MTH- How is their presence perceived in the 'other scales'?

We're still waiting to build our perception in S Scale...  Other than molasses...

Rusty

I suspect their market share is in O gauge is shrinking, while their other scales are expanding rapidly.  My personal speculation only, not to start a brand war and I have no way of knowing!  Factor in, they had delays with steam products, and lots of rehashes of previous product, and a huge push of European products that aren't as appealing to us in the US market, but are still very cool.

This is all good for MTH,  and I do believe their o gauge line has benefited with advancements like PS3 and other goodies that are on the way.  We won't know until the new catalog comes out at the end of the month, but with MTH in many scales, it makes them stronger overall as a company, and new product in our scale should be getting better from that alone.

I've talked to some H.O. operators and, like here, some swear by them and others swear AT them. The fact that there are more offerings coming leads me to believe they're being well received. The entry into S scale is of interest as the electronics would likely be small enough to insert into smaller O scale equipment.

Had forgotten about their entry into S - Oops!

I have an HO Mohawk that I picked up last year and finally got to see it run at a local train show at the end of Feb. It was pretty nice with almost the same sounds that I'm familiar with in O. I gather that their HO Alco PA's are the only diesels in HO that have smoke?

My brother in law regards the HO offering as "too expensive". He typically buys the engines and then adds the decoder, etc piecemeal. For whatever reason having a full featured engine right out of the box does not appeal to him.

Gilly

A lot of HO modelers follow that same philosophy. In fact, I do the same with my own HO locomotive purchases. I can always add DCC and sound if I so desire at some future point in time.

Bob 

I went to Europe several times in 2011 and 2012, and I never saw any American items in model train stores.  I was actually in a store that was entirely Marklin Trains.  Great looking stuff.  The non-Marklin trains were a couple of doors down the street in another store.

Well in the "G" Gauge world it's tough too tell. Lots of folks despise them and why?? is beyond me. One thing I do know is that the MTH One-Gauge prices are rising because of a shortage of equipment. Big Boys that listed for $1,100.00 are now bringing $1,600.00 and GG1's that like Trainworld was blowing out 6 months ago for $499.00 are now fetching around $800.00

Kind of a repeat of MTH O Scale back in the PS1 days!

I follow HO a little and MTH is gaining in popularity there. They are becoming a better known brand and the quality is mostly well thought of. They also have their brand loyalty as we do in O. My brother-in-law is a die hard Athern Genesis fan (he may have everything they have ever made?) and he has even mentioned MTH HO to me. My LHS carries their HO line and they do have some great looking stuff.

Their O gauge market might be shrinking, but their last couple of catalogs are the biggest they have ever had, so I have to wonder about that? Don't know much about any of the other scales?

We sell alot of MTH HO at the hooby shop. It's gained alot of ground. Hope their S stuff does as well.

Ralph

I like their stuff but their quality still leaves a lot to be desired.  A HO challenger came to me with the drawbar protector shield and thus the drawbar already broken.  Their bigger diesels always seem to derail the cars behind them on 22 inch radius curves on a 18 inch radius rated engine.  Their smaller diesels seem just right. 

I am a member of a large HO club.  Members are buying a lot of MTH locomotives and cars.  Their latest steam engines run very well using DCC.  They have excellent smoke and sound.

Many of club members are very particular about equipment being true to the prototype.  MTH's scale SP Daylight cars get rave reviews for both accuracy and operation.  People particularly like the lighting and the interiors.  

Most of my club's members say MTH should eliminate the DCS portion of their command system in HO.  No HO modelers that we know run DCS.  The DCC portion of PS3 runs well but is harder than other DCC decoders to program.

Overall, our club members think that MTH has some very fine HO products.   Joe

What are the street prices of the MTH HO passenger cars?  List is often $75 - $90 per car from what I've seen.

M.B. Klein's prices for MTH passenger cars run right around $70 per car. See the below link for examples:

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com...page=1&brand=MTH

Bob

On the Model Railroader forum a couple of months ago there was a thread on MTH that became several pages long. Most didn't like MTH at all to the point where I thought they were jumping on the bandwagon in their zeal to knock MTH and I made a post accusing them of that.

