Mth R-15 subway

That's cream and maroon not crime.... iPhones faster then me!!!

Hello D J

The R-15 was on the future plan at MTH -- required new body sides and roof tool & dies -- but then the economy went down the tubes and after the R-142 sets were produced -- that was the end for the time being (to date)  for new projects.  I scratch built my own O-Scale 2 rail IRT R-15 car about 10 years ago -- with full underbody and interior seats, ads, ceiling details, etc.  MTH now is solely re-issuing some of the years ago previously produced subway sets.

Here are some photos of my IRT R-15 car seen on my EL ;

Regards - Joe F

A very nice model there Joe. I have wanted one of these for years, and decided that I could make one using the body sides of an R12 with the roof from an R17, however, for love nor money can I find body shells to try this out. I am loath to cut up two of my existing cars to try it in case it doesn't work. Obviously the doors would have to be altered or scratch built.

I travelled on one of these cars when visiting NY in 1966, as I clearly remembered the porthole windows in the doors.

Cheers

Chris

Hello Chris --

That kitbash conversion using an R-12 Body (its sides only)  would work.    However-- some pointers below ---

(a) -- You will have to REMOVE the lower outside window tracks under the windows --- as the R-15's did not have them.

(b) -- You will have to fill in the rectangular door windows in the R-12 car sides with some thick plastic sheet material -- and file flat the door window "frames" flush with the door skin and the panels inserted into the door windows --- so the the entire skin of each door now looks like one flat steel door panel.

(c) --  Carefully measure and using a round hole (various size circles) drafting template -- draw the 4 circular windows on each pair of doors,  and using a drill - CAREFULLY drill out the material to make circular windows

(d) -- Using the R-17 Carbody shell,  CAREFULLY cutting away and removing  both carbody side wall panels up to and under  the roof line edge -- and then you must COVER OVER the R-17 ROOF VENTILATORS completely on both sides of the car roof.  Look at the Roof of an R-15 car (and my model)

(e) -- then install the R-12 car sides -- after FIRST removing the window outside lower tracks and correcting the door windows per (c)

(d) -- the repaint the now fully kitbashed car -- and when done, install the R-12 INTERIOR SEATING floor and seats section

Just something to consider when you cut apart two different car bodies to create one new car !

My R-15 car was totally scratchbuilt -- which seemed easier to me.  But then again, I have been building model subway and EL car carbodies for over 50 years now in both HO and O Scales.!

I really wish MTH would have done the R-15 when I was working with them on the NY subway sets  -- it was in the works as a future planned model but would require NEW tooling for the roof and body sides.    That's WHY I built my own R-15 - as a sample model for them to work from along with scale plans.

regards - Joe F

Joseph Frank posted:

Hello Chris --

That kitbash conversion using an R-12 Body (its sides only)  would work.    However-- some pointers below ---

(a) -- You will have to REMOVE the lower outside window tracks under the windows --- as the R-15's did not have them.

(b) -- You will have to fill in the rectangular door windows in the R-12 car sides with some thick plastic sheet material -- and file flat the door window "frames" flush with the door skin and the panels inserted into the door windows --- so the the entire skin of each door now looks like one flat steel door panel.

(c) --  Carefully measure and using a round hold drafting template -- draw the 4 circular windows on each pair of doors,  and using a drill - CAREFULLY drill out the material to make circular windows

(d) -- Using the R-17 Carbody shell, and CAREFULLY cutting away and removing  both carbody side wall panels up to and under  the roof line -- and then you must COVER OVER the R-17 ROOF VENTILATORS completely on both sides of the car roof.  Look at the Roof of an R-15 car (and my model)

(e) -- then install the R-12 car sides -- after FIRST removing the window outside lower tracks and correcting the door windows per (c)

(d) -- the repaint the now fully kitbashed car -- and when done, install the R-12 INTERIOR SEATING floor and seats section

Just something to consider when you cut apart two different car bodies to create one new car !

My R-15 car was totally scratchbuilt -- which seemed easier to me.  But then again, I have been building model subway and EL car carbodies for over 50 years now in both HO and O Scales.!

