@Will Ebbert posted:As much as I like Lionel, I really hope another company takes over MTH. The competition drives innovation in the hobby.
To put it another way, prevents one near-monopoly company from purveying poorly done crap ...
Just saw this on Facebook .wow...can't believe it...bought my first mth rail king challenger in 96.... Didn't know of mth back then .but he was putting a whopping on Lionel's on the market and made Lionel drop there prices to be competitive to mth....hope somebody buys him out...or where toast in replacement parts and Lionel marking there prices backup...😡
I guess Covid-19 is no longer a concern.
I hope that we can get our trains fixed before our time comes for the big roundhouse in the sky, and the beat goes on lotty dotty dee...
@TexasSP posted:Hardly an accurate statement. DCC is a standard protocol. Modern versions do everything DCS and Legacy does and then some. The interfaces have also become very user friendly and you can mix and match.
The first systems were also about 30 years ago not 40.
It's obvious you have no current DCC experience. Talk to the 2 rail guys and they can show you how far DCC has come. Also the base of Legacy which is TMCC is almost 30 years old as well.
- You shouldn't have to WORRY about having a DEAD loco --because the PROPRIETARY electronics to repair it are no longer available, or or are too EXPENSIVE.
- There is already a video on Youtube -- showing an MTH O gauge DCS to DCC conversion ( https://youtu.be/6OA5sOg5EFo )
- Bonus 1: Once you have DCC, you are no longer dependent on any ONE manufacturer and whatever high prices they choose to charge.
- You now have MANY DCC manufacturers from which to choose.
- Bonus 2: Automatic Control capability: I'm not sure anyone in this group is interested, but with an NCE DCC "Mini-Panel" (a simple, programmable automatic train controller, $49 list price), you can do fun and simple AUTOMATIC CONTROL scenarios.
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- The AutoControls.org 3-Rail O-gauge DCC Youtube playlist ( https://www.youtube.com/playli...p3iUAkOo_cdp5mNDsoFl ) shows several automatic control demonstrations done in 3-rail O gauge, using MTH Proto-3 locos, controlled by the NCE Mini-Panel.
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Unless an investor like a Richard Kughn or Neil Young is there to step in, it is all over and it's like losing of an old friend. MTH is a small business created by a visionary entrepreneur and like so many such organizations when that leader leaves, for what ever reason, that organization usually is no longer viable. I suspect that Mike has looked at the demographics and sees that the market is shrinking as would potential investors. Sadly trains, to younger generations, are a forgotten form of transportation and the models of them only take up valuable space. Their world is Virtual Reality and not the 3 dimensional things that we enjoy and remember. I have been a MTH fan since the first UP Challenger with PS1 and will be sad to see it all go away, but the same can be said for K-line and Weaver's neat trains. I quess that I'm just getting old.
@Tinplate Art posted:SB1-48: Your take above is rather too generally simplistic and relies on assumptive cliches about both the economics and enthusiast preferences. Three rail trains are not being relegated to the dust bin of history anytime soon!
Agreed, given that the 2-rail alternative doesn't work for space challenged operators who also like big locomotives.
This is a shocker indeed ! I'm with GunRunner John.
This does not bode well for the long term life of MTH product, with far more frequent problems with complex products dependent on electronic components. Broken down trains may become throw away trains! Unlike the purely mechanical trains that can be fixed with simple tools. I agree as well, I'm buying nothing from MTH that has an engine in it !
Parts availability, repairs and off warranty service for historic product may become a nightmare.
Yikes! Kyle
@jonnyspeed posted:True, but DCC is a 40 year old technology that is anything but user friendly.
TexasSP
Hardly an accurate statement. DCC is a standard protocol. Modern versions do everything DCS and Legacy does and then some. The interfaces have also become very user friendly and you can mix and match.
The first systems were also about 30 years ago not 40.
It's obvious you have no current DCC experience. Talk to the 2 rail guys and they can show you how far DCC has come. Also the base of Legacy which is TMCC is almost 30 years old as well.
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Well said and 100% accurate. Decoder Pro is just as easy to use for me as it is scrolling through the DCS menus. And it’s FREE!
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Let's not overstate the case. You did forget that you also need the TMCC/Legacy command system to connect to the other end of that cable! All DCS does is create the TMCC/Legacy commands to send over to the Lionel command system. Other PC based applications also do the same thing, think e-Train.
