Lionel PW Questions...

All:

Found 57 series bulbs at Auto Zone. These Sylvania's are rated for 14v. Have an extra on hand now. The headlight on my 2065 is now shining again.

bmoran:

Thanks for concurring on the Greenberg book as well as the clarification. I shall start watching for the one.

Art said:

"I still prefer them for nostalgia reasons! But that's me! :-) "

Oh yeah! AND... it ain't just you!

When it comes to Lionel's air whistle, I think their R&D dept came up with the equivalent of the renown "Siren call". Irresistible, it 'tis.

Andre

@laming posted:

All:

Found 57 series bulbs at Auto Zone. These Sylvania's are rated for 14v. Have an extra on hand now. The headlight on my 2065 is now shining again.

bmoran:

Thanks for concurring on the Greenberg book as well as the clarification. I shall start watching for the one.

Art said:

"I still prefer them for nostalgia reasons! But that's me! :-) "

Oh yeah! AND... it ain't just you!

When it comes to Lionel's air whistle, I think their R&D dept came up with the equivalent of the renown "Siren call". Irresistible, it 'tis.

Andre

I'm trying to sell a few of the Geenburg repair manuals for a repair guy who wants $20 each.  With media mail shipping, that would be $23.33 and I can have it in the mail on Monday.

Hi mlaughinnyc:

Interested. Please contact me at laming at cebridge dot net. Be sure to use Greenberg Book or something like that in the subject field.

Thanks.

Andre

Got me some bargain AA 2023's. Yes-siree, lil' doozies, they are. They were supposed to "run excellent". Well...

Setting them on the rails and puttin' some joy juice to them results in no joy. Only buzzing, but no movin'. Off to the workbench...

Here's what I've learned so far, as well as what I've tried:

* I can visibly see the E-unit plunger works. It engages the pawl and rotates the drum. (Sometimes the plunger is a bit slow falling back to the bottom.) The headlight works when power is applied.

* All four drum contact fingers are present. I can't feel or see any slop when I lightly press them with a tiny jewelers screwdriver, but that doesn't mean all of them are actually touching the drum contacts.

* Removed the screw holding the motor to the truck and removed the motor. All rotational parts in the truck assembly rotate freely. (Though they will still be cleaned/lubed.) For now, I've set the truck aside.

* Tried running with current clipped to the truck collector and touching the other current lead to the E-unit frame. E-unit cycles, nothing happens at the motor. The motor shaft spins fine when twirled with my fingers.

Question:

If I touch the power leads from the transformer directly to the brush brass, shouldn't the motor spin? In other words, if I touch power where the blue wire and the yellow wire is attached to the brush brass in the photo below, should the motor spin? (It will with a DC motor... but this motor runs on AC.)

Input appreciated!

Andre

Forgot to mention:

* I've removed the top of the motor, cleaned the armature slots, cleaned the commutator, cleaned the slots in the communtator, cleaned the brushes as well as the brush wells. Reassembled and tried again. Nothing. Armature doesn't spin.

Andre

@laming, these open frame AC PulMor motors do have what appear to be two leads on the brush plate, but contrary to what one may think, these are not identical to the connectors of a DC motor. In these, the field and armature are in series, and the order of such determines the direction of rotation, and that is what the e-unit switches around with the various drum positions.

This is seen here:

And described in the service documents here:

http://www.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=615

To bench test the motor sans the e-unit, you will need to jumper a field winding to one of the brushes, supply ground to the frame, and hot to the other brush.

Thank you bmoran. I will go out to the work bench and try that.

Also, I've submitted an offer for the Greenberg book mentioned above. I think the time has arrived for a manual w/info.

Andre

@laming posted:

Got me some bargain AA 2023's. Yes-siree, lil' doozies, they are. They were supposed to "run excellent". Well...

Setting them on the rails and puttin' some joy juice to them results in no joy. Only buzzing, but no movin'. Off to the workbench...

Here's what I've learned so far, as well as what I've tried:

* I can visibly see the E-unit plunger works. It engages the pawl and rotates the drum. (Sometimes the plunger is a bit slow falling back to the bottom.) The headlight works when power is applied.

* All four drum contact fingers are present. I can't feel or see any slop when I lightly press them with a tiny jewelers screwdriver, but that doesn't mean all of them are actually touching the drum contacts.

