Lionel Steam Engine Box Value... and USPS claims

Hmm, strange....

At any rate, its good you got the $100 no questions asked, while the box is specifically designed for your loco, its still just a box. Whatever happened, thank your lucky stars the loco didn't come out of the box in pieces.

Yeah I specifically checked with the seller on the wrapping and he says it was in a box.  The seller acted like there was some confusion at the post office about removing it from the shipping box or something.  The brown wrapping paper had the sellers handwritten address on it and he seemed baffled about that fact.  He says they must have removed the paper from the outer box and re-attached it to the lionel box.  Seems a little fishy for sure.  I've run the engine a fair amount and looked it over quite a bit and can't find any damage.  The foam damage didn't quite make it all the way to the engine compartment.  It was isolated to the ends.  It does make me a little nervous as to what could have been jolted inside though that could take some time to show itself or may have caused premature wear on some component.  

RickO posted:

Hmm, strange....

At any rate, its good you got the $100 no questions asked, while the box is specifically designed for your loco, its still just a box. Whatever happened, thank your lucky stars the loco didn't come out of the box in pieces.

 

I agree.

c.demille posted:

Yeah I specifically checked with the seller on the wrapping and he says it was in a box.  The seller acted like there was some confusion at the post office about removing it from the shipping box or something.  

What?  This makes NO sense at all.....and I'm not sure that I'm blaming the USPS.

Why would the Post Office take it out of an otherwise (allegedly) working box....to put it in one of their boxes....unless specifically instructed to do so by the Seller?

How is there confusion?  It simply should have transpired like this: "Here is a box of Berkshire that I have secured and made safe for shipment.  Please tell me how much this will cost to ship."  End of story.  Other than the cost, there should be no room for interpretation.....unless the Seller cheaped out and tried to use one of "their" boxes b/c it was cheaper.  Either way, shame on the seller.

That the Seller divulged "that there was some confusion" leads me to believe the seller knew he was sending you a poorly boxed item.  Seller is culpable, IMHO.

I'd say you made out all right.  It's good to hear that your claim was processed so easily.

Berkshire President posted:

c.demille posted:

Yeah I specifically checked with the seller on the wrapping and he says it was in a box.  The seller acted like there was some confusion at the post office about removing it from the shipping box or something.  

 

That the Seller divulged "that there was some confusion" leads me to believe the seller knew he was sending you a poorly boxed item.  Seller is culpable, IMHO.

 

You bring up some good points.  I went back and read his emails and there are definitely some discrepancies in his story.  He first said that he delivered it to the post office in a shipping box and that they must have removed it from the box and wrapped it with paper.  I then sent him a picture of the paper with the handwritten address on it and then he replied back saying something along the lines of ... "oh I remember now, I was originally going to ship it in the paper but decided to put it in a box.  They must have removed it from the box."  This doesn't make any sense at all because they would have put the label on in his presence in order to bill him.  I agree that the seller is hiding something.  I do believe that the post office still mishandled the package though as they wouldn't have accepted it in the condition I received it in, especially with the insurance he put on it.

Reading between the line of the sellers comments, he is lying through his teeth, so to speak.  It sounds like he tried to get away with wrapping the boxed loco, in plain wrapping, not in another box, to get off cheap.  You got lucky that the USPS gave you anything at all.  Just my opinion of the transaction.

I can't believe USPS gave you $100 for a 2013 box.  Good for you they did.  I'm surprised they went with a potential or future value instead of today's value which is probably nill.  I mean one can argue that anything might be worth more in the future....or it could be worth a lot less.  Interesting story for sure.  BigRail

Anyone else think that the "hit" you'll take when trying to sell this locomotive down the road without the box will be more than $100?

These locomotives can be somewhat fragile and the lack of a box may make it hard to transport.

If the OP sells this to someone out of town, how much more difficult will it be to ship?

Oddly enough, the front pilot truck on my NKP Legacy Berk was damaged during shipping...in the factory box, in the factory mailing carton, from a seller who bent over backwards to try to ship it to me safely.

That said, I'd much rather have a damaged box then a damaged Berk.    But I probably wouldn't buy from that seller again.

Glad to hear you came out okay.  I wish I had known that.  My experience with receiving boxes shipped by USPS has been about 50-50.  I got a shipment of 12 cars from a member and the outside box had no punctures.  But inside, it was obvious that one corner had been totally caved in.  The outside box had gone back to its shape although there were creases.  However inside, all the boxes near that corner had one end of each box caved in or bent.  See pics

I had already opened the main box and figured I couldn't file a claim after that anyway.  What probably saved the cars was the new plastic molded inserts that hold the car inside the box (which I hate).  Even some of those were crushed never to return to the original shape.

I have never had a problem on something I shipped, but I use double wall cardboard boxes that are reinforced on the corners, the top, and the bottom.  I use with rigid foam (not styrofoam) inserts providing a 1 inch space around all sides.  They get glued in place with hot melt glue if needed.  Don't look pretty but it does the job.

I think you got a dishonest seller, but you hit the lottery on the USPS paying out insurance. 