They didn't like that MTH was pushing DCS over their DCC, some had trouble with their engines they had purchased, they didn't like no parts available, and their extremely fussy about every little detail be correct for that road name.

We sell a lot of MTH HO at the hobby shop. It has gained a lot of ground.

I am a member of a large HO club.  Members are buying a lot of MTH locomotives and cars.  Their latest steam engines run very well using DCC.  They have excellent smoke and sound.

 

Sam

I have to agree with those opinions.  The real breakthrough product for MTH in HO was the SD70ACe.  They were the first to market in HO with the ACe and coming out with all the prototype paint schemes, especially the UP heritage schemes, got a lot of people to buy their first MTH HO locomotive.  They have had many repeat sales since.

While there were a lot of misgivings among DCC users about Proto 3 at first all but the diehard boo birds have changed their tune as people have bought them or have friends who are happy with their MTH HO. 

MTH listened to HO user feedback and has opened up better access to some features via DCC like custom speed mapping.  DCC users were accustomed to having to set a few points on a speed curve or set a bunch of points on a custom speed map to match locomotives.  Guys with several locomotives and an established custom speed map were not pleased that they couldn't make an MTH locomotive match their existing fleet so MTH made that feature available in DCC mode.  Most HO guys who have smaller fleets or are less set in their ways like the fact that you don't have to speed map each MTH locomotive since they all come out of the box speed matched, something no one else in DCC does.

The previous benchmark HO passenger cars were from Walthers and came with a package of detail parts for the user to install.  MTH HO passenger cars come full assembled are all very nice.  The Daylight cars are simply spectacular.  I would love to see full O scale passenger cars made to the same standard. 

Someone said recently here on the forum that Andy Edelman (?) said the O gauge market is shrinking. Let's hope not.

Unfortunately I think there are some unavoidable demographic realities.  Lionel trains went into a steep sales decline over 55 years ago.  If the thing you wanted most for Christmas when you were 5 or 10 years old was an O gauge train set you are now likely 60 to 65 years old or older.  Twenty hears ago that group was in their peak earning years an often had space in their home to build a layout as their kids moved out.  Now they are nearing retirement or retired and concerned about the performance of their retirement investments.  Some are downsizing their homes and at least partially selling off their collections.

Those market demographics are not limited to toy trains.  As an example, women in the same age group as many O gaugers helped create a strong market 10 to 20 years ago for original and new production Madame Alexander dolls.  That market is much softer today.   

There have been many discussions here on trains as investments.  Those who paid high prices for relatively common items in good condition have usually seen the market fall as new, better performing runners (like RailKing) came along and the remaining strong collectors market shifted its attention to more rare items in better condition.

(As an aside, If I was looking for a monetary reward in the years ahead for collecting toys I would be buying new in the box American Girl dolls today.  The first girl I knew who had one is getting married next month.  In 20 years I bet she would pay a premium for a Samantha or a Kirsten in like new condition.  Of all the toys in the last 50 years I think even Barbie, GI Joe and Star Wars toys will be eclipsed by the nostalgia market for American Girl items in the years ahead.)

Lionel has put a lot of emphasis in recent years on the holiday train set market in larger retailers.  That makes sense for them because they are the most dependent on the nostalgia market.  With holiday sales they get to capitalize on great name recognition, especially with the parents or grandparents who are buying trains.  They have had products like conventional classics to appeal to older buyers and have been working to create their next generation of repeat customers with licensed products related to Thomas and The Polar Express.

MTH has branched out to other markets.  HO has been a success for them.  So has European O scale.  The crossover R&D for those markets is having positive impacts on the traditional O scale market.  But when faced with a decision on where to put time and money for new tooling an American prototype O scale locomotive that might sell 400 copies is likely to end up down the to do list from one that might sell 4000. 

The latest Lionel catalog has been very well received.  MTH recently put out a new HO catalog with new American and European steam locomotives and a new GE diesel.  The combination of good experience with past products and heritage unit sales should make the new HO GE diesel a strong seller.  We should have MTH the new MTH S and O scale catalogs within the next few weeks.  We shall see what they bring.  It just might be interesting. 

so are they out of the G/#1 scale business? (I should know but I don't)

MTH is very much in the No. 1 Scale/G gauge business and put out a new catalog last year.