* Removed the screw holding the motor to the truck and removed the motor. All rotational parts in the truck assembly rotate freely. (Though they will still be cleaned/lubed.) For now, I've set the truck aside.

* Tried running with current clipped to the truck collector and touching the other current lead to the E-unit frame. E-unit cycles, nothing happens at the motor. The motor shaft spins fine when twirled with my fingers.

Question:

If I touch the power leads from the transformer directly to the brush brass, shouldn't the motor spin? In other words, if I touch power where the blue wire and the yellow wire is attached to the brush brass in the photo below, should the motor spin? (It will with a DC motor... but this motor runs on AC.)

Input appreciated!

Andre

Taking a quick look at your photo, I don't see anything attached to the middle terminal, which is one side of the field.  It takes three test leads to check that motor.

- from transformer to one brush

- from the other brush to the field (middle terminal)

- from the frame of the motor to the other side of the transformer.

Flipping those two brush connections will reverse the motor.

@laming posted:

Thank you bmoran. I will go out to the work bench and try that.

Also, I've submitted an offer for the Greenberg book mentioned above. I think the time has arrived for a manual w/info.

Andre

For anyone else who wants that book, I've got two in new condition for $20 each plus media mail.

bmoran:

Okay, I don't think I'm understanding you correctly in regards to "field winding". That is not the same as the armature winding, is it?

Here's what I did:

Note the red wire (jumper) that grounds to the frame.

And the gator clipped to the other brush for illustrative purposes.

(During testing, I didn't clip it, I just touched it to the brush holder.)

The above resulted in the armature vibrating back/forth. No rotation. I would only touch the lead to the brush momentarily, for I'm sure I'm not connecting it correctly.

I don't think I'm understanding the "field winding", nor am I understanding where to find it so as to jump it to one of the brushes.

I downloaded the first page of the above links and have read it. Reading the info, and looking at the other schematic supplied that's on the first page, I now ask:

Is the "field winding" the coil that sits on the outside of the motor toward the back? i.e. The tab with wire soldered to it indicated by the yellow arrow below:

I'm certainly learning... but I don't seem to be very good at it just yet!.

Andre

mlaughlinnyc:

That helps, too. After supper I will go back out and wire from the yellow arrowed tab, to a brush.

EDIT: Got interrupted and hit the "Post" button too quick. Edit follows...

Also will ground to the side of the motor and touch the hot wire to the open brush.

Thanks.

Andre

P.S. Offer accepted for the Greenberg book. Already paid for it, hope it will be shipped Monday.

Yes, the coil sticking out of the back is the field winding.  This is not a permanent magnet motor as you might find on 1950s HO scale trains or even 2-rail O scale from that era.  The field is energized by current flowing through it, in series with the armature.  The motor will run on AC or DC.  Most postwar operators use a Lionel transformer designed for 50-60Hz AC.

For test purposes, you could attach one transformer lead to one brush, and the other transformer lead to one side of the field.  But in order to make it run you also need a third connection between the other brush and other side of the field.  So you will need 3 leads with alligator clips to test it.

To recap, the series circuit goes:  Transformer -> Brush 1 -> through the armature (one winding at a time depending on commutator phase) -> Brush 2 -> Field 1 -> through the field -> Field 2 -> back to transformer.  It doesn't matter which brush or which side of the field is '1' or '2'.

To use the loco for operations,  you'll probably want to add the mysterious "E-unit" into the circuit.  This is a cyclical sequencing switch that changes the polarity of the brushes relative to the field.  This causes the motor to rotate in the opposite direction.  Hope this clears things up, can't wait to see it run!

Okay, now that I understand the jumper/etc, the motor powers freely either direction. It will even roll up a shop towel onto the pinion, wedging it to a stall. (Don't ask me how I know that.)

In the handling of the motor, tab wires started breaking off, one by one. (Fix one... then another breaks, fix it... then the last one breaks.) Anyway, I stripped and cleaned the wire ends, tinned 'em and re-soldered as needed. Testing indicates all wires made good solder connections.

I reassembled all of it and placed it on the track. Same deal: E-unit plunger works, engages the pawl and rotates the drum... but nothing gets to the motor.

