Major Flaw in Lionel's new Pre Ordering system.

Yep. You could see this issue coming a mile away. Lionel is NOTORIOUS for incorrect or flat out fantasy catalog art work. So now they expect their customers to just trust that they will get it right? How many wheels will actually be on the tenders of those Heavy Mikes? There are several other questions that others have asked as well.

One of my favorite examples is the way they keep depicting diesels with scale fixed pilots. These may not be made to order, but it is an example of the catalogs being less than factual. That is kind of a Lionel tradition so it is nothing new. The problem comes when you ask your customers to pre-order and commit to something that may or may not be misrepresented.

I suppose if you want something you go ahead and pre-order and when it arrives I would hope you have the option to send it back if it isn't what you thought you were going to get.

[RANT]

Or you remember that these are just toys and be happy to get your hands on one.  If you rather it be different (paint or wheels or pilots) then practice your modeling skills like the many thousands before you and modify them.  Or just build your own.  That's what my grandpa used to do with his Lionel trains.  I'm getting tired of many of today complaining because they can't get what they want when they want.  That's just lazy.  Lionel has made it clear that the photos in the catalogs are not a guarantee of what the final product will be, this is a standard practice in every field, it's not only a Lionel thing.  You either accept that and order the item, or don't and walk away.  Stop your belly aching people.  Life is way too short to waste time crying over the details.  Go play with your trains and be happy you live in a time where you can have such nice things.  IMHO, the only flaw I see in Lionel's new pre order system is lack of being able to mute cry babies.

[/RANT]

Doesn't Lionel state that the released item may differ from the catalog illustration anyway? (Don't all manufacturers have this disclaimer?)

C.W. I believe they do and that's fine if dealers will order for stock and customers have a chance to see them before purchasing.

With build-to-order it is much more important for the manufacturer to accurately describe the final product beforehand, especially when it is very expensive.

I am very amused by this post.

You have every right to your opinion of course. If you are ok with pre-ordering products that cost thousands of dollars site unseen based on catalog artwork that may or may not represent the actual product, then that is your prerogative. I'm sure many feel that is perfectly acceptable. I'm not going to go on a rant and complain about people with your viewpoint, so why do you feel compelled to call people cry babies that have a legitimate concern about this new process?

If you don't like reading posts from people that you don't agree with, then perhaps you shouldn't be spending time on a public forum with a bunch of cry babies in the first place? Just a thought...

At least put up an Avatar if you have the guts to rant and attack people.

Andrew

I would want to know/see exactly what I am paying for.  If I am going to spend a thousand plus on an item it darn well better be what your showing/telling me it will be.

I'm getting tired of many of today complaining because they can't get what they want when they want.  That's just lazy.

REALLY?!?!?!

What's your favorite piece?  Let's say it's the new Big Boy or a PRR T1.  What if Lionel announced they just cancelled these projects and instead were making the next 10 years worth of items for RRs or pieces you had NO interest in?

LAZY?!?!?! Name calling isn't what this forum is about.

The Cab-forwards are not build-to-order models, so I'm afraid that several of you have wasted one of your annual allowance of rants. 

Does anyone remember what the Chevy Volt looked like at the auto shows?  What they finally produced was a farfarfar cry from what they tantalized everyone with initially.  Just goes to show, Lionel is not the only one who may not produce what we anticipate or want.

Might be worth working your way up the food chain and asking someone like Mike Reagan your question.  May or may not get a satisfactory answer, given the vagaries of the current situation (low volumes; long lead times; manufacturing not fully under the control of the importer). 

Alternatively, recognizing the uncertainties of design and production these days, wait until the loco is released.  Some dealer,  somewhere will have one if you still want it.  None of these importers is going to guarantee certain specific details on these locos in advance.  Design changes and manufacturing uncertainties make these sort of guarantees impossible is my guess.  Just the reality of circumstances.  Disappointing, but perhaps unavoidable.

Yeah but they weren't selling them at the auto shows. People bought what the dealer had in the showroom.

Well you can pick up your Cab Forward in the Lionel Showroom. I like the Orange one.

If it bothers you don't preorder..But don't cry when your not able to get what you wanted.

