Lionel 700E Locomotive - Late 1930's - Early 1940's Version

JB Weld. I’ve used it to fill in small holes when relocating bell brackets. Place something like thin styrene that will flex under the cab roof. Hold it in place with just finger pressure. Even masking tape might work. You need it there so when you add the JB Weld it won’t come out the other side when pushed in place.  Dab in the weld with some stripwood or styrene and remove the styrene underneath.  Let it dry overnight. You can add a bit more to fill in any low spots. Better to fill in low spots than sand off a big blob. Let it cure and give it a final sanding and paint.

@Dave_C posted:

JB Weld. I’ve used it to fill in small holes when relocating bell brackets. Place something like thin styrene that will flex under the cab roof. Hold it in place with just finger pressure. Even masking tape might work. You need it there so when you add the JB Weld it won’t come out the other side when pushed in place.  Dab in the weld with some stripwood or styrene and remove the styrene underneath.  Let it dry overnight. You can add a bit more to fill in any low spots. Better to fill in low spots than sand off a big blob. Let it cure and give it a final sanding and paint.

Thank you, Dave.  I had thought about JB Weld as a possibility.  I really appreciate the step-by-step instructions.

I still would like to know why someone drilled that hole in the cab roof to begin with.  It is in the middle (in left/right terms) and near the back.  Is there any reason to have a hole there on a Hudson?  Perhaps to add a detail part that Lionel missed?

how big is the hole?

Did any detail get damaged due to the drilling?

The JB Weld should make for a strong repair.  Some quality auto body filler  (better than Bondo) can then finish it and be more easily sanded.

@CPF3 posted:

how big is the hole?

Did any detail get damaged due to the drilling?

The JB Weld should make for a strong repair.  Some quality auto body filler  (better than Bondo) can then finish it and be more easily sanded.

Thanks, CPF3.

It is a pretty small hole, about the size of a ball point pen tip, in that the metal tip of a pen would fit in the hole.  But, luckily, it is located in a flat spot with no detail, so no damage other than the hole.  Once filled, it would just need to be sanded flat to match the level of the remaining surface.

Here is a top view of the K-Line scale model of the J1e Hudson.  Does anyone know what that bulge is near the back-center of the cab roof?  The prewar Lionel 700E does not have that detail and that is exactly where the hole was drilled in my model.  Maybe the person who drilled the hole added that detail and it fell off at some point.  I am curious as to what that part might be on the prototype.

just my stupid view.why even bother? i am not trying to be a wise ***.I would thin it is better to leave the holy grail alone.I look foward to your reply.I ask out of a disire to learn more about this great hobby

You will likely have to repaint the roof. When you smooth whatever you use to fill the hole you will have file and sand at least some of the surrounding paint. Any imperfection will stand out as much or more that just the hole. The trick will be to match the sheen.

Pete

@kranky posted:

just my stupid view.why even bother? i am not trying to be a wise ***.I would thin it is better to leave the holy grail alone.I look foward to your reply.I ask out of a disire to learn more about this great hobby

Well, good point actually.  I think the hole is there for a reason.  It is perfectly centered and my guess is that it was intended to "improve" the model by adding that missing detail part.  If I can figure out what the part is, then it would certainly be easier to just paint the part and mount it in the hole.  It looks like it might be prototypical and something that Lionel just neglected to include.  Maybe somebody in the forum who knows a lot about Hudsons or NYC locomotives in general will weigh in...

Here is a photo of an HO Brass model of a J1e Hudson that shows the detail part that I believe the drilled hole at the top back of the cab of my 700E was made to add.  Does anyone know what that part is on the top of the cab at the back?

For comparison, here is a photo of a 700E Hudson, of course without that detail part at the top rear of the cab:

thanks for the info.what a great looking engine.the hudson is such a beautiful engine.It is symetry personified.maybe somebody can 3d print the detail part.just great engine

Why don't you post couple pictures of it

You're going to fill a small hole, then sand and repaint the roof of an original 700E that's in otherwise excellent condition?  Suggestion:  leave the hole alone.

You have a collectors piece with a minor blemish that represents part of the history of that locomotive? Another vote for "leave it alone"

I'm just spit balling here.  I can't find a good high detailed photo of the top of a NYC Hudson to know if it is prototypical but could a previous owner have run a small cord from the bell or whistle back to the cab?  They could have fit a tiny handle on the cord once inside the cab to keep it from pulling back out.

It depends on what you want out of the 700e, if you are looking to maintain value I would not fix the hole. In trying to fill it, then matching paint, you could end up decreasing its value (and if you are okay with that possibility, then obviously it is fine to do what you want, it is yours to enjoy.  In general restoration work of any kind on a collectible item/antique is tricky, in the car world it is not uncommon for unrestored originals to go for a lot more money than ones restored back to mint shape.

If the hole bothers you, then I would say find a detail piece for it, you can always remove that later if you decide you want to sell it. Again, this is totally up to you, it is yours to do what you wish with it.

Not sure what that part might be. No mention of it is “Know Thy Hudsons” and only a few photos even hint at its existence. Maybe it was used on a few of its subs as a radio antenna.

