MTH App and WTIU concerns

Tim, I don’t think you are the only one interested in the status.  Hopefully when people start getting the WTIU there will be an update of the status of the app.  It’s a shame that they don’t just open up the API on the WTIU so we can build something open source.  Being in enterprise software myself, I wouldn’t expect much out of a r&d team of 1 or 2 people…

-chris

I can only echo your question.  It is unfortunate when legitimate questions get derailed by childish bickering.  The current version of the MTH app has a number of annoying glitches when run on the latest Apple iOS, and it would be helpful, both from a practical, operational perspective, and from a confidence perspective, to understand what the plan is, with some specificity.  Hopefully MTH will come here and address it.

The app been glitchy since day one, not just with the latest version of IOS.  I stop using it years ago because of the glitches, it's only a backup in case my remote fails.

Like the OP, I am an app guy.  My remote is my backup.  To me neither is perfect so for now, it's pick your poison.

I also have similar concerns.  I've hung my hat on MTH and DCS but the restructuring and the lack of information on what is coming concerns me and has me re-thinking that decision.  The worst thing software developers can do is develop in a vacuum.  Is there a beta program for DCS?  I've asked before with no success in finding out.  I work for a software company and am very familiar with testing procedures.  I'd be very happy to help test and provide feedback but each time I ask, nothing.

I have seen no information regarding what is coming on the app front.  Yea, the WTIU is due soon and I would imagine an app update will be needed but if the app is backward compatible (and I REALLY hope it is) there is no need to tie its release to the new hardware.  Get it out there!  If there are licensing changes, demo licenses that time out in 30 days or so would work.  Of course if the old app doesn't work with the new hardware it should be released before or at the same time.

I would also think there will be a charge for the new "2.0" app.  I know this is likely a sore subject for some but think about it, we all paid ~$25 years ago for it.  Where is the money coming from for continued development?  Personally, I'd be ok with a reasonable yearly subscription fee to keep development going with the expectation that we don't have to live just OK.

[Edit]
Open source is another good idea.  Some different challenges but a great way to increase the developer base.  Wouldn't it be a great idea to let the folks that use the software help develop it? 

Tony

If they won't make a TIU any more (leaving those who don't have one at the mercy of price gougers), the least they can do is upgrade the app or make it open source for those who are stuck with waiting for the WTIU as the only alternative.

John

Just saw in an e-mail ad from Mr. Muffins that WTIU is not scheduled for delivery in Apr 2024, undergoing testing now.

What a joke - both Lionel and MTH are acting like they are building launch systems to rockets going to mars.  

• What scares me about anything electronic coming out of MTH, either engines or the WTIU is where’s the support?  There is no support,  no customer service no warranty repair.  They can’t ever get caboose pickup rollers correct.  Buyer beware.  

Come on you have a year from manufacture date for warranty claims. (Yes this is sarcasm).  Trick with buying MTH stuff is buying it from a good dealer who will have your back.  I just have a feeling that the wtiu / app will be a poor experience despite all the time they have had.

I have had the tiu and wiu for a while now. did not use it much. I gave the app another try after watching seans video about it. for me at least it STILL SUCKS. yes I agree with sean that getting to all the engine features is way easier than the remote.

that being said I have a lot of new lionel legacy steam and the thought of the app controlling everything seemed like it would be nice.

so I tested a legacy steamer and at first it ran great. all the various controll screens and buttons mostly worked. then the engine would act up and pressing any button on the screen would do nothing. so after this occurred it would need to be reset like using 0 on the legacy remote.then I would all go back to normal.this was so annoying I gave up.

I am glad I stuck with and acquired more remotes. I think the bugs in the app is going to frustrate people who only have that option with the wtiu.

thats just my opinion here. it may be ok for others. I will stick to my remotes for the foreseeable future.

The apps from MTH and Lionel haven't been updated in a long time, certainly makes me wary of trusting that in the future they'll keep them up to date!

Both firms have gotten to hi tech for me with running the trains. I’ve got TMCC and Legacy and that’s as far as I am going. If they fail I’ll just go conventional. Heck, I can’t even get decent wifi for my home usage now, so I’m certainly not going to add more frustration trying to play with the trains. Thinking about the future is great but don’t forget about the present as both have currently done.

