amount of lead to destroy a finished product over time.
Scott Smith
In a thread over on S Scale Groups.io, Brian Jackson made this comment: “Zinc pest is the result of impurities in the alloy. Usually, what happens is the casting company has trouble getting the cavities to fill, so it introduces lead into the alloy to get the die to work properly. The castings look great, until years later they disintegrate. The NADCA standards prohibit such practices.”
I don’t know how true it may be, but this would not surprise me, simply because it seems too common of an occurrence in too many different items for too many years now (as long as I can remember, and I’m almost 73!) for zinc pest to be just a random accidental contamination.
Bill in FtL
Bill Nielsen posted:scott.smith posted:rex desilets posted:With regard to quality control: Scott Mann of 3rd Rail makes regular trips to South Korea to inspect each item of a model run. If this relatively small outfit can do so, why can't Lionel or MTH do the same?
I know that Mike Wolf spends a lot of time observing and inspecting in China the manufacturing process. You cannot tell if the raw zinc is contaminated by looking at it. It only take a small amount of lead to destroy a finished product over time.
Scott Smith
In a thread over on S Scale Groups.io, Brian Jackson made this comment: “Zinc pest is the result of impurities in the alloy. Usually, what happens is the casting company has trouble getting the cavities to fill, so it introduces lead into the alloy to get the die to work properly. The castings look great, until years later they disintegrate. The NADCA standards prohibit such practices.”
I don’t know how true it may be, but this would not surprise me, simply because it seems too common of an occurrence in too many different items for too many years now (as long as I can remember, and I’m almost 73!) for zinc pest to be just a random accidental contamination.
Bill in FtL
No, not true. They do not mix lead with zinc to improve the casting process. Lead can come with the source ore, and there have been a few older technologies in which lead has been a part of the refining process prior to the casting process. In either case, there were steps in the respective refining process to remove lead... There are specified allowable limits for various zinc alloys... Lots of info out there if one cares to search and read. It is not really dark science or magic. If processes and checks are not adhered to this can happen does not matter if it is Lionel, MTH, Quisinart, or Chevy... and because of the actual process and time involved in the actual failure, it does not manifest its self until after the component has been on a shelf for a period of time. This is a metallurgy failure, not to be mixed in with casting process failures such as cold shots, poor flow and porosity, they are not necessarily related.
illinoiscentral posted:John23 posted:The 6 wheel trucks on a K-Line heavyweight passenger car crumbled to pieces when I took it out of the box. I replaced them with Lionel heavyweight passenger trucks & so far, so good,
Wait what? I bought someone's old K-Line Heavyweights just for the trucks, and come to find out can use Lionel? Is it a part number like the Weaver trucks, or more like a repair part number?
It's not a drop-in fit. I had to do some work on it. Can't remember exactly what, as it was awhile ago.
Lots of discussion. BUT... How about we ask for brass, tin, aluminum or steel castings and forget about diecast all together. With the thousands of items being made and the potential for thousands in the future, cost increase should be negligible. We keep hearing how new items are not produced using old parts. How everything is costly due to "new tooling".
How bout the mfg "new tooling" include new material. .....Hybrid,.... steel, aluminum, brass, and tin. ( all will have the desired effect of weight and metal...which is what is "required" by most hobbiests).
justakid posted:Lots of discussion. BUT... How about we ask for brass, tin, aluminum or steel castings and forget about diecast all together. With the thousands of items being made and the potential for thousands in the future, cost increase should be negligible. We keep hearing how new items are not produced using old parts. How everything is costly due to "new tooling".
How bout the mfg "new tooling" include new material. .....Hybrid,.... steel, aluminum, brass, and tin. ( all will have the desired effect of weight and metal...which is what is "required" by most hobbiests).
This is a reasonable thought or question, but there are reasons that zinc alloy castings are used versus Aluminum or brass for example. The quick comments are that both are more expensive as bulk casting materials and the zinc alloys have much lower melting temperatures and due that the casting dies do have a much longer life span and the with lower casting temps, the material provides much less shrinkage, especially compared to brass. I'd have to check but the AL and Brass may require higher injection pressures which could necessitate more costly machinery. It is all about cost here.
