Life in the BTO Era?

My dealer, Imperial Trains, would have at least offered to look for the item if they didn't have an extra.  I'd find a new dealer if they didn't even offer to help.

BTO is a fact of life now.  If you order it and it doesn't meet your expectations someone will take it off your hands.

So, if BTO has been in place for some time now by MTH, Atlas, 3rd Rail (and now Lionel), and I never knew it...I really haven't missed out on anything (the too dumb to know it syndrome ) have I???

I still don't know what the philosophy is behind BTO, or how it differs from "the way it use to be".  I'm old but I wasn't around for the inception of O scale so I don't have the all-knowing insight some of more seasoned forumites do.

I suppose at one time a company would make X number of units and put them on the market.  Now (BTO) they only make enough for the orders they receive?  What if they don't receive but 5 orders, do they still make it?  Now that would truly be BTO!

Thanks Marty!  I have seen 3rd Rail say they did runs of 25 and I know Weaver will do runs of 100 on their rolling stock.

Maybe with this new "rapid-prototyping"/3D printing things can eventually be made quicker and in smaller quantities for a reasonable(?) price or is that wishful thinking?

That's because tinplate is really a niche-within-a-niche kind of market.

I suppose BTO will now become the norm for O-Gauge simply as a means of mitigating the fact that there's a huge glut of stuff out there in the market right now that may never get absorbed.  Think about it.

David 

Welcome to Lionel's future. And for the record, this is not a bad thing.

I'm not convinced it's Lionel's permanent future as much as it's just another variation on a theme.  Lionel has taken the "allocated product" approach in the past whenever the marketing gurus have wanted to stoke the fire for demand generation.  And I see BTO in the same light.  It's certainly not the be-all / end-all that some folks are making it.  There are pro's and con's to all the ways that products are produced.

BTO's biggest negative is the lack of ability to "see before you buy".  And for rivet-counters and purists, that's definitely not a good thing.

In more ways than one, BTO pushes the overall risk factor away from the manufacturer/importer toward the consumer.  The most obvious elements of risk will lie with (1) dealers who order "extra units" to appease consumers who prefer not to pre-order, and (2) consumers who pre-order sight unseen.

Dealers seeking to minimize risk will likely require pre-order deposits for the big-ticket items -- as many did with the Big Boy, or simply not order any extra units beyond those backed by actual customer reservations -- in essence choosing not to carry inventory.  It's gonna be a style of business choice.

In healthier economic times, the pendulum will likely swing back to normal production and inventory levels.  After all, the risk (in a healthy economy) should reside where there's profit to made.  No risk... no reward.  However, we're clearly not living in ideal times right now.

David

Oops.

I saw "Life in the BTO Era" and thought this was about O-gauge in the '70's when Bachmann-Turner Overdrive was popular. 

Perhaps I don't really get the concept of BTO. To me, Build-To-Order means custom stuff not production line mass production built on an as needed basis. Sort of like Crosman's custom shop where you can go online and select what options you want to have them build your own personal airgun. If I were to fork out the cash in advance on a locomotive or car that is going to be built just for me (not a pre-order), I would hope I get to have it detailed and/or painted the way I want, not be another cookie cutter look-a-like that everyone else who bought one has.

 >>>I don't really get the concept of BTO. <<

The concept is simple. Based on fear, BTO hopes to scare weak minded fence sitters into ordering.

In this highly repetitive hobby, the concept of getting shut out is a joke..

Joe

So that is why everyone cries when their pre-order is cancelled due to lack of demand

In my opinion, the entire process needs to change for all. You place the order directly with Lionel, then select a "delivering dealer".   Pay Lionel directly and Lionel will pay the dealer a commission upon delivery. The dealer does need to guess the items to keep on hand, they just know that the item is fully paid and you will come pick it up. 

"...as you may not have the ability to get your favorite engine if you wait too long."

I worry about the new and/or young modeler who may want one of these models but doesn't quite have the money or comes into the hobby after the order deadline. The one part of this hobby that I have long detested is the "if you don't buy it now it will be too late" aspect.

"We want to enhance the collectible nature..."

I wonder how long before these BTO's will come with a "Letter of Authenticity" that isn't worth the paper it is printed on?

quote:

Wow, this is an insulting and condescending post if I ever read one.

Then you haven't been around long have you?

LOL, These BTO's aren't new.. they're reissues.

Actually, if you think I'm condesending,  think again...

IMO, it's Lionel insulting me with a BTO on tired old reissues with outrageous MSRP's...

When or if they offer up something new, I'll buy into the concept.

Joe 

quote:

"We want to enhance the collectible nature..."

 

I wonder how long before these BTO's will come with a "Letter of Authenticity" that isn't worth the paper it is printed on?