However, large scale sales have been slow for everyone since 2008.  Aristocraft even shut down last fall.  There isn't much garden railroading going on at foreclosed houses. 

I agree with just about everything Ted wrote (above).  As I've noted for years, the demographics of our hobby are slowly changing (evolving?) and there's little that can be done to reverse that trend.  That is something both manufacturers and consumers have to adjust to and accept.  That does not spell doom and gloom for the hobby; it simply means some adjustments have to be made to meet a changing market and changing market conditions.

Of all the popular model railroading scales, I think it's safe to say that Large Scale (G gauge, if you will) has suffered the most in recent years.  I don't like to admit that because Large Scale continues to be my personal favorite of all the major scales.  But once the original LGB, under ownership of the Richter family, left the scene, things began something of a downhill slide, at least on the domestic scene.  Aristo's departure from the market has also not helped things.  A number of other factors have also contributed to the decline of the Large Scale market, not the least of them being the ever-increasing cost of track--the most basic of items in any scale--and the declining number of brick-and-mortar dealers willing or able to devote shelf space to a diverse assortment of Large Scale items.

It has been my experience in talking with other Large Scale enthusiasts and groups of enthusiasts such as garden railroading clubs, that MTH products were and still are highly regarded.  They are well made for outdoor running and quite durable.  Offering more in the way of smaller motive power would have, in my view, helped to grow that segment faster for MTH, but that's just my personal opinion based on knowing that many garden railroaders in general, and indoor modelers in particular, simply don't have the space needed for extensive layouts with broad, sweeping curves.  That said, there are still, in my view, excellent reasons for MTH to continue its involvement in 1:32 scale trains.  The demise of two market leaders--LGB and Aristo-Craft--provides even more opportunity for growth among the remaining competitors.

"The demise of two market leaders--LGB and Aristo-Craft"

LGB has been making trains again for several years, hasn't it?  It is owned by the same investors who now own Märklin.  I haven't bought any LGB in some time, but I believe they are even making some American prototype trains again.  Doesn't mean the large scale market is recovered or prospering, but they aren't dead as far as I know. They

are partially resurrected .

Interesting read, but the truth is I don't care. I care about the fact that they appear to devote fewer resources to O gauge.

Gerry

As a primarily HO modeler, I'll chime in with my perceptions.  When MTH makes a model of what I want, I will buy it.  I know three people that have purchased their UP 4-12-2s and are happy with them.  I had one running on my layout, and it was one of the smoothest running locomotives I have seen.  MTH is pretty much doing models that they have already done in O.  I'd love to see them make the GN R-2, and if they ever do, there will be a few brass R-2s on E-Bay.  Their drives work well. 

Their ACe models are great, too new for my era, but one of my co-workers bought a few.  He loves them, but took out the PS3 electronics, and put in a Tsunami.

One of the railroads I operate on models Duluth and Superior in the early 1970s.  He was salivating over the DM&IR ore cars that they are coming out with.

Their SP Daylight cars are very nice, but then again, so are BLIs (somebody else did the train recently too, can't remember who).  Not being an SP modeler, I don't know which is more accurate, but one of my friends was telling me that the SP Historical and Technical Society did a review on both, and they both have their merits and demerits.   

Bottom line, the modelers I hang around with in HO couldn't give a darn about brand name, most care that the model is of their chosen road, is accurate, and runs well.  If MTH produces winners, they will sell product. 

Regards, 

GNNPNUT 

Which is why, if you read further up in my post, you'll see that I specifically said the "original LGB, under ownership of the Richter family."  Yes, Marklin (I have a lot of their Large Scale and HO products) continues the LGB brand, but production is a shadow of what it originally was.  They are supposedly including some U.S.-style models in the line, but I've had one on pre-order for nearly two years now and have not yet seen it.  And you definitely have not seen the kind or level of promotional effort that was put forth back in the "good old days" of LGB--the brand that popularized LS in this country.

