MTH DCS SIGNAL PROBLEMS

Nick you did a very good job describing our ailment. 

One other thing, our Tiu and hand held were taken to our local MTH Repair Tech, and had a complete up grade done on them. When they returned to the club layout we had problems with the signal strength, as well as no control, due to weak signal. 

Nick proceeded to make the above fixes, and as he posted, we got a "10" Signal reading on both Loops until tonight. 

Little to no control, and weak signal strength, with a lot of "Out of Range" on the handheld!........All Help Appreciated....................................Brandy!

You might try cleaning the track, engine wheels and pickup rollers.  Sometimes this makes a big difference in the signal strength.  Another factor is making sure that the handles of the Z4000 are full on. 

NH Joe

Are you using 2 TIU's on the Mainline ?   If so. How are they placed ?   Eighty feet is a long wire run. What gauge wire are you using ? 

 I assume you are running in Super mode and the main lines are isolated. Just wondering how the yard ties into the loops. 

 Are the TIU's placed near one another ?  If they are. You might want to spread them out along the 80 ft. length and have each one feed an area rather than an independent loop.  Doing this will make the wire runs much shorter.

 They only other thing I have is. The modules have breaks in the center rails and these seem as to how you are achieving your blocks. Any chance you have 2 center rails slightly touching. 2 TIU channels feeding the same block can cause some problems.   As mentioned clean the track. If available try multiple engines.

our Tiu and hand held were taken to our local MTH Repair Tech, and had a complete up grade done on them. When they returned to the club layout we had problems with the signal strength, as well as no control, due to weak signal. 

Try tethering the TIU and the remote.

If things improve, there's a very good chance that all of the traveling and handling has caused a transceiver board in the TIU or remote, or both, to float out of its socket. Believe me, it wouldn't be the first time this has happened.

If it's happening with all of the remotes, check the TIU's transceiver board first.

I would also check to make sure that when reinstalling the TIU all output wires, including black/common, were connected, and connected securely, and that during the removal-reinstallation process, no wires that connect to the TIU outputs were loosened at their other ends.  I have had that happen.

I assume you have checked all inter-module connections??????

It does sound like remote / tiu communications and not so much track signal.

Nick & Brandy,

   I would advise you to check into what Barry believes might be your actual problem,it does sound like a loose board problem, also you failed to tell us which DCS TIU Rev your club is working with, and whether they have all been upgraded to the exact same levels. Mismatched TIU levels can cause some unexpected problems. Make sure also that all your Engines are programmed into your Hand Held Remote using the exact same number, in each and every DCS HRRC. I also have one other recommendation, because you have a fairly large layout, I would use Gold Banana Plugs on every Channel on all your Z4K's and all your TIU's, to eliminate any wire loosening problems that could occur.  

Interested to see how this problem is resolved.  

PCRR/Dave

Thanks guys, one other thing we forgot to mention, and that was all was correct with the world, until we disconnected the 3 "PXS" smart breakers to get a measurement, to build a protection box to house them in.

I reattached these last night, per the PXS Schematic, and as it was, before the "Signal  Strength" went south.

Going to the Club today, and check, check and double check, as that was the only thing done, when the problem arose it dirty head last night.

That's where I started from, as I knew, it was as it should be, or at least the way it was, when we had "10" Signal Strength on both Mains, in complete circumference of this layout which is roughly 85', on the outer main, and probably 82' on the inner main! 

Also gonna get under the layout on both sides to check out where Nick installed the "Magic Lights", and "Filters", that eventually gave us the "10" Signal Strength originally!

I want to express my gratitude to all you guys that offer help and support, and do so on a regular basis!........................Brandy!

Here's an easy  phase test just to be sure something didn't get hooked up reversed.

Measure the voltage  between  tiu  channel  zones on each side of the insulated joint separating the channels....  center rail to center rail. yep hot to hot... Should be no or very low voltage.  You can also use a light bulb with a couple of wire leads soldered  on. 

Dave,

We are just using one TIU.  We are using 3 out of 4 of the available channels.  Var. 1  channel goes to the inside loop, fixed 3 channel to the outside loop, var. 2 channel to the yard, and fixed 2 is ran to the fixed voltage tap on the Z4000 to supply power for electronics in the TIU.  BTW, we have both var. channels configured as fixed channels so we can adjust the voltage from the handle on Z4000.

Each mainline power bus is split after leaving the output of the TIU, one of the runs is probably 30 feet or so, with the other around 50 ft.  Each loop has its own power district.  There are breaks in the center rails at each cross over where the loops are linked together.  There are also breaks in the center rails between the inside loop and the yard as well.  There are no blocks on the same layout that is fed by two channels.

There is no fixed 3 and fixed 2 won't power the TIU, so something is amiss.

My mistake, I  was listing the channels sequentially.  If you go by how they are labeled, fixed 1 is supplying power for our TIU, and fixed 2 is supplying the outside loop.

I believe Eric (Brandy) made a trip to the club today to trouble shoot the system and try a few of the aforementioned fixes.  I am unable to make it down there today. 