Maybe the USPS is much better in that regard (I've never made a claim), but the horror stories that circulate regarding many shipping insurance experiences (possibly the other players) seem to reflect that you did really well getting $100. 

I almost wonder if they settled quickly in order to close out the event instead of possibly waiting and risking that you might determine the costly piece was severely damaged after a more thorough test.

-Dave

Its easy to figure this out. Was there postage on the brown paper?? If so it was never shipped in another box. If not then the item was damaged during shipment, the shipping box was heavily damaged and the PO remove it from the destroyed box and continued the shipment. Was there postage on the brown paper wrapping??

Tin

Even if the box is damaged, it can still be used to ship in the future. Just be forthcoming with the fact that the box was previously damaged. Obviously it will hurt the value a bit, but time is going to hurt the value of the locomotive to a much larger degree.

Sounds like your seller lied to you  ....the p.o. would have paper wrapped the shipping box and sent the whole thing to you...jim

c.demille posted:

Here's where it gets interesting... USPS requires a proof of value for the damage in order to justify the dollar amount of the claim.  How do you show proof of value for a box?  You can't replace it or buy a new one, there's no replacement part or repair estimate.  The box itself is really probably not worth that much.  However, I am of the opinion that if one was to sell two of the same engine, one with a box and one without, the one with the box could potentially sell for a significant amount more on ebay.  As time goes on, the box may even become more valuable, who knows???    

As an appraiser, a technique known as a paired sales analysis helps identify the value of a particular feature or component. The sale price (or median sale price of multiple units) of a unit WITH the box less the sale price (or median sale price of multiple units) of a unit WITHOUT the box equals an indication of the value of the box. In my experience units sell more with original packaging. $100 for the box sounds like you did pretty well, but I can't be sure unless I saw the sales. Just my two cents...

You stand a better chance of hitting the lottery than getting anywhere with the USPS.  I am with Jim on this one.

LionelTin posted:

Its easy to figure this out. Was there postage on the brown paper?? If so it was never shipped in another box. If not then the item was damaged during shipment, the shipping box was heavily damaged and the PO remove it from the destroyed box and continued the shipment. Was there postage on the brown paper wrapping??

 

Tin

I brought up this point with the seller that the postage was on the wrapping paper and that it had his handwriting on it and that the post office always puts the postage on the box while you are there so they can scan it and then charge you for the cost.  He replied and said he stands by his claim that he originally wrapped the box in paper and then decided to put it in a box.  He says that he delivered the package in a shipping box.  So if he is telling the truth the only explanation is that the shipping box was damaged along the way so the USPS removed the lionel box from the shipping box and re-applied a new shipping label.  I kind of doubt this theory though.  He was quick to offer a small refund for the trouble though and has been quite responsive.  Regardless of what happened with the seller, USPS definitely damaged the package so I'm happy with the outcome.  In essence I ended up with a scale legacy berkshire with a damaged box for $485 total.

I brought up this point with the seller that the postage was on the wrapping paper and that it had his handwriting on it and that the post office always puts the postage on the box while you are there so they can scan it and then charge you for the cost.  He replied and said he stands by his claim that he originally wrapped the box in paper and then decided to put it in a box.  He says that he delivered the package in a shipping box.  So if he is telling the truth the only explanation is that the shipping box was damaged along the way so the USPS removed the lionel box from the shipping box and re-applied a new shipping label.

I have seen hundreds of items damage for the amount the P.O. processes daily. Most of the time it's crappy packing by the shipper. The USPS will NOT remove any item from a sealed shipping carton unless the shipping carton is severely damaged and the item broke out of the carton. The USPS will try to repack the item back in its original carton esp if it has the paid postage sticker/stamp on it and seal it with a" We are sorry" tape. I am not buying the Sellers story.

Also the post office does not wrap any item in paper - too time consuming. Worst case is they place in in those fiberglass bags with the velcro wrap top and deliver it. The post office hates those wrapped paper boxes & packages, esp with the strings like they did back in the 40's and earlier. The paper rips off and the strings get caught up in the processing machine mechanisms.

c.demille posted: In essence I ended up with a scale legacy berkshire with a damaged box for $485 total.

A scale legacy bershire for $585??  If I had resort to selling my legacy berkshire for that, I'd stuff it in a mailer without the box.... and it doesn't even have whsitle steam.

Sounds like he was desperate for a sale, ebay would have brought him more money even after the 10% fee.....of course....he would have had to pack it better

Mine doesn't have whistle steam and I bought it for $625 (still a good deal)  Then I got $100 from USPS and $40 from him for the poor packing job for a total of $485

Then I think you have your answer. PRRHorseshoeCurve spelled out the process for how the PO handles damaged items. I've never heard of them removing an item from the damaged packing and reapplying postage. They place it in a damaged item bag with an apology note. The seller is not being on the up and up with their story.

Tin

Gouging the USPS for a $100.00 box isn't on the up & up either.

Casey Jones2 posted:

Gouging the USPS for a $100.00 box isn't on the up & up either.