Bypassing the E-unit with all components reassembled resulted in the motor and power truck running just fine, either direction.

SO... the current is not getting through the E-unit. Doesn't matter what drum position, no power ever gets to the motor, either direction.

I think it's time to dig out the multi-meter to see if the current is getting to where it should. Suspect the field coil isn't getting current. If it was one of the other circuits, wouldn't it run in one direction but not the other?

Done for tonight. Getting ready to shut down the layout building and call it good fer now.

Thanks for all the input. Progress was made, and for sure, I've begun the process of learning Lionel wiring circuits. Learned a lot tonight.

Andre

Just read the above and was thinking that a easy check with your meter would be to see if the brushes are getting current. If not, check the short black wire on the E-unit for power where it's soldered to the 4 fingered contact. If there is power there, then somehow the power isn't flowing to the drum, and the cause could be either a dirty drum or contact finger. The solution is to carefully clean the the drum without bending the contact fingers out of their position and see if power is restored. Another possibility is the pin that the drum rotates on has become worn and the drum is moving out of position when the plunger pulls up and rotates the drum, breaking electrical contact. The pivot points on the drum should be fairly tight in the holes punched for them in the e-unit side frames. I've found that any noticeable up or sideways movement means excessive drum pivot wear and drum replacement is needed because those narrow contact fingers are fairly unforgiving and only make good contact with the drum when the drum isn't moving around excessively in the side frames of the E-unit. Usually, the pivot on side of the drum that the black power wire is will be the side that's worn the worst. A lot of heat can be generated there if the commutator is dirty or the motor is pulling more current than normal for whatever reason, and I think all of that heat actually melts the pin some and reduces the pivot's diameter, making it loose in it's mounting hole and moving out of position when the plunger goes up.  I'm making a assumption (yeah, I know how that goes, lol.) that the e-unit coil is functioning the way it's supposed to, which means power is being delivered to the lug where the coil lead and what I call the power lead (short black wire ) is soldered. I've had to change out the E-unit drums on most of my engines that I've acquired over the last 10 yrs because of worn pivot points. That will mean taking the E-unit apart. There's some good videos around on how to do that. Be warned, it's a process that takes patience to get all the pieces lined up to snap the unit back together, but if I can do it with my shaky hands, I'm sure you'll get it done.  Once it's back together and working properly, you shouldn't have to go back into it for another 60 yrs. Good Luck!

P.S. another good indication that E-unit drum is faulty is that it will work some of time. If you have to cycle it ( turning the engine on and off) more than 3 times to get it to move, the drum is worn and needs to replaced and clean the brush holders and commutators as well as checking the soldered joints for good connections. There's no sense in putting a new drum in the E-unit if the cause of the overheating isn't found.

Hi Ed!

Thanks very much for your information.

When I get home from church/lunch commitments this afternoon, I will be using your information to continue the effort to find clues concerning "The Case Of The Reluctant Alco".

(Cue the "Perry Mason" theme music here.)

Andre

UPDATE...

Well, I didn't do anything... merely touching terminals here n' there with the volt meter probe... but it moved! It then started working intermittently, forward only. After cycling the power many times, it started moving forward/neutral/backward more often... and now it's reversing somewhat reliably.

Before it started running, it showed voltage at the E-unit solder tab where multiple wires are soldered, and it read voltage at the solder tab that sits just to the side of the multiple wire solder tab.

Reckon the drum has rotated enough that the contacts and fingers have cleaned themselves enough to function?

Back out to the hobby hut to see if it still works!

Andre

Don't know what I did... but I dood it!

Thanks for all the input! Together we got 'er goin!

Andre

Nice!  Quiet too.  Three-position E-units are just about the most finicky aspect of postwar trains.  Electronic replacements are available, and they are a definite improvement, even if they lack that nostalgic "buzz." 

A trick I learned a long time ago that comes in handy for steam locos whose e-units may be contaminated with smoke residue... If you obtain some plastic-compatible contact cleaner-  what used to be called "color TV tuner cleaner"- you can spray the e-unit contacts with it, and sometimes that will improve operation.  Of course if the nubs are worn or something is bent from an inexpert prior "repair" this won't help.   But the spray is a non-invasive technique that's unlikely to do any harm.  It works for gunked-up motor brush wells too, but it's not a substitute for a careful disassembly and cleaning.