Please follow Barry's advice first, he's a lot better at this than I am. However, I also use PSX-AC's on my layout, only I have PH-180's for power and no Z-4000's. My layout was wired for DCS with OGR wire as closely as possible to the recommendations in Barry's book. I have a different setup than you, not modular, but it has not had one DCS problem since installed a year and a half ago.

My PSX's are on the inputs to the TIU and cause no problems at all. From reading your post, it sounds like you have the same setup as I do (Power (Xfmr or Brick) - PSX - TIU - MTH terminal block (#14 wire) - Track feeds (#16 wire) with the exception of yours being modular. Just in case and as a FYI, the PSX's have been reported to cause problems when wired to the outputs of the TIU (as in Passive mode I believe it's called). A previous problem with this type of connection was resolved with a large choke as suggested by gunrunnerjohn. There is a thread about it around here somewhere. But, if you are going through the TIU with the PSX wired in ahead of the TIU I think you should be just fine with no other changes required as that is how mine is wired.

One more difference here, I power my TIU through the Aux power port using a Z500 brick. I wouldn't think this should make any difference?

RTR12,

    Yes, I made sure to place the PSX's between our transformer and the input side of the TIU, because I think I read the same thread that explains the issues if you place them on the output side of the TIU.

At J1 - AC Power Input Connection strip, do you connect your hot lead to J1-4 terminal, and common to J 1-3?

You have an ACE in the hole if you don't get things straighten out. A spare tiu channel with it's own signal generator and yes  you can use the same power supply that you already have.   I  think  you guys will get it straightened out first...one step at a time.

Why did you go from 14 ga main wire to 16 ga feeders?  Are your ground rails tied together?  Before you get ahead of testing, do check and confirm what Barry pointed out.

I don't know which of the above posts deal with this layout or who is speaking for the club & describing its layout, but I will say that breakers, especially magnetic or electronic, should not be placed between TIU and track. The coils, and other components in them could attenuate the DCS signal.

If you're wired in passive mode, no breakers are needed to protect the TIU because no current is flowing through the TIU.  But, if wired in passive mode, breakers to protect transformers and layout/equipment should be between transformers and the junction where the wire from the TIU is connected.  Also, it is essential to have all 4 black outputs connected together (unless you have a Rev G) and then connected to the wires that feed the outside rails.

Lionel16 posted:

RTR12,

    Yes, I made sure to place the PSX's between our transformer and the input side of the TIU, because I think I read the same thread that explains the issues if you place them on the output side of the TIU.

At J1 - AC Power Input Connection strip, do you connect your hot lead to J1-4 terminal, and common to J 1-3?

Yes, I have the input hot lead (red) to J4 and common to J3 on my PSX-AC's, same as you. I am using the 8 amp setting and some of the other options. This has worked flawlessly here for over a year and a half since I installed them. I have yet to have a DCS problem on my layout.

There sure has been some good info left since, I went to thee club earlier today, and thank you, thank you, thank you, for your help and advise.

Ok guys I just returned from our Club layout. I rechecked the signal strength, now that all of the Other layouts were shut down, still low as last night!!

I cleaned both inner and outer main lines, until nothing appeared on a clean cloth.

I then cleaned 1 of our PS2 engines wheels and pick ups with spray contact cleaner, and all contact/wheel surfaces were clean, and no residue on to a clean cloth. I also made sure the center rollers were clean good,as well as, the axels they rotate on.

I then went to the Transformers, making sure the wiring from the transformer to the PXS's were as what the schematic said they should be, and good tight.

I then checked the wiring from the PXS's to the Tiu, as they should be, and connections all tight, pulled the banana plugs, wiped them off, and reinstalled.

Electrically good to go, I then started  the transformers, adj then controllers to 18/19 volts, restarted the PS-2 engine, got it moving to 30mph, then put into Signal test mode.

It started off on a "10", and ran all away around the inner main which is about 86'. It was "10" all the way around.

I switched it thru cross over switches on to the outer main, and staying at "10" thru the switches and held "10" all the way around the outer main.

I thought this was great. I cleaned the wheels and contact rollers on a PS-3 engine, and put it on the inside main to check out the signal strength again!

Well it was "10" from the start until about 1/2 way around the inner main loop, just about 2' past where the "Hot Feeds" tie into the track near both Z4000's.

The inside loop stayed 4/6 to nothing, then it went back to "10" again back to the same point as before. I removed this engine, the PS-3, and with the PS-2 still running the outer loop at "10", I switched it back across, and to the inner loop again, and it stayed at the "10" it showed before, now on the inner loop!

When Nick originally installed the filters and magic lights and we got all "10's", we were able to get the "10's" on all 3 of our locomotives, and that's 1PS-2, and 2 PS-3 engines. I didn't take the time do do the wheels on the third engine, as I was tired, hungry, and left for home.

I'm about in the notion to call upon an old Catholic Priest friend of mine, that lives in Louisville, to come up, and do a "Haint Removal" on this Dam* thing. 

I'm gonna get a cable to do as Berry suggested earlier in the post, I thought that we had one, but couldn't find it. This way it should tell me if it's the hand held or Tiu, or both. If nothing different, I'll take em both to local MTH Tech, and let him check the boards.