The other thing to keep in mind here is that honestly, as hard as it may be to recognize or accept, the actual percent of diecast parts that have or get zinc pest is a fraction of a percent of ALL the diecast components on all Lionel and or MTH trains. If you think about it, it really is a batch here and a batch there but because a single component may be run from an individual batch, the effect is every like part on a loco for example is bad, like the GG1 truck frames in the other thread.
Sorry I am babbling, but it is interesting to learn about and hopefully a better understanding might prevent someone from being either blindly worried that every train they have will self destruct or falsely comfortable that this is a perfect technology and nothing like this is possible to happen again.
Toys made in the early 1900"s were tinplate or cast iron. I have seen many surviving examples of both. I have also seen the remnants of diecast toys from that era. More tinplate than diecast or cast iron seems to have survived. Musical instruments of brass, copper and tin from that era also seem to have withstood the test of time. Brass clock movements survive. Metal cylinder music boxes of steel tin and wood survive. Pot metal and some diecast seem to eventually disentigrate. Methods of production of "other" metals must surely have improved in 100 years. There are some beautiful o scale "tinplate" models made in Europe, at prices comparable to US imported diecast. I would bet some of the parts of those models might be imported from China. If we create a "need" China will find a way to produce and sell to us. Look at some of the lithograph embossed cookie tins " Made in China". They know how to stamp and emboss steel too.
Zinc rot?
My plastic and metal LGB and Piko locomotives and rolling stock, ( made in Germany and then China) are running fine over the last 10 years.
Not trying to grind an axe head.
O scale 6 wheel passenger trucks are stamped metal assemblies with diecast sideframes and steel needle point axles with wheels. Why can't someone provide stamped metal sideframes? ( as replacements and new product).
Why do trucks have to be diecast? They are already more than half stamped metal. Knuckle Couplers are diecast, but the arms and springs are metal. Could a knuckle be cast in steel ? All the other parts are readily produced. We need to ask for a change and not continue to complain. Most accept a higher cost for bells and whistles. Maybe a "better" metal solution won't increase cost. Diecast as a model medium has continued due to hobbiests demand, percieved as "better". Maybe, maybe not.
I always liked die cast - I have Lionel 700 series and the MTH hudson in die cast.
The early 700T had a horrible record of disintegrating - fortunately, repros abound.
I now prefer lost wax or lost plastic brass, bronze, or nickel silver. It is more expensive, but with newer 3 D printers costs may be coming down.
I am lusting after an MTH Bi-polar at the moment. Any reports of faulty castings in them?
I bought several sets of "Weaver" arch bar trucks, which l have used a lot of in bashes, just before Weaver disappeared, and when l tried to use any of, all crumbled in my hands. I understand these were procured for Weaver " over there". And, of course, in an O scale show, a fellow victim grumbled that good trucks, if available, cost more than the car.
scott.smith posted:I have had my share of issues. However do not misinterpret the zinc pest for paint issues. I have had bubbles and warping from a couple of different manufacturers. I have also seen misapplied paint that looks similar however the issue doesn't go down to the locomotive skin. I know my plastic shells aren't suffering from Zinc Rot and some of your die cast locomotives aren't either. If the surface is smooth and not warped below the paint; you have a paint issue not zinc rot.
Scott Smith
Scott can explain this issue about thee paint with little more detail. Looking at the photos posted concerning the MTH P5a and looking at mine it does appear that there is no deformity in the shell/body casting of the locomotive but it has those hairline cracks all over it. I am afraid to do anything with it for fear it will crumble.
My zinc rot items...
K-Line early heavyweight trucks
Weaver trucks
RailKing Hiawatha drive wheels
add the crumbling diecast to failed circuit boards, and longevity of "collectible" trains is not assured.