Lionel has been trying to leverage the collectors market since around 1974, when they released the first "limited edition" trains: the Coke set, and the Gold Chessie Geep.

One might say the service station sets were also leveraging the collectors market.

Was the first one the 1187 Illinois Central Geep set?

I highly doubt dealers will be able to survive on customer pre-orders alone. I think they will be forced to order extra for store stock or they literally won't have anything left to sell.

In the end I think we will see a lot of smaller dealers fold while big dealers, especially those that are also distributors, will continue to flourish. It's another discussion altogether, but when the distributors can also sell to the public for less than many dealers can buy for I just don't see how they can compete in the long run. The distributor can order extra stock and simply sell wholesale to other dealers if they don't move off of their shelves. Small dealers don't have that luxury. It's a win-win for the big guys.

I find it interesting that you can still get pre-order pricing on the Vision Line BB at some places even this far removed from the announcement.

I do not see this as a scare tactic.  As cbojanower pointed out, items are cancelled quite often.  I suspect the manufacturer would not drop the item if they could sell enough units to make a profit.  

David made a good point about purchasing sight-unseen and not having the chance to wait and see it before purchasing.  With BTO the accuracy of the catalog does become more significant.  If I am forced to pre-order to increase the odds that the engine will be built then the catalog should have an accurate description of engine's features and a reasonably accurate depiction of its appearance.

Having said that I have to believe that a handful of dealers will order units for inventory....right?  I agree with Jonathan, the ability for distributors (wholesalers) to sell at the retail level gives them an unfair advantage.  Those are the dealers that can buy inventory and more and more LHS will close.

There are plusses and minuses to the BTO concept. For the OEM, it should result in fewer "Blow-outs". To the buyer/collector, it should have a positive effect on the resale value.

As a downside the MTH H3 Consolidation was a BTO. I had a pre-order with a "major" Train site and waited patiently for more than 2 years. The announcement came out that they were delivered and I waited to hear from my pre-order. Next thing I see is the same company selling these on eBay for less than the pre-order price. I call to find out when my order was going to ship and was informed that they were out of stock and no longer available.

Point is, with BTO even if you do everything "right" you face the risk of not seeing your order. I was fortunate to find one that had been ordered for stock by another company.

Gilly

I almost think importers like MTH and Lionel should try to do smaller catalogs and concentrate on trying to sell more of a few items so they have better economies of scale and manufacturing cost should go down.  I think having these big Catalog's were alot of the items are canceled does not make much sense. 

Andy,

I thought the exact same thing!  I guess it sort of is like Bachmann-Turner-Overdrive, because all the manufacturers are "Taking care of business", Williams by Bachmann included.  

My thinking is that if I pre-order something, and it is never made, I can deal with it.  I don't really have to have anything.  I got out of that mode when I got tired of HO.  It's not like I just have to have a Western Maryland Russian Decapod #1110, and nothing short of that will do.  Today, I'll just buy something else.

While continuing to search for product, I came across this blurb on a dealer website regarding MTH pre-orders...

Once the deadline has passed, MTH will not be able to increase the number of items produced to meet future demands during the current catalog run. Products may be ordered passed the deadline, but they will have to be added on a case by case basis and are dependent on availability from MTH.   WE CANNOT GUARANTEE PRODUCTS ORDERED AFTER THE DEADLINE HAS PASSED.

Sure sounds like a BTO scenario to me.  Lionel generated so much buzz about going to BTO, and here MTH (as well as Atlas-O) have been doing it all along for years.  Go figure!!!  

So the biggest wild card about all of this will be the quantity of "extra units" that dealers might order beyond those backed by real customer pre-orders.  Aside from consumers who back out, these dealer "extras" may be the only chance folks have who miss the pre-order deadline or who choose to wait for product to ship.  Of course, the secondary market is also a possibility, but you run the risk of dealing with scheiksters looking to make an instant, ridiculous profit on "hot" items.     But that's always been a downside to this corner of the hobby.

Considering Lionel VL Big Boys can still be had for pre-order pricing and terms, it sounds like enough of the larger dealers are willing to take a risk on some items.  For other items where multiple roadnames/roadnumbers are offered, those may not so easily be found if we're looking for something particular.

I guess if I found myself needing to place a BTO order after the ordering deadline, I'd prefer to do it with a dealer who can confirm the order as coming from their "extras" inventory rather than simply relying on the hope that the dealer might source an extra from the importers when the product(s) ship.

David

Regarding built to order trains...

I always think of the immortal words spoken by Frank Barone in the "Everybody Loves Raymond" sitcom---

"I've learned to do without."

Jeff C

Same here, if I walk into a hobby shop and see something I like, I buy it, and if it isn't there to buy, oh well. 