Oh I know that's how it works. I was assuming that others would as well, but I should have included that information, for those unfamiliar with how the system works.
@RSJB18 posted:I work in Facilities Management at a major university in New York. Part of my time is spent dealing with building management systems that control HVAC, lighting, security, etc.
Several years ago, the controls industry realized that they needed standardization if they were going to survive.Hello BAC-NET. The platform allows all mfr's equipment to be controlled by any system out there that's BAC-net compatible.
My point is that a universal control system that works across all platforms is long overdue in model trains. This could be the opportunity for an enterprising engineer to develop that system.......
Thoughts?
Airwire BPRC DCC. Looks like an opportunity for some outfit to step up and offer a package at a reasonable (I laugh)price.
@Kyle Miller posted:This is a shocker indeed ! I'm with GunRunner John.
This does not bode well for the long term life of MTH product, with far more frequent problems with complex products dependent on electronic components. Broken down trains may become throw away trains! Unlike the purely mechanical trains that can be fixed with simple tools. I agree as well, I'm buying nothing from MTH that has an engine in it !
Parts availability, repairs and off warranty service for historic product may become a nightmare.
Yikes! Kyle
Mechanically the stuff is just as robust if not more so than old all mechanical trains. If the electronics die and you don't want to convert to some other kind of command control (TMCC or DCC) you can stick a standard reverse unit from Dallee in, or if you want forward only a bridge rectifier, and be on your way.
Thanks Lou, true enough - I'm running TMCC and Legacy 
We saw an updated announcement about an MTH tech team taking on support and development of DCS. For me, removes my concern for failing electronics. I'm sure there are a number of original DCS developers ready to take this on. What I expect I will miss are products produced in my favorite road names and colors. Lionel is not very diverse in this area. 
If you model SP, UP, NYC, PRR, no problem for you. 
Okay a friend forward this to me, and I'm sure a lot of you have gotten it.
Received this e-mail from Muffin's Trains, good news if it holds up.
DCS/Proto-Sound Lives On
June 9, 2020 - With the scheduled closing of M.T.H. Electric Trains next year, support for the DCS Digital Command System and the Proto-Sound 3.0 onboard locomotive systems will continue through a new independent company headed up by current M.T.H. staff once direct M.T.H. support for the systems concludes on June 1, 2021.
The new tech company will continue to manufacture and provide support including any necessary software updates to the DCS hardware or DCS WiFi App. In fact, new and exciting product ideas are currently under development.
The DCS System controls any Proto-Sound 2.0 and later equipped locomotives and first debuted 18 years ago. It has been an integral part of the M.T.H. product line family since its inception and its continuation beyond the closing of M.T.H. is an important part of the transition envisioned by retiring M.T.H. president Mike Wolf.
As the retirement transition process moves forward, more details about the new company's creation and ongoing development of M.T.H.'s technology packages will be announced. Stay tuned.
To me that is good news to you who have the MTH engines. I'm more interested in seeing if they or someone else is going to continue the rolling stock.
I would say that that's good news, but its in Comic Sans, so terrible news 0/10
Yes dcc is the standard in HO and is also old tech just as tmcc is old tech. Their is also railpro and it is two way communication like dcs and is more user friendly like dcs. They also have battery capability and decoders for o scale. Esu has a very nice remote that uses a friendly phone type interface screen with four hard assignable buttons and a dial type wheel for speed control. Almost all dcc decoder manufacturers have boards designed for o guage trains. Soundtraxxs and esu have them and as mentioned railpro does also.
The problem is the three rail track and the way the wheels pick up track power. Yes most mth preimer engines have the 3-2 capability and you can easily swap the wheel sets for scale two rail track if preferred. This is gets very costly to the average ogauge operator to convert to dcc if you have lots of mth engines. Then thiers railking stuff. There is no way of making it two rail compatible for dcc that I am aware of easily. When I say two rail dcc compatible I am talking about isolating the engines wheel sets for track polarity. Premier engines have that covered.
Plus dcs was very user friendly more so than dcc. No CV's to change and no speed matching to do when running multiple locos together and the two way communication was ahead of its time when introduced. Dcs still has a lot left on the table as far as operation goes. Their is so much dcs with its two way communication could have done and still can be done by its new owners.