In talking with the HO folks at the club the persception is their HO rolling stock is excellent, and competatively priced. The feeling about the locos is MTH forgot most HO people are operators and bargain hunters, not collectors.

Also, none of them could figure out why MTH was pushing DCS in HO when DCC, which has NMRA standards, was already so firmly entrenched in that market. And while the detail was good, the early MTH locos DCC support was problematic at best.

Later runs improved the DCC support, but people still felt like the price included the cost of the DCS electronics they didn't want, or need. DCC support in the latest offerings is better, but the prices are still considered way too high for what you get.

If MTH ever decides to drop the DCS and just go DCC the perception might change.

Len,

I think the expectation MTH has that DCS would become widely adopted & embraced over DCC in the long run.  If you notice their advertisements they try to do feature & operational comparisons between DCS and DCC and try to show why DCS would be, for lack of a better word, "superior" to DCC.  That tells me that they definitely want to try to sell DCS as the "replacement" standard control system.  That might prove to be a long and definitely a currently challenging goal to achieve, but I think they're fully aware of that, with more DCC functionality being built-in to their more current offerings as an indication.  They've never been guilty of not being aggressive in many aspects, and it doesn't surprise me that they're aggressively selling DCS as an "improved" control system over DCC.  They believe it is at any rate, whether or not the mass HO consumer market thinks otherwise is a different story, but a lot of that will require them to at least be open to trying it out and seeing for themselves.  Maybe MTH is banking on "newcomers" on adopting DCS in HO and having it grow that way while DCC fades over time as more newcomers replace the older generation. 

Only time will tell for sure.

Two questions please:

What features does PS3 have that are 'better' than regular DCC w/a good sound system? I'm just not at all familiar with DCC and HO.

Also, I've noticed that some of MTH's Daylight HO GS steamers are available for approximately $500+/- but occasionally one pops up with an asking price of $900-$1000. These usually state "Large Lettering" if I remember correctly. Have they produced different models since introduction and is one that much more desirable than the others?

Thanks, allota times I read GR very fast, don't notice some of the ads. I figured MTH would have been very popular. As an LGB enthusiast, I noticed one of the chief complaints against LGB (besides price) was that "They aren't to scale, they're just toys etc etc." Meanwhile, USA and Aristo (their preferred brands, weren't quite to scale either (though closer, and pushed into that not quite scale dimension to be compatible with LGB). And as far as I know, MTH is the only mass producer of 1:32 scale trains (exuding high end and limited edition runs). I think Ted though is right on about one of the reasons of decline in the large scale market. And as Allan said, LGB is just a minority player now, but look when Marklin brought it back: right as the recession started...Perfect timing! Although I sort of doubt the economy will ever be back the way it was, I do think it's hard measuring the overall health of the hobby in any scale during this time.

Why did LGB go down hill so fast in the US?  I remember back in the 90's they had a fairly large presence but by the mid 2000's they basically disappeared especially after the Bankruptcy in 2006.  Even though Marklin owns them now I do not really know a hobby shop in the area that sells their products.

Like with all in the O gauge market they are serving a middle age audience that is rapidly moving into the "elderly" category . The  changing demographics of those that support this hobby and the resulting shrinking buyer base is bound to affect those who sell in the market and how they approach their market. As to the future direction that MTH or any other manufacturer takes, you'd need a crystal ball to predict that.

The problem over the pond(UK) here there is really little to no back up for the MTH brand & most people I speak to at shows have never heard of them.

James 

Back in the 1980s and '90s, LGB had a major and highly visible presence in the U.S.  The products could be seen everywhere, including restaurants, hotels, public displays of all types, and in national print advertising that extended well beyond the usual hobby publications. 

That all changed, almost overnight, when they declared bankruptcy.  I'm not sure what happened to LGB in terms of their business operations, but I assume that some very unfortunate management decisions forced them into a situation not unlike what K-Line went through.  And, like K-Line, LGB never recovered.  Truth is, there are some striking similarities in what happened to both of those businesses.