Make sure you get one of the spray cans with the long plastic "straw."  On most steam locos, you can reach the E-unit even without removing the shell.  For safety's sake, spray it outside or in a well-ventilated area away from sparks and flames.  GIVE IT SOME TIME TO EVAPORATE FULLY before applying power.

Glad you got your Alcos running.  Look forward to more updates as your Postwar roster grows!

@Ted S posted:

A trick I learned a long time ago that comes in handy for steam locos whose e-units may be contaminated with smoke residue... If you obtain some plastic-compatible contact cleaner-  what used to be called "color TV tuner cleaner"- you can spray the e-unit contacts with it, and sometimes that will improve operation. 

CRC 2-26 is what I use and would recommend for cleaning contacts such as those on the e-unit drum/fingers.

Thanks Ted and bmoran for the tips!

CRC 2-26:

Might that be available at a True-Value Hardware?  Or would I need to source it online?

All:

Well, as of a few minutes ago, I've got all the latest arrivals up and running...

FA's:

The powered FA works flawless now, lights work on both powered n' dummy, and also the horn works.

6466W:

You know, the one with a lazy whistle relay. (Mentioned in my "Scent Of Ozone" thread.) I shimmed up the flopper thingie and now the weak solenoid can pull it on up to the contacts. Thar she blows! SO... I'm one whistle tender ahead.

(Gee... reckon that means I ought to find a 736 engine to purchase?? )

Andre

CRC 2-26 is list don the TrueValue website, but I tend to get mine from the local Home Depot.

Glad you are finding joy and payoff in this little maintenance work.

Definitely go for the 736 - they are great locomotives! I have a few and enjoy them all!

SSSSSSSSMO-kin!

So I have a 2055 and 2065, both with original (I think) smoke units. I have a partial bottle of SP's and I dropped one in each to see how they smoked with genuine SP tablets. So-so. Neither are really big smokers (for PW engines). 

This brings up a couple questions about smoke and these engines:

* Can I use smoke fluid "as is" and not harm the smoke units?

* If okay to do so, then what is your favorite smoke fluid for using in PW steam engines with OEM, or like original, smoke units therein?

EDIT: Forgot to ask... can smoke fluid be had that smells like SP smoke?

Thanks for any input!

Andre

@laming posted:

* Can I use smoke fluid "as is" and not harm the smoke units?

 Yes.

@laming posted:

* If okay to do so, then what is your favorite smoke fluid for using in PW steam engines with OEM, or like original, smoke units therein?

 I think MTH fluid, and Crest fluid, smoke best. Any will work, and it depends on the loco smoke unit performance as well.

@laming posted:

EDIT: Forgot to ask... can smoke fluid be had that smells like SP smoke?

 You're in luck...  JT Megasteam makes that fluid... "Smoke Pellet- (magic smell of model trains of the past with the scent of "the good 'ole days)".

@ADCX Rob answered your direct questions, but I would also suggest you look at servicing your smoke units.

Service documents are kindly hosted by Olsen's here: http://www.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=629

Of special interest is adding the 2026-44 spring to all piston based smoke units. The service documents notes that it decreases noise, but I also find that it helps prevent the piston return so that it is able to travel the entire cylinder boosting smoke disbursement. Additionally, these smoke unit shave been around for a while and may be gummed up with gook. A good cleaning couldn't hurt as well as replacing the batting (referred to as smoke unit lining).

Also, some of the initial smoke unit heating elements had 9 turns of nichrome wire. Lionel revised this to 8 turns. You can either adapt or replace yours.

Some parts suppliers offer "liquid conversion kits" but I avoid those as unlike the original style, they  can burn out easily if not constantly soaked with smoke fluid. The original units can run pellets or liquid as is just fine, or be run empty with no similar concern.

Thanks Rob!

Found a bottle of JT108... bought it.. it should be on its way tomorrow!

bmoran:

Thanks for your helpful info, too. I've downloaded all the pdf's from that page you linked and will file them in my PW "Tech" folder and read them prior to attacking my smoke units tomorrow.

Working on smoke units...