To me any engine is just a hunk of metal. I would make the repair and be done with it. I am current removing parts from a Smithsonian Hudson to detail a Williams die cast Hudson if you want to know my frame of reference. Not sure how an engine with an undetectable repair can be worth less than one with a non original hole but then thats me.

Do what you are comfortable doing.

Pete

That small “ bump” on the back of the cab roof found on SOME NYC locomotives, (not just Hudsons) is a work light used to shine onto the tender. On our “toy diecast models” this is just represented as a bump, on the real locomotives, and fine brass models, the light fixture would actually overhang the cab roof,…..that detail would easily be broken off in for lack of a better term, “ running our toys” …..if the wee little hole bothers you, fashion a small “ bump” from a piece of brass stock, paint the hump flat black, and use a tiny tiny dot of CA to affix it in place…..problem solved,…

Pat

@Norton posted:

Not sure what that part might be. No mention of it is “Know Thy Hudsons” and only a few photos even hint at its existence. Maybe it was used on a few of its subs as a radio antenna.

To me any engine is just a hunk of metal. I would make the repair and be done with it. I am current removing parts from a Smithsonian Hudson to detail a Williams die cast Hudson if you want to know my frame of reference. Not sure how an engine with an undetectable repair can be worth less than one with a non original hole but then thats me.

Do what you are comfortable doing.

Pete

The collector market is a weird one (and being an operator, it is alien to me, too). To fix the hole, as others pointed out, you need to fill it, then would have to sand it, which likely would affect the surrounding area, then you would need to match the paint, which means trying to match 80 year old paint likely. Assuming you fix the top and the bottom of the hole, and paint it, they still could potentially see it.  Like I said, that is an alien world to me, too, but fixing stuff that is collectible is always kind of fraught from what I can tell, the people who seriously collect, well, they are different

@harmonyards posted:

That small “ bump” on the back of the cab roof found on SOME NYC locomotives, (not just Hudsons) is a work light used to shine onto the tender. On our “toy diecast models” this is just represented as a bump, on the real locomotives, and fine brass models, the light fixture would actually overhang the cab roof,…..that detail would easily be broken off in for lack of a better term, “ running our toys” …..if the wee little hole bothers you, fashion a small “ bump” from a piece of brass stock, paint the hump flat black, and use a tiny tiny dot of CA to affix it in place…..problem solved,…

Pat

Pat,

Thank you for the explanation.  That is exactly what I wanted to know and it makes perfect sense.  I am now leaning toward adding that light fixture detail in brass, rather than attempting a repair, for the reasons others have suggested.  Maybe some supplier has already produced it?  I checked Precision Scale, but did not see it.  It is kind of hard to see, but the light fixture is definitely there in the builder's photo of 5344, just like in the Overland HO brass model in the photo above, so I guess Lionel just failed to include it on the 700E, because it should have been there since the goal was to accurately model the prototype:

I'd just put some sort of an unobtrusive plug button in the hole and paint the button to match the loco.  Or the plug could be flush with the top of the cab, too,  No sanding, no painting the cab roof, etc.  Big bang with minimal work and risk.

Dale

@Pennsylover posted:

I'd just put some sort of an unobtrusive plug button in the hole and paint the button to match the loco.  Or the plug could be flush with the top of the cab, too,  No sanding, no painting the cab roof, etc.  Big bang with minimal work and risk.

Dale

Thanks Dale.  That is what I will probably do.  I would like to make it look something like the prototype piece, as shown in the HO brass model.  I guess one of the thoughts is that these original 700E locomotives are pieces of history already, and this one with the hole in the cab roof has its own story to tell.  By adding the light fixture part, I can preserve that story and the original/previous owner's intent.  I kind of like that idea.

A seasoned auto body man or modeler could make the hole disappear to never be seen again from either side.  But that takes lots of experience and comes at a cost.  If the hole is tiny, I would also just leave it alone or find that detail part and reinstall it and enjoy the model.  Heck, most all of us would love to own just one original 700e that is free of warpage or zinc pest let alone more than one.   Definately a "holy grail" among Lionel collectors due to its very high cost to aquire 99% of the time.   AD

I'd vote for (not that you asked) leaving that little hole alone and moving on. Adding the proper detail is not a bad idea, but carries its own risks, and the 700E, nice as it is, is not "super-detailed" by current Hudson standards anyway. The hole is also part of the loco's history.

I may be a little late to this discussion.  If your repair has been made I am hoping it meets with your satisfaction.    I have fixed all types of damage in cast shells with the following method.  1.)  Mix a very small amount of epoxy and place just enough to fill the damage....in this case the hole in the roof.   Immediately tool/work the epoxy until it is smooth with the surrounding surface.   As quickly as possible, clean any residual epoxy off of the surrounding surface.  Allow the epoxy to dry, and then simply paint the small amount of epoxy filling the hole.  No need to sand and paint the roof.    As a variation of this method, I have also tinted the epoxy while mixing with some paint. 

Put me down for, 'leave it alone'.  If you think the engine has value (of course) and are selling it in a TCA regulated event, you will have to disclose the repair.  Doing that will decrease the value more than leaving it alone.  Also, the engine has its own particular history that should be preserved.

FWIW there is a repainted 700E on the auction site that shall not be named already at $4k. Apparently not everyone believes unrestored is worth more.

Pete