I don't think anyone, including Toyota and General Motors expected the  supply chain and staffing issues that have plagued many industries during the last three plus years.   But large companies can cope better than those in our hobby.  I doubt either company has more than 2-3 (or fewer) people working on the new products and it appears that obsolescence of existing parts has played a role in the delays in development of the new products and inability to continue production of existing products. The sad fact is that getting depressed or grousing about these realities won't speed things up.  Make do and enjoy the day.

@Landsteiner posted:

I don't think anyone, including Toyota and General Motors expected the  supply chain and staffing issues that have plagued many industries during the last three plus years. 

Or that it would be man made.

John

I am really amazed that these systems are as complex that they require such obscure components or should I say long obsolete components.   It’s not a supply chain issues if there are no remaining sources for your obsolete components, you need to go back to the drawing board.

@ChrisFromCle posted:

I am really amazed that these systems are as complex that they require such obscure components or should I say long obsolete components.   It’s not a supply chain issues if there are no remaining sources for your obsolete components, you need to go back to the drawing board.

I came from the avionics industry building equipment that had to be fully supported for at least 20 years.  We spent a lot of time in design making sure that we could actually support our products for the long term.  In some cases, that meant not using the latest and greatest electronics, that's just the way it works.  For instance, the Zilog Z80 processor is still in production today, almost 50 years since it's introduction!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I came from the avionics industry building equipment that had to be fully supported for at least 20 years.  We spent a lot of time in design making sure that we could actually support our products for the long term.  In some cases, that meant not using the latest and greatest electronics, that's just the way it works.  For instance, the Zilog Z80 processor is still in production today, almost 50 years since its introduction!

I come from the big tech software industry - for embedded systems we got to the point that we really only have 5+2 support policy - primarily driven by economics.  We can’t make money on something that lasts longer than 5 years.  

@ChrisFromCle posted:

I come from the big tech software industry - for embedded systems we got to the point that we really only have 5+2 support policy - primarily driven by economics.  We can’t make money on something that lasts longer than 5 years.  

What's your purpose in bringing this up?  If we apply this philosophy to our hobby it will die, and will do so very soon.  Most of us wouldn't even tolerate the approach found in GRJ's example because even 20 years isn't long enough.

While these observations might lead some of us to a doom-and-gloom scenario they don't have to.

Q: Why is it that the Classic Cars hobby has no substantial shortage of parts for its vehicles, including some that are over 100 years old?

Please don't insist that it's the electronics that are killing things.  There are 1950's-era replacement radios, voltage regulators, and ignition control systems presently available, as well as modern replacements, your choice, for those classic cars.

It will take some effort for our hobby to come up with replacements that can no longer be found, or manufactured, regardless of the reason.  This isn't as much a technical challenge as it is a business opportunity.

Where is the next Mike Wolf when we need him?  How about the next LionTech or QSI?   (By the way, this isn't about simply replacing TMCC or DCS systems with, for instance, Blunami.  That's too big a tear-up for this hobby to accept.  It needs replacement, retrofittable parts and assemblies, not completely new systems.)

Who will step forward?

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

(By the way, this isn't about simply replacing TMCC or DCS systems with, for instance, Blunami.  That's too big a tear-up for this hobby to accept.

Mike

Then the hobby, at least 3 rail O gauge will die. Change is the way to keep up your sales. Every PS3 locomotive ever made can be controlled with a DCC system, I think the way to greater sales and long term support is with a standardized control system, one already exists that runs everything from z scale to G scale, why not use it? Lionel could add DCC support just like MTH has, I heard it's already there for S scale, why not O scale? Eventually the propriety systems would disappear and be replaced with the standard system that the entire hobby uses already. Your decoder dies? No problem, pick a replacement from the 4 or 5 manufacturers available that suits your model and needs. Why do we continue to spend $200 or more for an 180 watt AC power supply when a $30 regulated DC supply could be used instead? You want the hobby to stay around for another 100+ years? DCC allows you to run your trains with hardware remotes, wifi apps on your phones, software on your computer, and now with blutooth. It will adapt to new trends and technology far better in the future than Legacy or DCS could ever do. I use to think MTH added DCC to PS3 just for the 2 rail guys, but that market is smaller than even 3 rail so doesn't make a lot of financial sense. I think they  were probably working towards DCC for their products as the control system and get out of the electronics design and just make great looking trains. Then Mike retired and MTH has become much smaller, so I think it makes even more sense now. Withrottle for ios and engine driver for android work much better then the MTH app and are constantly being updated and improved by the open source community, that is the future of the hobby whether we agree to accept it or not. Change is for the future hobbyist, not for us old guys, we can choose to accept it and enjoy the benefits, or reject it and continue with what we have until it's no longer repairable and then we are out of the hobby altogether.