I recall working on PW smoke units way back during my "Hey-Day Years" of 3-railing, but that was some 25 years ago. I will have to re-learn all over again. I do remember unwinding 1 turn of the heater coil, but before I gleefully unwind a turn on these smoke units, I'll double check to make sure there are NINE rounds before unwinding down to EIGHT. I think I recall the top part of the unit is press fit into the bowl, no? (Can't remember how I separated the bowl parts.) What can I use for the little fibrous gasket that fits between the smoke unit and the body? (Clean the existing gasket as best I can and reuse?)

Batting...

I think I recall using some fiberglass insulation for batting. However, I don't have ready access to a small amount of that. What I can access is the "blown in" type batting that's up in our attic. Will that work? Or, do you recommend a supplier that offers superior stuff to either of my materials?

Questions seem to be multiplistic: 2 questions answered results in 4 more questions asked, etc.

All fer now!

Andre

You can reuse the existing smoke stack gasket (part 671-181 or 726-57).

The batting is also available (part 671-121)

The cover is a press fit, sometimes with a little bit of adhesive. Usually you can gently pull he cover off.

Forum sponsor @Harry Henning of Henning's trains supplies complete kits:

https://hennings-trains.shopli...lionel-steam-lo.html

Thanks again, bmoran!

I've already read the tech docs you linked. Some of it jogged some memories, but I still will need some type of batting, for I'm thinking about using part of tomorrow disassembling, cleaning, and checking the windings on the existing smoke units.

However, even if I do the above, I may go ahead and order a couple/three of those rebuild sets from Hennings or, I might even decide to simply hold off working on these engines until the rebuild kits arrive. (No need in going in twice.)

Andre

My Postwar has always been able to have nice smooth starts, both with ZW, RW and LW transformers.  I have thru the years had a few different engines, but mostly 2343 Santa Fe F3's and 2035 PRR K4 style steamers.  Both need power to run their E unit and in the case of the Santa Fe, its dual motors.  A smooth starting 2343 requires a complete and total tear down, clean and relubrication.  This lowers the motors starting Amps and allows them to start more smoothly and in unison. You have to remember that most of the better PW Lionel is pushing 70 to nearly 80 years old, and many have not been properly serviced in many years.   Same for the transformers.  I love my PW stuff and buy nothing but PW or very late Prewar.  The ozone, hot oil and smoke pellet smells are priceless and the reason I run them.  They are also simple, easy to service and repair at home, and parts are available from many sources.  I use The Train Tender or Olsens for the most part.      AD

I don't know if this is ok or not but instead of batting I used shredded up smoke wick in the bottom of the smoke unit. My feeling is if it is ok as smoke wick for liquid smoke why not in the postwar smoke unit. I have heard that some people leave out the batting altogether.

The most important part when fixing a burned out smoke element is the new element. I actually prefer the original Lionel elements as to me they look more robust than most current replacement elements. Finding originals is not always easy and I have purchased used ones in the past.

This is just my 2 cents worth. 

@N5CJonny, the 2026-44 has been discussed above already:

@bmoran4 posted:

Service documents are kindly hosted by Olsen's here: http://www.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=629

Of special interest is adding the 2026-44 spring to all piston based smoke units. The service documents notes that it decreases noise, but I also find that it helps prevent the piston return so that it is able to travel the entire cylinder boosting smoke disbursement.

As for batting, it comes in the kit, why look for a substitute? Yes, there are those who reinvent the wheel, or scrounge like MacGyver with some success - YMMV.

I wouldn't recommend running with out batting at all. It serves a purpose to wick up the liquid (the smoke pellets melt to a liquid first) and prevent it from leaking out the hole into the piston chamber and making a mess. Be sure when installing the batting that you don't block the pinhole, otherwise, you will experience diminished smoke distribution.

AD:

I too, feel the early 50s products were definitely the cream of the Postwar offerings. I love the look and quality feel of the early 50s Berkshires, for example.

However, having said that, and recognizing that the stamped frame FA's were cheapened, as well as recognizing that the Baldwin Boiler Hudson's don't come up to the standards of say, the early Berkshire's... I also have some appreciation for later models, too. I already have the 2055 and 2065 engines, and intend to "someday" have the 665 and 685 versions, too. Same with the 646, 2046, 2056, Berk-boiler Hudson's. PLUS, I wouldn't mind having select examples of the stamped-frame FA's.