I really wish MTH would have done the R-15 when I was working with them on the NY subway sets  -- it was in the works as a future planned model but would require NEW tooling for the roof and body sides.    That's WHY I built my own R-15 - as a sample model for them to work from along with scale plans.

regards - Joe F

What do you think the chances are for mth to go forward with the project now? They did just modify the R36 tooling to make the 33 singles....

Thanks for the details Joe. I must admit that whilst aware of the window frames (and the destination roll sign details on the sides being different from the R12), I didn't realise that the roofs didn't have the same details as an R17.

I will continue to look for a couple of bodyshells for now, but may have to bite the bullet and put my existing cars under the knife! I think your model is perfect and will be looking at it for details come the day of the operation .

Hello DJ

When I was with MTH their factory and design plans were made in TOOLING for the R-type cars to have Tool Die "Plugs"  so that end storm doors,  the car side windows  (drop-sash type window cars vs: Picture window cars) and the car end faces  (with roof bonnet sign box for motorman cab end,  and Blind end bonnet for blind end)  could be varied per certain car classes...  single cars and married pair cars.

Re: The IRT R-33-WF single cars and R-36-WF married-pair cars:  

As all the early post war IRT R-cars EXCEPT R-12,14,15) have diagonal side entry doors (staggered from each other across the floor aisles) --  and the SAME ROOF with ventilators,  the master body tool die for those cars was the same and designed so as to use these above referenced plugs for variations of car ends, end storm door windows, and car sides (per window changes).  The ROOF always remained constant.  All that had to be done to make an R-33-WF car body from an R-36-WF married pair car body (with its' one blind end)  was to change the end plug die at one end to use the motorman cab (and sign box) end,  and then modify the paint mask for the single car 1964 NY Worlds Fair paint scheme which has the semi-circle curve paint on its wide stripe at BOTH ends of the car side.  And of course, apply the proper car series numbers for R-33-WF.   Minor production costs.

(Note: IRT R-12, 14, 15 and R-62 cars have side entry doors directly across the aisle from each other,  thus NOT staggered))

The R-15 car requires an all new set of dies for both body sides AND for a NEW ROOF -- quite much  more design work and setup tool & die costs for just one particular car relevant only to itself  as far as it's particular design.  Of course,  a number of paint schemes could be used for that body for repeated production runs.

For example,  the BMT Standards were done with a tool die "plug" for the roofs,  so that the 3 different designstyles of roofs of the Standards fleet had could be applied to various runs )and car number classes of) of the BMT Standard.  One production run was made with ONE of the roof styles -- and repeated.  But the other roof styles were not yet utilized !

Only time (and a better and growing economy)  will tell if MTH wants to start any new O-Scale Subway Car tooling projects.  As you know, they are in HO Scale Subways now and testing the waters there.

Regards - Joe F

Chris, your search is over. I can provide you with a few R-12's  for your project. Send me your email address 

Nate

Nate posted:

Chris, your search is over. I can provide you with a few R-12's  for your project. Send me your email address 

Nate

Hi Nate,

You can contact me on rm584@hotmail.co.uk

I am located in Cornwall in the UK. I look forward to receiving an email from you.

Cheers

Chris

Yes I would like these.  Additionally I would like an A, CC, or HH Premier model R-10 in blue and white.  Also would like the R-1 re-issued as the GG train.  An R-38 Premier E train would also be nice.

Chris584 posted:

Thanks for the details Joe. I must admit that whilst aware of the window frames (and the destination roll sign details on the sides being different from the R12), I didn't realise that the roofs didn't have the same details as an R17.

I will continue to look for a couple of bodyshells for now, but may have to bite the bullet and put my existing cars under the knife! I think your model is perfect and will be looking at it for details come the day of the operation .

Chris-

Actually, there may be a middle way.  However, if you're looking to match the excellence of Joe Frank, then read no further.  In this niche, Joe is the Gold Standard and that's all there is to it.  So I used the MTH maroon R17 as my kitbash platform for three reasons.  First, that beautiful MTH maroon paint finish is a big step forward.  Second, there's that great round porthole storm door already built in.  Third, that as-delivered livery is the way I remember them as a kid in Jackson Heights.  I did recognize the liabilities going in- roof deviation, door inconsistency, etc. plus Joe was kind enough to detail them several months ago, and his comments were spot on.  In the immortal words of Clint Eastwood, "A man's got to know his limitations", and I know mine.  And as far as MTH goes, fuggedaboudit- the 7 Train keeps pulling out every night for my demographic.  At least there may be another option.