Art

I am totally fine with this kind of policy and think it carries more benefits than disadvantages.

The only problem I have with the BTO policy is that there was an item in the 2014 Vol. 1 catalog (ES44AC page 39) that is BTO but not noted that way. I ordered the CN version and found out it was BTO after the fact. It wasn't life or death to me but I would hate to lose out on a product I wanted just because it was BTO but not noted that way.

Life as we have know it ceases to exist, O well I buy to many trains anyway.

BTO means nothing, if you want it, order it. If you do you most likely will get it. 

If if it is cancelled, buy something else, plain and simple eh. Why raise your blood pressure if it is BTO AND NOT MADE? 

I don't honestly understand the angst that some folks have towards B-T-O.

For the more expensive items, if something is announced you probably need to pre-order, if you want to get it. This often holds true whether the item is B-T-O or not.

I think for some items B-T-O is a win-win for both the manufacturer and the customer.  I have items like my 3rd Rail Columbian set which were made in very small quantities once the manufacturer was able to recoup their cost. 

Jim 

From now on, I think I would treat anything I really wanted in the way of engines and rolling stock as a BTO item, except for maybe the starter train sets, Christmas items and some accessories that are intended to be ordered and stocked by the train stores. A pre-order could also help make sure the item makes it to production instead of being cancelled. Around here the only way to make sure you get what you want is to pre-order and it's been that way for quite a while. We are lucky to have a train store let alone one that has a ton of items from the catalogs just for store stock. My LHS actually has quite a bit of stuff like layout building supplies, transformers, track, accessories, tools, paint, etc., but not a lot of engines and rolling stock are stocked.

While everyone seems to be on the bandwagon of BTO, I am a skeptic. My concern is when you order a BTO item and it arrives defective and there is not way to replace it. I have had this happen prior to BTO due to items selling out according to the LHS. The end result is I never got what I paid for except the disappointment of getting it, finding out it was defective, and then finding out it could not be replaced. How is BTO going to solve that?

I agree about MTH having some items as "extras" at their Columbia, MD warehouse.  When that happens, these items often show up on the MTH product finder as "MTH has this item in stock" when we click on a list of dealers to whom MTH has shipped the item.

As far as ordering items after a pre-order deadline, I only have three experiences...

• For an Atlas-O item, I was able to recently find several Bethlehem Steel coil cars after they shipped, but it took several phone calls to find them.  No big deal... with a happy ending.    But for awhile, I was ready to conclude these were nowhere to be found. 

• For Lionel, I had no problem ordering the MKT Texas Special E8/E9 and matching passenger cars from Charlie Ro well-after Lionel's BTO pre-order deadline.  Another happy ending... although technically still pending.  But my experience with Charlie Ro is such that I'm not worried at all.

• For an MTH item, I outlined my first "MTH BTO experience" in my original post... and that's what prompted me to start this thread.  It could simply have been that dealer's policy to stop accepting pre-orders after their MTH order had been placed.  Their choice to do that.  So  I've since placed a "late pre-order" with another dealer, back to my old-time favorite Charlie Ro; and they took my order without any hesitation.  I should know for sure in a couple of weeks when MTH ships these items.

Sometimes, it's nice to have the flexibility to order or purchase something after we see a production sample video.  And that's what brought me to this point a few days ago.  I liked the MTH Dreyfuss locomotive with PT tender along with a matching set of passenger cars and add-ons.  I wasn't particularly moved to pre-order it when the catalog first came out, but after seeing the production sample video it made its way onto my short-list of things to purchase.    For the dealers who can help me out in this type of scenario, there's business to be had.  For those dealers who only order X items based on early pre-orders via consumers, then so be it... they're not gonna always get my business.

Yes... I agree whole-heartedly with those of the ilk that if we miss out on a BTO item, it most certainly isn't the end of the world.  If something isn't meant to be, then so be it.  There are a ton of more important priorities in life.   

David

We have had that here for a while in the form of our local shop doesn't order a lot for stock. You pre-order sight unseen or risk missing out. So far nothing has been impossible to get.

With some of the production issues, is it safer to wait it out rather than having to refuse it?

I think BTO is interesting from the perspective of understanding the business side of the hobby. I guess the manufacturers have been burned so many times by blow-outs and similar that this overcapacity / excess product is perceived to be a big problem.  BTO is how they address it.  That's fine.

But from my perspective as a hobbyist, I am not sure I really care.  If I want something (rare, we have too much already) I will order it.  If I don't, and I miss out, no big deal.  To me at least, the biggest issue in the O gauge hobby right now is product quality.  Too many new products are hit or miss, and given the price point of these locos, that's simply not acceptable.