If that's the case, you, and others who may share your view, have only one choice:  You will definitely have to wait until an item as actually released and on your local dealer's shelf before you pull out your wallet.  There truly is no other option available to you.

Other potential buyers who are not quite as concerned, but who still are prone to engaging in a bit of rivet counting related to a specific model, have a couple of choices.  They can also wait until the actual production appears, of course, and hope that they can find the item if it suits them.  Or, they can go ahead an place a preorder with their favorite dealer and keep their fingers crossed that what they want is what they get.

The rest of us--probably a significant majority--are a good bit easier to please and a whole lot less fussy about whether a detail or two (or even more) on a model is absolutely "correct."  We see something that appeals to us--even as a never-to-be-trusted-with-100%-certainty catalog depiction--and by golly we're going to go for it!  We place our preorder, wait a few months or years, and delight like a kid on Christmas morning when the thing actually appears. 

Norton has a point.

I decided to buy a cab forward. Wouldn't it be nice to see illustrations of all the offerings?

Of course, we do not live in a perfect world and the illustrations could change.

But, its hard to decide when some illustrations are lacking .

I presume the locos without illustrations are the same as the one with illustrations, except a different number.

However, I do  not know that.

I am ready make a pre-order and will go with what is illustrated, but it would be nice to see all the illustrations.

HINT: Lionel, provide illustrations for all the cab forward locos.

At the end of the day, I will decide on what is given to us, because I want a cab forward.

Exactly. 

I agree with this opinion also. Sure, I may NOT get that "super discounted price", but I can see it, touch it, and actually have my hobby shop DEMONSTRATE the model for me. Then, and ONLY then, am I satisfied with a high end, VERY expensive locomotive model.

I stand corrected. Thank you Nicole. I mistook the built to order symbol on the next page as applying to the Cab Forwards as well. 

I will stand behind my opinion of Lionel's new Pre Order Policy as a bad idea if they can't tell me ahead of time what I am buying.

Have I just used my second rant?

Pete

Your kidding Norton! Lionel is not putting out prototype models!

Let me see if I have this right.

1. You look at a car in a brochure and you love the color red it comes in.
2. You order it sight unseen since it's built to order and the only representation is in the catalog
3. It gets delivered and it's really orange, not red
4. You're HAPPY since you're not one of those "cry babies"?

Did I follow your logic correctly?

It gets harder too if the dealer also requires a non-refundable deposit, so a lot more pressure on you to hope that it is produced to your satisfacation. If the manufacturer is known for accurate depictions then is this not an issue, then you can be trusting.

Also, you have to keep in mind that build-to-order doesn't always mean just because you do it will be produced. If enough don't of a particaulr model or roadname, it won't meet minimum thresholds and it won't be made. BTO allows for quicker judgements on what will be made and how much.

Peter

That's correct, and exactly what I do....saves me the grief and aggravation.  I have been fortunate to find what I have wanted at good prices...maybe not the best but good.  I personally do not need to be first in line to get an item...I'm ok with waiting.  And as HW stated,I want to see it,touch it and then make my decision.

I wonder, will any dealers order any of the build-to-order pieces for store inventory, or will they order just enough to fulfill preorders?

Will the new large 86' box cars come with real or dummy ETD like the car carriers did.  That was a disappointment.  Mike R said at a Lionel Open House 2012 that won't happen again?  OK

Buzz

Ahhh that is a good question.

In other words, keep your mouth shut, don't tell the importers/manufacturers what improvements could be done or perceived shortcomings you find on their offerings that you'd normally want to spend your hard-earned money on.

Funny, the hobby was like that for quite a long time, and the result was pretty much nothing but constant re-hashes of the same Geeps, boxcars, tank cars & steam engines that popped out from recycled postwar tooling and very little of anything really new, scale-detailed or otherwise.

In other words:  It was stagnant.

I think the point that this all hinges on is whether or not an item can be returned because it isn't what the customer wants. What about sound and smoke? Things that can't be represented in the catalog? Perhaps Mike should get those video previews up before the pre-order period expires? That would help a lot of people decide.

I am assuming that reputable dealers will let you test the item when you pick it up and issue a refund of any deposits (if there are any) if it isn't to your liking? I haven't pre-ordered a big item in a while. I usually purchase off the shelf from Mercer Jct. or Stockyard Express. Both of those fine stores let me see/hear/smell prior to purchase. Just wondering if the pre-order process changes that at all?