Fantastic job! Read the Joe Franks post on kit bashing the R-15. However, like your approach usually the MTH model.

How did you fabricate doors and do the port hole doors?

Lastly, how did you match MTH's deep maroon color?

Thanks

Dj'sOgaugetrains posted:

That's cream and maroon not crime.... iPhones faster then me!!!

Kinda liked "Crime and Maroon"

illwill77 posted:

Fantastic job! Read the Joe Franks post on kit bashing the R-15. However, like your approach usually the MTH model.

How did you fabricate doors and do the port hole doors?

Lastly, how did you match MTH's deep maroon color?

Thanks

Will-

Thanx for the kind words.  Door fabrication is relatively easy.  End doors with those great portholes are already engineered into the R17 (and painted!).  For passenger side doors, I use clear plastic sheets cut to shape, then stencil in circles to match the four portholes as closely as possible.  OR if you want to go for it, I have a leftover strip (with portholes) I'll be happy to send you to use as a template.  If interested, give me your email so I can get a physical address.  My color match for the R17 is Humbrol (those little enamel jars from England) gloss #10.

Good luck!

Overlooking the door positioning difference, your cars look great with the colour scheme. I actually like the typo on the other reply of "grime and maroon". Having looked at lots of pics of R15s, they spent a lot of their lives actually looking as if they'd been sprayed black because of years of not being cleaned! My preferred livery is plain red prior to the silver/blue livery.

When I get round to the conversion I'll be posting the work and results here.

CTSRapid posted:

Chris584 posted:

Thanks for the details Joe. I must admit that whilst aware of the window frames (and the destination roll sign details on the sides being different from the R12), I didn't realise that the roofs didn't have the same details as an R17.

I will continue to look for a couple of bodyshells for now, but may have to bite the bullet and put my existing cars under the knife! I think your model is perfect and will be looking at it for details come the day of the operation .

Chris-

Actually, there may be a middle way.  However, if you're looking to match the excellence of Joe Frank, then read no further.  In this niche, Joe is the Gold Standard and that's all there is to it.  So I used the MTH maroon R17 as my kitbash platform for three reasons.  First, that beautiful MTH maroon paint finish is a big step forward.  Second, there's that great round porthole storm door already built in.  Third, that as-delivered livery is the way I remember them as a kid in Jackson Heights.  I did recognize the liabilities going in- roof deviation, door inconsistency, etc. plus Joe was kind enough to detail them several months ago, and his comments were spot on.  In the immortal words of Clint Eastwood, "A man's got to know his limitations", and I know mine.  And as far as MTH goes, fuggedaboudit- the 7 Train keeps pulling out every night for my demographic.  At least there may be another option.

 

Hello CTS Rapids !!

Thanks for the glowing compliments !!  While I know my modeling work is good,  there are others in our small traction -transit very tiny "hand build it from scratch"  fraternity  whose modeling work equals, and in some cases - somewhat surpasses,  my work.  I am much inspired by the work and ideas of others.

I have cleaned up your two R-15 car model photos to show more details --- your 2 kit-bash R-15's from an R-17 still look fabulous !  I said this to you on another thread-posting somewhere else in this "Subways" forum some time ago.  Especially the paint job and re-worked windows.  I know you have the skills to make, create,  in either thin brass sheet,  or thin styrene sheet, two long blank "riveted" panels to cover the R-17 Roof vents,  and paint same to match the maroon paint.  This will further complete the look of these otherwise fine looking created R-15 cars.  Even tho the doorsets are R-17 style staggered,  you can only see ONE SIDE of the car at one time (unless you use a mirror on the opposite side, heh) .  And the entire rest of the carbody gives that distinct R-15 "look" including application by you of the 1950 factory era paint scheme!