Sorry for the long rant.

"Then the hobby, at least 3 rail O gauge will die. "

You make some good points, but I think this is overly pessimistic.  Lionel is now putting together a device (the Base 3) that will allow operating all of their command systems (Bluetooth, LionChief, TMCC/Legacy).  I suspect it wouldn't be that great a challenge to eventually add DCC to this, but it might be impossible to operate all these types of locos on one layout, given the potential incompatibilities.

The fact is that three rail has always been a niche segment with little in common with other model railroading gauges.  Eventually three rail may die out, but it won't be because we haven't adopted DCC or Blunami is my guess. It will be because insufficient numbers of folks like the whimsical, fantasy elements and operating accessories that made three rail the largest segment of the hobby in the 1950s.  That's what keeps me in three rail and has for 60+ years of interest.  Three rail overlaps with other scales/gauges/interests, but is quite distinct given the lack of broad interest in scale couplers, track, etc. amongst three rail enthusiasts.

Interestingly, Micro Trains, one of the largest N scale manufacturers has adopted Lionel's marketing by introducing War of the Worlds fantasy rolling stock/locos, and Area 51 models.  I'm sure if the market demands it, Lionel will add DCC capacity to its new locos.  No need to abandon 120+ years of history, and a similar span of AC locos.  Lionel starter sets are not all that more expensive than Bachmann sets, and they come equipped with a form of command control.  Something about the size of O gauge still appeals, as well.

@Darrell posted:

. Withrottle for ios and engine driver for android work much better then the MTH app and are constantly being updated and improved by the open source community, that is the future of the hobby whether we agree to accept it or not.

The importance of community driven development is huge and I am glad you brought it up.  The fact the LCS, iCab or MTH app have not been updated in years basically means they are dead - they didn’t realize that a software driven ecosystem requires revenue to continue to develop new capabilities.  What Mike at MTH did is the ultimate slap in the face - I get it you want to retire, that’s great - but what about all your customers who bought in to your software and electronics?  They have to wait while one dude figures out how to deliver a product and app, most likely with the help of a subcontractor - who wants to get paid.  The open source community could have delivered not only a control system, but an application and probably even some good diy hardware remotes in months.  I somewhat kick myself for getting back in to ogauge because of this stuff.  Interoperability standards are important in the real world and in the model train world too.

@Landsteiner posted:

Lionel starter sets are not all that more expensive than Bachmann sets, and they come equipped with a form of command control.  Something about the size of O gauge still appeals, as well.

One big factor is size I suspect.

When Mike decided to retire there were several things he wanted to do.

1) Develop a parts business

2)To produce tinplate trains

3)To license and to develop the DCS System

He has his parts business.  He will produce tinplate again. He has licensed DCS to Atlas. DCS is not going away and is being developed further. Had that not been the case Mike would have closed the St. Joseph, MI location and laid off Dave Krebiehl. The worldwide shortage of chips has slowed down the progress on all of this. How many innovations have we seen in the hobby since the pandemic? Close to zero. The sky is not falling and DCS development has always been a part of the plans going forward.

  Scott Smith

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

What's your purpose in bringing this up?  If we apply this philosophy to our hobby it will die, and will do so very soon.  Most of us wouldn't even tolerate the approach found in GRJ's example because even 20 years isn't long enough.

While these observations might lead some of us to a doom-and-gloom scenario they don't have to.

Q: Why is it that the Classic Cars hobby has no substantial shortage of parts for its vehicles, including some that are over 100 years old?