I like the size and the heft of o guage trains and to me they are easier to work on than HO or N. HO trains as well detailed and prototypicaly accurate as they are seem like if and when an engine breaks it becomes throwaway or at best a shelf queen. So I hold out optimism that some one will buy the company and continue to build on what mike started. He makes a lot of models lionel has yet to even make or touch. That said if no new mth product is made at least it seems dcs will still live on some how. So in the emordal words of sheldon cooper. It's O guage or no guage for me thanks.
@Hudson J1e posted:TexasSP
Hardly an accurate statement. DCC is a standard protocol. Modern versions do everything DCS and Legacy does and then some. The interfaces have also become very user friendly and you can mix and match.
The first systems were also about 30 years ago not 40.
It's obvious you have no current DCC experience. Talk to the 2 rail guys and they can show you how far DCC has come. Also the base of Legacy which is TMCC is almost 30 years old as well.
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Well said and 100% accurate. Decoder Pro is just as easy to use for me as it is scrolling through the DCS menus. And it’s FREE!
I just watched the video, and I was impressed. My concern with the video is that it doesn’t really compare DCS to DCC. It compares the DCC on the DCS decoder being run on a DCC system. How does pure DCC, running on a pourers DCC system compare to a DCS loco in DCS running off a TIU. That would be a fair comparison.
The other issue I have is that it is running on 2 rail, while DCS was designed for 3 rail as a vast majority of layouts are in O-scale. I would love to see a true comparison DCS 3 rail v. DCC 3 rail. If someone has a video like that, I would love to see it. Honestly, I would love to learn more.
What I am truly thinking (hoping) is that DCS becomes a 3 rail standard. There must be a reason to stick with DCS and spin it off as a separate entity. Or, at least, a vision of what it can become. I am not saying that DCS can or will survive in the long run, and maybe DCC will ultimately win out. Who knows? Mike has a vision, and we will looking forward to new announcements to see where that vision is taking DCS.
Sad to hear for many reasons. Most of my motive power is MTH. Lionel only makes a few engines in my road name. Hope someone buys them and keeps it going.
Andy
@Oman posted:We saw an updated announcement about an MTH tech team taking on support and development of DCS. For me, removes my concern for failing electronics. I'm sure there are a number of original DCS developers ready to take this on. What I expect I will miss are products produced in my favorite road names and colors. Lionel is not very diverse in this area.
I saw that as well. I agree it makes me feel better about my investment in DCS TIU and 13 engines. I do have 2 Legacy engines and a TMCC base and controller, so I can expand there if there isn't anything DCS available that I want in the future.
I still have the first “J” and the first NYC Hudson Mike/MTH released and his book about MTH signed by him when he was at Catoctin Mountain Trains in Thurmont MD nice guy and really great products. He will be missed! I do have a question about the PRR P5a Shells that have the Zinc Rot issue, will they still be replaced? Got an email from Midge that my name is on the list but no other information?
Glad to hear and good for him, he’s earned it and let the man retire in peace.
On a positive note, MTH trains are compatible with Lionel rolling stock and on modern Fastrack.
The company could be handed off to someone new, like how Horizon Hobbies operates ATHEARN.
Andrew
This is always my fear when a notable company is run/owned by one person. Why not create a corp or sell to a capital firm but keep the branding one spent decades building? Lionel is owned by a capital firm.
@falconservice posted:The company could be handed off to someone new, like how Horizon Hobbies operates ATHEARN.
Andrew
@Mike W. posted:This is always my fear when a notable company is run/owned by one person. Why not create a corp or sell to a capital firm but keep the branding one spent decades building? Lionel is owned by a capital firm.
It's all up to Mike as to what he's going to do. All the speculation from outsiders in the world isn't going to change that.
Rusty
Whatever entity takes over MTH should take a good hard look at why Lionel brought out LC with the substantial established TMCC/Legacy user base.
@justin p posted:Sad to see this happen, I can already hear Lionel the Lions stomach growling, they're gonna pounce on MTH and buy a lot/ or at least any tooling they can get their paws on.
Really? Can you give me 1 good reason why Lionel would even entertain any thought of buying MTH?
Their number one competitor just announce that they are going to fold. Lionel's best move is to sit back light a victory cigar and pour themselves a large drink and slap each other on the back. Declare victory without having fired a shot.
@justin p posted:Sad to see this happen, I can already hear Lionel the Lions stomach growling, they're gonna pounce on MTH and buy a lot/ or at least any tooling they can get their paws on.
The people at Lionel are still working the old Weaver Models line into the new LionScale.