Thank You's to all of you guys, too numerous to count..........................................................Brandy!

There's no point in taking them to the tech, because the boards get loose in transit.  Swipe a cord from a phone handset and test in place.  Given that it works in spots, I doubt it would be a loose board.  Check the ground circuits in the area where the signal is low.

From your description, signal is low in one area.  If your layout is wired in such a manner that areas can be de-powered, try depowering areas other than where the signal is low, while a loco is there reading signal strength.  When I added DCS to my layout 15 years ago, I found that turning off certain areas would cause substantial increase in signal strength in others.  Lights added to the blocks that, when turned off increased signal, cured the problem, permanently.

RJR, I just couldn't figure why one engine gets all "10's", and the one is coming and going. 

I will for sure try the cord thing, as well as your suggestion. I'm ready to buy a "Halleuah" for right now ,if that would help!

Probably hold off on the "Halleuah" until we git it fixed for good!.....

Barry, before you ask, I bought your new DCS Manual, as a gift from me to our club, something happened to the old one, so we now have the latest and greatest...

Brandy,

before you ask, I bought your new DCS Manual, as a gift from me to our club, something happened to the old one, so we now have the latest and greatest.

I wasn't going to ask, however,  I will say thank you!  

I guess I'm really, really confused.  Is it one loco that has the problem, or one area of the layout?   If only one loco has a problem, or only one part of the layout, I don't see how tethering the remote and TIU would make a difference.

RJR, now with one engine coming and going at a certain spot on the layout, which is a PS-3, and the other is a PS-2 that gives me a "10" signal strength, at the same supposed dead spot. I don't really know what the *ell is going on.

The other day when Nick made the "FIX", all 3 engines were "10's", until the trouble started last night. Today I just retraced what was disconnected, and cleaned all the track and engine contacts as suggested. 

I don't know if it makes any difference if it is a PS-2 or PS-3, as it looks like signal strength, is signal strength. You either have it or you don't!

As I said earlier, have done the cleaning, and checking all of the wiring, and PS-2 was all "10's" on both loops, the second engine was a PS-3 that was giving from "10" signal read outs, down to nothing then back to "10", at a spot about 25' away, stayed "10", until back at the same redundant spot again.

I'm gonna clean our 3rd Mth PS-3 engine tomorrow, and see what it gives me.  As well as trying Barry's suggestions with the tether cable from Hand held to Tiu.

I apologize for all this *amn typing, but it's the only way I know to describe it, as it happens!         Have I missed something???????????????? 

Wondering if still getting the" out of range error" messages? 

RJR posted:

There's no point in taking them to the tech, because the boards get loose in transit.  Swipe a cord from a phone handset and test in place.  Given that it works in spots, I doubt it would be a loose board.  Check the ground circuits in the area where the signal is low.

From your description, signal is low in one area.  If your layout is wired in such a manner that areas can be de-powered, try depowering areas other than where the signal is low, while a loco is there reading signal strength.  When I added DCS to my layout 15 years ago, I found that turning off certain areas would cause substantial increase in signal strength in others.  Lights added to the blocks that, when turned off increased signal, cured the problem, permanently.

That was my plan of attack when I installed the light bulbs and Susan Deats filters.  I unplugged different modules, and identified the sections that reduced the signal.  I then installed the signal improvement devices on those modules.

In addition to the engines Eric has tried out, I am going to try a few of my PS2 engines on the layout this coming Thursday - that is when our club meets.

Yes Gregg, we're still getting the "out of range" on the hand held, but at this same location the little PS-2 F3 engine gets all 10's (both Loops).....

The one PS-3 engine at this spot goes from 10 and slowly fades out to the "out of Range", travels about another 6-8', then back to 10 again!........

The one PS-3 engine at this spot goes from 10 and slowly fades out to the "out of Range", travels about another 6-8', then back to 10 again!.......

Does it do this going in either direction?  Are the outside rails connected in this area?  What gauge wires are feeding the center and outside rails?  Have you checked the means of connecting the wires to the tracks in this section?

Tethering?

I read a lot of options try moving the your TIU  to the center of your layout.

It sounds like something in the Room is interfering  with your Signal.

Sometimes your over head lighting interfere with the operation TIU, Signal.

Your Power cord maybe on the same Lighting  Electrical Phase as your outlets in your Train Room.

Please let know you make out.

Good luck, John 

As A matter of fact the 120v supply does come off of the Ceiling fan circuits, in this building!

Today, planning on a hard wire test with the hand held, to see what that does!  

I'm  actually writing all of this stuff down, sometimes it all runs together, and a person don't know what they have done.................

Thanks for the reminder John, concerning the Electrical Supply think, as I got so busy yesterday, I didn't try that, and that would have been the quickest!

We had troubles several years ago when setting up for a show at the Huntington Field House, bad ground on Bld system. We played musical electric outlets before finding one that didn't interfere with the tmcc, as it was the 1st of our remote control system.........................................

I'm glad, I could be of some help .

Good luck,John

Be sure to check the quality of the pin connections between track pieces near the low signal area. A loose pin connection can reduce signal quality significantly.

Joe K