Please don't insist that it's the electronics that are killing things.  There are 1950's-era replacement radios, voltage regulators, and ignition control systems presently available, as well as modern replacements, your choice, for those classic cars.

Mike

I saw something recently about cars from the 80's are now considered classics.  Some of those cars came equipped with computers.  Simple versions, but nobody is going to make replacements for them if needed.  Older cars will not have this issue (although not every part is currently available as a reproduction).

I am lucky enough to have spare TIU's and handheld remotes.  What a mess Lionel and MTH have made.

Just my two cents- after reading all of the posts I too share in the frustration.  I am a 2 rail guy and operated MTH DCS.  It worked OK at best.  I’ve also dabbled in DCC but preferred the DCS over DCC.  I have about 40-50 MTH 2 rail locos that operated with proto 2 and 3.  I had many more to convert but then started having issues finding the proto 3 conversion kits due to “lack of boards” or so I was told.

At the beginning of this year I discovered Blunami.  Easy to install and operate off Bluetooth.  DC track power and done.  These boards are readily available and easy to get.  For whatever reason Soundtraxx has no problem getting the “chips and boards” and there seems to be a great supply of them throughout the dealers.  My layout is about 1500 sq ft and I have zero problems with signal strength and best of all no DCS issues as “Command timed out” or “can’t find engine”.

I always enjoyed MTH and its offerings over the years, but for Pete’s sake, there is zero support and finding parts and upgrade kits has become futile and a waste of my time.  It’s truly a shame.  I wish  Mike would have sold off the DCS so it could grow and be supported.  Maybe he should have made it so that the proto 3 was compatible with Bluetooth and not have to rely on the TIU.  I continue to see TIU/WIU issues on this forum and I feel bad for all the operators using this system.

Ive also done a few 3 rail blunami setups and they work well. I certainly hope for the sake of our hobby (and MTH folks) that Mike let’s go of his system or we have another step up and take the reins and take care of these DCS issues we’re all faced with. I want our hobby to grow and prosper and issues like this really put a damper on things….

@Rick Stoffregen posted:

At the beginning of this year I discovered Blunami.  Easy to install and operate off Bluetooth.  DC track power and done.  These boards are readily available and easy to get.  For whatever reason Soundtraxx has no problem getting the “chips and boards” and there seems to be a great supply of them throughout the dealers.  My layout is about 1500 sq ft and I have zero problems with signal strength and best of all no DCS issues as “Command timed out” or “can’t find engine”.

I always enjoyed MTH and its offerings over the years, but for Pete’s sake, there is zero support and finding parts and upgrade kits has become futile and a waste of my time.

Remember that Blunami also went through these parts woes. How long did we have to wait for the high amp board and the Android app? Earlier this year, before the availability of the BLU-4408 board and for $50 less, MTH restocked their upgrade kits (you can buy them right now). Also, repair boards for older locomotives are also in stock, the parts availability from MTH right now is better than it has ever been (including pre-pandemic years).

Part shortages were real and many manufacturers started taking a serious look at production numbers and demand in the face of reduced production. There were quite a few parts with low demand that were put on the NLA list so buy what's left and/or redesign your project with newer parts that are in production. That redesign or bringing things back to the drawing board can be a lengthy and costly process.

Support for products from any manufacturer is not what it used to be, while Lionel & Atlas are offering repairs within the first year, MTH is only offering replacements or refunds. Make no mistake, After the first year of ownership, you are on your own. The best support always comes from your dealer, a good dealer has your back no matter what you buy.

Silly question, but is the upgraded ($25) MTH app still for sale on Android? I wasn't able to buy it at the Play store.

For the people talking about old cars, disconnect your TIU's and Legacy units and use a ZW. It still regulates the voltage.

Gerry

https://ogrforum.com/...1#178524922523148581

Here is where you can purchase PS-3 Upgrade Kits and Boards:  https://mthpartsandsales.com/

@gmorlitz posted:

Silly question, but is the upgraded ($25) MTH app still for sale on Android? I wasn't able to buy it at the Play store.

The premium upgrade is an "in-app" purchased and not done through the play store.