That is your opinion and i disagree that I am gouging them. In my opinion it is easily plausible that an engine like this with a damaged box could fetch $100 less than one with a box on ebay. I've seen it myself on a smaller scale with other items. I recently sold some fastrack switches on ebay and ones with a box sold around $65 and the ones without sold for around $35 to $40. Same switches but no box and i sold several like this. That means the switch box added a value of $30 and that is just a little generic switch box and this happened just within the last month or so. So for an engine that is at least 10 times more valuable I don't see it being far fetched to value it at $100. Further it isn't my job to do a deep investigation into the packaging and damage of the box. I got it damaged and so I filed a claim.  Regardless of packaging, they obviously damaged it. Even with just paper over the box it would have been fine if they didn't drop it or smash it in.

Regardless of packaging, they obviously damaged it. Even with just paper over the box it would have been fine if they didn't drop it or smash it in.

As far as I know, all shipping insurance requires that the item be properly packaged. That means the packing has be able to withstand some rough handing, which includes being dropped.

Sounds like you were extremely lucky to have gotten any money out of the US Postal Service.

Casey Jones2 posted:

Gouging the USPS for a $100.00 box isn't on the up & up either.

I don't think that's remotely fair.  At all.  The buyer/OP did nothing wrong....and would probably have rather had everything arrive in one piece.

The fair market value of the model has clearly been decreased as a result of the box being damaged.  Personally, I think the value drop will be more than a C note....and the item will take longer to sell, when that day comes.

IMHO, all blame lies with the seller on this one.  Buyer did NOTHING wrong and went out of his way to find a reasonable solution.

Yes but even if this was in the original lionel shipper box it would have helped reduce the damage but it would have still sustained damage so I still think they are liable. That rigid foam can take a lot of abuse. Look how deep the foam was penetrated from the impact.  The lionel box looks worse but probably would have fared a lot better in a cardboard shipper.

Bottom line is, it was NOT shipped in the shipping carton.

The loco box is not desighed for shipping, its like card stock when compared to the corrugated shipper which is double or triple the thickness. The two together are even stronger.

The original shipping carton does not totally eliminate the risk, but it reduces it substantially.

How many thousands of insured packages get shipped everyday safely without a claim?

 Most ,provided they're packed correctly. I think USPS can cover the $100 this time, if they can't, they should take it up with the seller.

Not just how many insured packages get delivered without issue...

How many POORLY PACKED packages get delivered without issue?

Pretty much just about all of 'em too.

Matt Kirsch posted:

 

How many POORLY PACKED packages get delivered without issue?

Pretty much just about all of 'em too.

Boy, is that ever true.  I don't know what some people are thinking with the way they pack.  It's not just individuals, either:  Big corporations too.

Hi I caN TELL YOU THIS ABOUT usps I HAVE HAD ISSUES with usps and there policy as I know because I went threw it is the maximum they will pay for any damage is only $100.00, anything over  that amount they will be denied you and you will never win, I have personal friends that work for usps that is how I know how this all works, you did well to get $100.00. other wise they would have rejected the claim

Alan

The seller should have been pressed way more for both a clear explanation of how it was packed and then a discount to cover the damage due to his dismal packing. 

Usps shouldn't take the hit on this one. Damage to the foam isn't a valid case when there is nothing but the thin retail skin of cardstock protecting it.

graz posted:

usps shouldn't take the hit on this one. Damage to the foam isn't a valid case when there is nothing but the thin retail skin of cardstock protecting it.

 

Not if USPS accepted the package as it was packed.....which they did.

 

Usps shouldn't take the hit on this one. Damage to the foam isn't a valid case when there is nothing but the thin retail skin of cardstock protecting it.

 

I disagree. I can only imagine what they had to have done to cause that damage and I would bet a mailing box would not have saved it. Maybe reduce the damage but not save it.  Every corner of the foam was smashed in.  This foam is pretty tough.   It's obvious they weren't being careful. Seriously they had to throw this box or drop it.  The box is ripped and smashed all over too which although it's only thick card stock, it tells me it was poorly handled.

Having once worked for a company that sent a lot of heavy items via common carriers, I can add that there are detailed specifications for ensuring packages arrive safely.  For example, I understood that there was a key "drop test" that UPS has which is to drop the package from 4 feet on a corner of the box.  That's the standard their machinery and processes are calibrated to.  I cannot find this on-line to confirm the accuracy - but I can say that one of the key things we did when launching a new product was a to ship it to a few trusted customers/distributors and have them ship it back to us to see how it fared in transit.  Often packing changes were required.

I understood that there was a key "drop test" that UPS has which is to drop the package from 4 feet on a corner of the box.

The video "The making of the scale Hudson" shows Lionel conducting a drop test in one of the scenes.

Assuming this was shipped only in the Lionel box (and it sure sounds like the seller was not truthful), I share the view that the USPS is not at fault. The Lionel box was the shipping carton, and insurance does not claim to protect shipping cartons. Rather, it covers the inner contents (in this case, the engine), which apparently were not damaged. I'm not defending the Post Office across the board (though I've only had good experiences with them), but I don't see why they should be held responsible given what actually happened here.