I often wonder why such high priced hobby items don't use brass trucks, It probably goes back to the P/W Lionel days when zinc was the economical choice but rot wasn't as common back then as it is now. Today's Asian produced Zamak alloy contains impurities and that causes deterioration.
@chris a posted:I don't have the Atlas O Item # for these 40 foot boxcars, as some OGR forum member sold them to me without the boxes and "chose not to mention" that zinc pest rot had destroyed the ladders, grab irons, stirrups and all the wheel trucks.... thanks !!! I am pretty sure he knew what was going on as when the box arrived, all the disintegrating detail parts were floating around in the bottom of the box....
These were the WM 40 foot, XAR double door boxcars.... I ended up finding some replacement ladders, maybe Weaver, and then weathered them as I wasn't going to resell these "problem children" to some other person... Managed to save two of the four trucks with some metal parts and JB Weld. what a mess....
Dave C: that's a pretty neat idea using JB Weld to epoxy in the the blind "T" nut and the "shoulder screw" to make a threaded mount for the truck.
I have these same cars with the exact same problems
Only zinc pest I have is my ATlas war emergency hoppers.
I wonder how many here have items crumbling away in their boxes and they don't even know it! 
I used to collect 1:18 diecast automobiles and there are pictures of models crumbling away within their unopened window boxes.
Dave, bummer. That paint job looks good. Luckily you hadn't gotten around to the decal and clearcoat.
You can add Williams passenger car trucks and diesel sideframes to the list. I have had pest on both my 72' streamliners and my 72' heavyweights and a few locos.
I may have a couple of MTH scale boxcars that I bought 15 to 20 years ago with couplers that may have this zinc rot problem.
This is probably a stupid question: is there anything that can be done to eliminate the zinc rot or minimize its effects?
My recollection is that when I encountered it, I sprayed some WD 40 on it.
Arnold
@Arnold D. Cribari posted:This is probably a stupid question: is there anything that can be done to eliminate the zinc rot or minimize its effects?
Arnold
Unfortunately, no. It is an issue within the metal itself caused by impurities in the zinc. You can patch them up, but that is a short term solution because the corrosion effects will continue. I repaired some pesty items a while back. I expect them to fail again at which time hopefully some affordable, quality parts will be available to repair them properly.
MTH 20-6519 Amfleet passenger coaches. Couplers have zinc rot issues...
I purchased approximately 14 pairs of Lionel "O" Scale 2 Spring Sprung Bettendorf Trucks and 3 Spring Sprung Roller Bearing Trucks and put them in a closet and forgot about them around the early 2000s. About 2 years ago, I had need for several of the Roller Bearing Trucks and got them out of the closet. Yep, 5 pair of the roller bearing trucks were disintegrating. Anything that was made out of pot metal was falling apart. I called Lionel up in North Carolina and talked to someone in the warranty dept and the person told me "it was out of warranty". I asked would they exchange them -- the answer was NO! I asked if they would fix them, I would pay the bill for it -- The answer was No! That was the last time I ever bought a Lionel Product.
Added this on 07/07/2020--I received an email from someone saying that I was bashing LIONEL with my commentary above. This is the honest truth what happened when I called Lionel's warranty department about 2 years ago. I was not the one at fault, this was Lionel's Problem in which they put zinc rot car trucks onto the market. The sad thing about this is that Lionel uses Chinese Companies that could not care less if there pot metal is contaminated with lead or zinc.....and we the buyers get the Rot if we buy something contaminated. The same thing goes for the MTH stuff that comes from China. So what are you going to do? Examine your Chinese made trains for zinc rot every week?
I have had trucks from MTH that had Zinc Rot also. I had sold several "O" Scale UP Tuscan Gondolas to a gentleman and he reported to me that several of the Pot Metal Coupler Armatures on some of the cars were disintegrating. Lucky, I had several extra of the trucks and sent them to him.