I rode the R-12-14- and 15 cars on the IRT Flushing line many times in the 1950's to mid 1960's,  when the 1964 IRT R-33-S and R-36 "picture window"  sky blue and white N.Y. Worlds Fair SMEE cars replaced them on the Flushing line  -- so I remember them well, and even after they were sent to the IRT mainlines in 1963-1964.

Regards - Joe F !

Joseph Frank posted:

CTSRapid posted:

Chris584 posted:

Thanks for the details Joe. I must admit that whilst aware of the window frames (and the destination roll sign details on the sides being different from the R12), I didn't realise that the roofs didn't have the same details as an R17.

I will continue to look for a couple of bodyshells for now, but may have to bite the bullet and put my existing cars under the knife! I think your model is perfect and will be looking at it for details come the day of the operation .

Chris-

Actually, there may be a middle way.  However, if you're looking to match the excellence of Joe Frank, then read no further.  In this niche, Joe is the Gold Standard and that's all there is to it.  So I used the MTH maroon R17 as my kitbash platform for three reasons.  First, that beautiful MTH maroon paint finish is a big step forward.  Second, there's that great round porthole storm door already built in.  Third, that as-delivered livery is the way I remember them as a kid in Jackson Heights.  I did recognize the liabilities going in- roof deviation, door inconsistency, etc. plus Joe was kind enough to detail them several months ago, and his comments were spot on.  In the immortal words of Clint Eastwood, "A man's got to know his limitations", and I know mine.  And as far as MTH goes, fuggedaboudit- the 7 Train keeps pulling out every night for my demographic.  At least there may be another option.

 

Hello CTS Rapids !!

Thanks for the glowing compliments !!  While I known my modeling work is good,  there are others in our small traction -transit very tiny built it from scratch  fraternity  whose modeling work equals, and in some cases - somewhat surpasses,  my work.  IO am much inspired by the work and ideas of others.

I have cleaned up your two R-15 car model photos to show more details --- your 2 kit-bash R-15's from an R-17 still look fabulous !  I said this to you on another posting somewhere else in this subways forum some time ago.  Especially the paint job and re-worked windows.  I know you have the skills to make, create,  in either thin brass sheet,  or thin styrene sheet, two long blank "riveted" panels to cover the R-17 Roof vents,  and paint same to match the maroon paint.  This will further complete the look of these otherwise fine looking R-15 cars.  Even tho the doorsets are staggered,  you can only see ONE SIDE of the car at one time (unless you use a mirror on the opposite side, heh) .  And the entire rest of the carbody gives that distinct R-15 "look" including the 1950 factory era paint scheme!

I rode the R-12-14- and 15 cars on the IRT Flushing line many times in the 1950's to mid 1960's,  when the 1964 IRT R-33-S and R-36 "picture window"  sky blue and white Worlds Fair SMEE cars replaced them on the Flushing line  -- so I remember them well, and even after they were sent to the IRT mainlines in 1963-1964.

Regards - Joe F !

Joe-

GREAT photo re-edits!  Is there anything you don't do well?

Yeah -- stop from getting older each year ................

Joseph Frank posted:

Here are some photos of my IRT R-15 car seen on my EL;

Regards - Joe F

Now, there is a view angle that I have not seen before. I do like it.

Hello Dave  (K ) --- LIRRMP54

Well, Dave,  you have been to my home and layout room a number of  times --- there is always a new angle to see, heh.  Try this video from the near same angle -- I am sure you recognize the venerable EL cars entering the local station....

O-Scale IRT EL MUDC local enters local station

Probably see you up at EPTC Meet in Mid May in a few weeks ?

Regards - Joe F

Thanks everyone for all the great info and pictures of custom/ scratchbuilt R15 models. I've gotten lots of ideas from your posts and I will probably attempt to kitbash an R-12 & R-17 into a R15 model.

CTS,

Would be great to get a stencil/template to use. I'll message you  

Will

When I start my conversion I'll post details and pictures, so hope you can do the same DJ. I'm pretty sure I'll paint mine in plain red so it'd be interesting to know what livery yours will be.

I deffinitly will. I'm debating on doing plain red or silver and blue. and signing it up as either a 3 or a 4 train.