I suspect there are many dealers who will speculate and order extras. More than a few of these engines will likely appreciate over the near term. Vision Hudson prices cooled within a few months of release but are now are selling for over list. No doubt the Vision Big Boy will do likewise.

Pete

I can allow someone to switch a version at some point as long as I have extra stock before they do ship it. I will work with a customer as best I can to make him happy. We know that only two pictures exsist for the AC-12's and when we get new ones we will post them instead of the same ones that we did.

I most definitely disagree with that assumption!  You order it, you purchase it unless it proves to be operationally or cosmetically defective (out of the box and at the dealer's establishment).

My personal feeling is that customers should not--ever--assume they can stick a dealer with a pre-ordered product simply because they "don't like it" for some reason or another.  I would certainly urge any dealer who finds a customer doing that to him to cut the dude off 100% from future purchases.

Yes, most reputable dealers will certainly let you test run stuff when you buy it.  My dealer pretty much insists on doing so because he stands 100% behind the stuff he sells.

FYI, for more info on the upcoming AC-12. Lionel just posted some info that might help on their blog. Just google "Lionel LLC Wordpress".  

Supposedly they are already in production and due July.

What the!? That's messed up, dude.

quote:

I most definitely disagree with that assumption!  You order it, you purchase it unless it proves to be operationally or cosmetically defective (out of the box and at the dealer's establishment).

So then what happens?
Does the customer get another piece, or does he/she miss out on the long anticipated item?

Is the dealer stuck with defective piece (to be repaired by Lionel and put out for sale)?

Why can Sunset sell a high end steam engine made out of pure brass and with TMMC/smoke and be as accurate as possible for about $1900 and still get it right, mind you this is a very small company.

Lionel and MTH, bigger companies, should be able to do the same. Lionel must be clear about what our $2000 will get us, correct sounds and pilot and scale details? they have till May 10 to tell us, I expect that from them...My opinion respecting others as they respect mine.

I think something that gets missed here is that Lionel is the one loosing the sale.  

Would Lionel sell more if the catalog listings were more accurate?  Yes.  Lionel would also pickup sales in the long end, because people would feel more confident placing an order in the future.

With a very few exceptions, I quit pre-ordering without knowing what I'm getting.    

I like this catalog, but the only thing I'm willing to pre order is the Wabash E8.  I've wanted a scale Wabash E unit for years.  I expect the E8 to be fairly accurate.  If it isn't, it will probably be my last Lionel pre-order.  

There are very few things that don't show up pre owned, especially things that were popular.  

I agree with Norton, and that both for the customer and Lionel's sake.  Take it or leave it doesn't work in the long run. 

I'll tell EXACTLY how & why Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot gets their products as correctly accurate as possible, given the price of their models:

The owner, Scott Mann ACTIVELY solicits technical advice & guidance from many, many, many sources of expert modelers! He also has been willing, and able to make some serious "last minuet" changes to a run of models, when it has been pointed that a pre-production sample model was WRONG.  

Make sure it's apples to apples comparison.  That's the advantage of being a smaller company.  3rd Rail can be more responsive to customer suggestions.  They produce probably less than 30 types of engines and rolling stock a year versus the hundreds or even thousands that Lionel produces.  For 3rd Rail, a loss of a sale has a bigger financial impact than it would to Lionel and thus has to not only be accurate but proactive getting things right the first time.   Plus, they don't have the technological advantage in their engines and thus must make it up with more "accurate" details.  Love their engines, though.

He also spends about half his life (or more) looking over the shoulders of the people making the stuff, at their offshore location.  Gotta admire a fellow who is willing to do that!

But folks need to understand that comparing 3rd Rail to Lionel, or MTH, or Atlas, or Bachmann, is pretty much an apples-and-oranges comparison.  Scott has carved out a niche for himself that he is able to effectively oversee and manage on pretty much a one-to-one basis (and at considerable personal sacrifice).  The other significantly larger firms, handling many diverse products in multiple product lines, simply could not afford to do that sort of thing (unless you want your $2,000 engine to cost about $2,800 or more).