In my opinion, LGB trains were/are the best made trains offered in any scale.  I know others in the industry and close to it who would readily agree with that.  They were bullet-proof and extremely quiet and reliable runners.  I have not to this day seen any trains that were/are built better (although I have no experience, yet, with the current LGB product being offered by Marklin).

While I agree they probably had a few complaints, they were probably all die-hard Athern (or other HO brand) fans. Sounds like around here when someone has a problem with either Lionel or MTH and the other brand's fans all join in the bashing.

Is MTH really 'pushing' DCS as they also include DCC?  Or is it just because they include it on their control boards that the others were un happy?

The HO folks are definitely picky about their details!

My first electric train set was a LGB Stainz set.  Later I got a Santa Fe Alco diesel locomotive.  They were quality products but what pushed my family away from G Gauge was price.  My family ended up getting a MTH Genesis set for me and I moved on to O-gauge.  I think the mediocre economy of the 2000s especially in the US had a negative effect on LGB.  I am guessing the company it self was being managed poorly too and that lead to its demise.  Unfortunately I do not see them getting back to that level they once had especially with economy being so mediocre and many people not having the money for a $400 LGB starter set.  I hope MTH though is able to expand there 1 gauge line and fill the marketshare that LGB and Aristocraft left.  I am shocked MTH does not have a 1 gauge starter set yet.

Was reading a Garden Railways magazine the other day and an ad had I believe 12 sections of 6' track (72') for something just under $400 I think? I thought it was a mis-print. Is it really that much? That really seemed like a LOT!

I feel like LGB's slide was happening before the bankruptcy. I think modelers in G scale wanted more "scale" (see my earlier response) American, standard gauge models, and most of what LGB was doing wasn't that, coupled with the price. Marklin has hired Ron Gibson back from LGB of America to work on American branding. LGB fans may know there were rumors that Marklin was going to abandon the North American market, but then Marklin's CEO got Das Boot and you can see by the ads in GR that at least they're going to TRY again. That said, most of the LGB items I've accumulated since 2007 are second hand original ones, but I do have two pieces of the Toytrain line rolling stock and I think may purchase the new loco in the line.  But as everything no matter what scale we're talking about, I get the sense a lot of people get scared off by the MSRP, I don't think I've bought any trains at MSRP. Do your research!

Also too, I do wonder with Aristo out of business and for right now no one interested in picking up the molds, I wonder if this will be an opportunity for MTH, now that USA trains is the only manufacture of US standard gauge prototypes.

Yes, the price of Large Scale track is definitely one of the major factors dissuading new or expanded participation in the hobby.  It has gotten out of sight for many folks, and if you have or are planning a large garden railroad it can really take a bite out of the wallet.

I'm planning to replace the brass track on my small garage layout with stainless steel in the relatively near future, but even that small amount is going to carry a hefty price tag.  Fortunately, I have a good amount of brass track and switches that I can sell to defray part of the cost.

Unfortunately, MTH does not offer #1 gauge track, so a new entrant to the hobby is pretty much compelled to go with other options...all of which are relatively costly.  For my indoor Large Scale, I use Marklin's #1 gauge track and switches.  I won't even tell you how much that stuff costs (it is great track, though). 

My guess is if anyone at all ends up with the bulk of the Aristo tooling, it will be Bachmann.

"I think the expectation MTH has that DCS would become widely adopted & embraced over DCC in the long run. "

Interesting to note that MTH ads in Model Railroader and other HO-centric publications now only mention DCC, and do not mention DCS at all in the ads I've seen.  I think they've read the writing on the wall.  A closed, proprietary system is unlikely to gain a foothold in the open source world of HO command control.  Their main competitor for the high end is Broadway Limited (BLI) who use only DCC and have their own proprietary sound system. 

I believe this point was mentioned earlier in the thread but HO and N scale guys don't get caught up in the brand wars like O gaugers do. They'll buy a model regardless of who makes it as long as it's something they want and it meets their specific criteria. For example, I have HO and N scale equipment from Athearn, Atlas, Bachmann, Bowser, InterMountain and Kato to name just a few. You may find a few brand die-hards but they're not many in number. As a rule, you don't find the fervent brand loyalty in the other scales.

Bob