"The ozone, hot oil and smoke pellet smells are priceless and the reason I run them."

Boy, I hear 'ya, AD!  Though I will have to be satisfied with JT Megasteam's 108 "Smoke Pellet" fluid as an ersatz smoke pellet. I have about a 1/3 bottle of orange label SP's... but I'm not in a hurry to stuff 'em down the stack. I kind of like having them around. After I service and clean the smoke units in my two PW steam engines, I will likely only use the smoke fluid therein.

N5CJonny:

I can see value in the spring as an aid to reduce "lag" in the piston falling back down by gravity when at moderate speeds. Sort of like "valve float" in a high-revving push-rod engine. I will probably use the springs when I get the kits.

Don't know about foregoing the batting though. Seems like that helps suspend the fluid closer to the heat source? (Who knows?)

I also think one of the important things is keeping that vent hole cleared so there's no obstruction for the incoming puff of air, as well as helping the piston fall back down by reducing back-pressure suction. (That's probably another area that spring comes in handy, I suppose.)

I think the residue and chalking is a downside to using SP's. Seems they produce a LOT of residue and chalking. My insides of the stacks on the 2055 and 2065 are noticeably whiter after only one pill in each.

BTW: Haven't worked on the smoke units yet today. I've had a couple errands to run and had some work to be done out in the garage on a motorcycle. May just go ahead and order a couple smoker kits from Hennings and wait for them to arrive.

All fer now.

Andre

Just ordered some kits from Hennings.

Along with kind of feeling good to be supporting an OGR sponsor, you end up paying far less than the typical shipping shenanigans that goes on over at The Bay.

As for my pair of engines: I think I'll just wait until the Hennings kits arrive before I tackle the smoke units on 'em.

(OH... and watching a couple more steam engines on The Bay as I type, though I've probably spent enough for a while, for I need to start saving up for a train meet coming up in early Sept!)

EDIT:

bmoran:

Yes, gotta' keep that vent hole at the bottom open. AND, I will be using the batting that will come with the Hennings kits. I like the "one stop shopping" for the kit. Haven't a clue where I would find 1' square piece of fiberglass insulation to use over the coming years!

Andre

Andre, should you ever decide you miss the real deal on smoke pellets or at least something that smells and looks like the originals, you can get them at Trainz.

Trainz product and pellet on the left. Original Lionel on the right. Wooden pamper on the right used to clean smoke stack of residue.

N5CJonny:

Repro smoke pellets?

LOL! I should'a known!

That's great. I hesitate to use up my little bottle of originals. (It's a "warm fuzzy" thing to see them. Non-PW Lionel types will not understand.)

I would assume, what with the repro-pills being much fresher, they're more apt to perform well. The catalog listing I found for them at the Trainz site didn't indicate a count on how many pills... but still... it's cool to know repro-pills are available.

Not so sure I want the bother of needing to periodically clean chalk residue from inside the smoke unit, though.

Andre

Andre, the Originals do not seem to change much with age, although it is common for many to turn to powder (still usable as powder). The Trainz product like the originals come 50 pills to the bottle. The product looks, acts and smells like original. Price when I bought them a few years back was around $15.00 a bottle of 50 pills.  Because I like the original bottle look, I also have six original Lionel full bottles with different label styles that were available in the 40’s and 50’s. I guess we (most of us) have our spending vices.

Laming: Olsens will let you download the OEM Manual on each piece by number ie: 2023, for free just will not be able to print it.  I purchased the entire Lionel Library on CD. 

Quick question:

How involved is to replace a coil coupler assembly on the power truck of Lionel's cast-frame FA? (The truck and draw bar w/coupler appear to be staked into a single assembly.)

Would parts be available online to accomplish the above?

Thanks for any input.

Andre

Which FA and front or rear? I've done them all with specialist press tools, but much can be done by the hobbiest too.

Front. Power truck.

I'm about to chicken out. More issues than just the coupler being broke.

Andre

I just did this repair (and other work) for @windhund42 on their 2023. If it is just the front coil coupler, you can get a whole coil coupler replacement for $8-10 and use a punch to set it (the specialist dies make it easier and safer, but are quite an investment). @laming, Forum sponsor @Harry Henning of Henning's Trains has what you need: https://hennings-trains.shopli...il-coupler-head.html