The latest incident of Zinc Rot took place about 5 weeks ago. I had bought a N&W Railking Streamline J and it had a beautiful die-cast engine and tender plus 4 freight cars. I just took it out of the box after purchasing the set way back around 1998. The engine had a small problem with the smoke unit, but the tender was a disaster. I wanted to put a new battery in the tender and took the item apart. I got the metal base off the tender, separated from the top shelf with no difficulty. I checked out the tender and as I held it in my hand, one of the side frames to one of the trucks broke off. Then another side frame broke off and finally all 4 side frames broke off. I just sat there and looked in dismay at the mess that just occurred. I got out my Trusty Dollar Store Tube of superglue and worked for over 4 frustrating hours, but I was able to get the trucks back together. I took the engine/tender over to a gentlemen that use to repair trains at Davis Trains (now defunct) in Milford, Ohio. He told me that he has seen a lot of the dreadful zinc rot over the years. He sees a lot of Railking "stuff" and he will try to get me some new side frames.
Lesson Learned by these incidences......Inspect your trains regularly. The reason why we have Zinc Rot in pot metal used In our toy trains is that the country were the die-casting is done does not really care what kind of metal they use. They just take it in on recycling and could not care less if it is contaminated with zinc/lead or not. Remember, we are over 3000 miles from there country and they could not care less what is being sent to us.
I wonder if they are putting out $2000 dollar engines and sending them to the USA that have contaminated pot metal casting?
PS--Of all the Toy Trains that I have bought from South Korea, I have never had a problem with them nor had I ever had a case zinc rot.
Added on 07/07/2020 ---- The real answer to not having a zinc or lead "ROT" in our trains is to make the trucks and any extra parts of hard PLASTIC. How many people are going to visit your layout with a magnifying glass to check to see if the trucks or add on parts are made from plastic and not metal. Toy trains should be fun to operate and we should not have the worry that the side frames, coupler armatures, etc will decay due to contamination from lead or zinc. Axles and wheels of freight/passenger cars should be steel and extra add on parts should be made from durable plastic.....enough said and done --- sincerely yours railbear601
I'm surprised no one mentioned the kline box cars. I bought several of the Santa fe map series boxcars. They stayed in the box for many years. When I went to use them I found several of the truck frames had disintegrated inside the box.
"Inspect your trains regularly"
Unfortunately, I don't think there is much one can do once the rot appears. The only thing is to make sure the pieces you are running don't fall apart while they are being run.
I've been buying used rolling stock recently and this thread made me check each piece (specifically the couplers and trucks). So far so good!
Well...I have a proto-1 big boy that is slowly rotting away...so this problem has been around for a long time....
I just returned a MTH RS-1 diesel to the seller (not an individual) that had damaged side frames because of "zink-rot".
Appears the disintegration happened during shipping. The MTH manufacture date was from 2010.
The ladders, grab irons and stirrups on my Atlas 8508-series MDT reefers disintegrated. Because Altas built these cars using what had been Intermountain tooling, I was able to replace the broken pieces easily with original (plastic) Intermountain components.
Sorry to revive an old thread, but I need to add the MTH Railking SP Daylight set to the list that was cataloged from 2000-2002. I've seen two examples that were both 2001 production that had swelling and disintegration to the drivers. All other cast parts are perfect at this time.
Everytime this topic comes up, I feel the need to point out that this only seems like a Chinese issue because right now, EVERYTHING is made there. I've had Italian ( Rivarossi) in HO AHM and N scale Atlas with it; US made HO models (John English, Ulrich), and probably some others I'm forgetting.
I understand the frustration, I do, but blaming the Chinese because "they don't care" is probably not...helpful and doesn't solve anything.
Okay, fire away. 🙂
Mark in (wet) Oregon 🎄
I understand this should not be happening but maybe a solution would be 3D printing?
I am don’t know the alot about 3D printing but would 3D printed side frames work as replacements with maybe brackets on the side frames to attach where needed?
I had one example so far a K line Ewing Oil tanker whose trucks crumbled on original unpacking. I fear more rot to come as more units are unearthed from the Underalls.
I used to put a lot of value on die cast, now it's a liability.
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