They have their hands full with that operation.
Andrew
@joseywales posted:Just saw this on Facebook .wow...can't believe it...bought my first mth rail king challenger in 96.... Didn't know of mth back then .but he was putting a whopping on Lionel's on the market and made Lionel drop there prices to be competitive to mth....hope somebody buys him out...or where toast in replacement parts and Lionel marking there prices backup...😡
Lionel's prices are high now. They raise them every year.
I haven't read the whole thread but my sympathies are with the employees. I am sure Mike was amply rewarded for his efforts during his tenure as owner of the company and the employees made that possible. His focus now should be on the employees and their continued employment. A sale of the company to the employees would be possible. It would be a matter left to the lawyers but it has been done before. If I remember correctly the C&NW was an employee buyout and it seems to have worked. If the employees buy the company and obviously continue operations, everyone wins.
Just a thought.
Ed
@feet posted:Lionel's prices are high now. They raise them every year.
One of the reaons I have not been ordering like I used to, retired now and the old discreationary income is not what it was. well it was a great ride, I can honestly say Mike Wolf rocked the train world big time. I can see him now going to sea in Tony's L,s big boat along with Dan Marino.
I thank you for the ride Mike.
John Pignatelli
@Ed Kelly posted:I haven't read the whole thread but my sympathies are with the employees. I am sure Mike was amply rewarded for his efforts during his tenure as owner of the company and the employees made that possible. His focus now should be on the employees and their continued employment. A sale of the company to the employees would be possible. It would be a matter left to the lawyers but it has been done before. If I remember correctly the C&NW was an employee buyout and it seems to have worked. If the employees buy the company and obviously continue operations, everyone wins.
Just a thought.
Ed
I'm sure Mike Wolf is checking the OGR board for disposition advice hourly...
The C&NW had a heck of a lot more employees to spread the risk and "employee owned" lasted 13 years until the C&NW Corporation was formed in 1985.
Rusty
@Hudson J1e posted:Also the base of Legacy which is TMCC is almost 30 years old as well.
The first mass produced cars were the Model-T, but that doesn't mean they've come a long way and are greatly improved. 
@Oscale_Trains_Lover_ posted:I have very fond memories at the Aberdeen Hobby Shop. That was my LHS for many years. I met Mike there in 2003-ish when he was showing off the new Premier GG-1s. Mike signed a MTH hat for me, which I still have to this day. I miss the era when Marvin and Arlene were running the store. It's not the same without them.
I don't know if you knew John, the repair and upgrade specialist for them. He left after Arlene sold the business and now has a small hobby shop out of his place in Hazlet, NJ.
I surely have a lot memories from that store. After I received my first MTH set which was a Santa Fe F3 freight set and seeing MTH products on I Love Toy Trains including the Columbia, MD HQ showroom layout, I quickly fell in love with that brand. Sad to see the original owners of The Hobby Shop go and now MTH
What is LC?
@Miles W. Rich posted:What is LC?
Lion Chief. A control system Lionel is using for their starter sets.
Most of my engines are mth most of the time it 6 months to get a train
repaired cant think how long it will take now if it can even be do anymore
@Miles W. Rich posted:What is LC?
Lion Chief? I'm just guessing.
Thank you Mike for turning a passion into a business that lifted up everyone in the hobby. Best wishes on your new endeavors!
As far as rampant speculation goes, if I had a nickel for every theory on this I could buy more trains.
Seriously, who knows what will happen?
If I were to wager on meaningless conjecture ...
- No one will buy the company whole when they can pick the bits off the bones at a discount later. Same reason my local hobby shop closed instead of being sold. Nobody wanted "the business", just a few pieces of it and the inventory. --Negotiations for some of those bits have likely already happened. -- Wild guess makes me think someone in Germany will buy the European line. -- Chinese will sit on as much tooling as possible, then turn it into cheaper knock off junk versions of what were once good products. -- Harley Davidson will still struggle with long term declining sales trends on shifting generational turnover. Oh, and model train manufacturers will too. Those of us still around when the current trend arc comes to an end will be able to score a lot of amazing prototypes on the secondary market that will never be made again. -- In the end nobody really cares what I think about it.-- Finally, We will all be grateful that we were part of the Second Great Golden Age of O Scale Model Railroading. -- We're going to miss it when it's gone.
Till then, I'm just going to enjoy the holybajeezus out of my train collection.
Good luck Mike. Thanks.
