My dream/nightmare layout... July Update 7/31/19 Big Boy month!

Bruce - Funny story, a few years ago when we were building the small helix, a non-train buddy of mine came over and found me standing on a ladder inside the helix. Thinking I looked like a DJ, he looked around the room to come up with a name. I have been "DJ Lionel Legacy" ever since. Now I even have the turntables.

Pete - I have had a couple videos of trains running up for a while now.

Westbound

Eastbound

I'll have to make a new one soon.

George - Matt's right, I have had him do almost all the Tortoises (I did the last dozen myself). Then he has done all of the manual push rod throws. Grand total between the two projects right around 200. The last 100 have been me again, mostly Caboose ground throws, but a couple other styles as well.

Matt - That would be fine, she's a perfect lady, especially when she's had a chance to run around the yard for a while.

Elliot, I just watched both your videos, I have to say great work! I do have a question though. What is the purpose of having some of the homoste even with the top of the ties?

Mike - Thanks. There are actually 4 different roadbed treatments in various places around the layout.

1. Pink foam with diluted white glue paper maché made from brown paper towels. This technique was used on the first section laid on the main level form Red Wing and Prescott to St Croix. I was trying it because I had seen something similar on an HO module many years ago.
2. Homasote which was cut from sheets used on a previous layout. This style goes from St Croix all the way past Pigs Eye. It is done much like cork roadbed, but is a half inch thick. When it was gone, I switched to the next method.
3. Fiberboard, is by far the most prevalent treatment on the layout. The last peninsula and a half on the lower deck and the entire upper deck were done this way. The mainline tracks will have the beveled profile. Yard and industrial tracks will just stay flat.
4. Finally, no roadbed. This method is reserved for tracks that will not be seen. The stuff you see even with the top of the rails isn't Homasote, it's 1/4" Luan plywood, and serves a few purposes. There are actually two layers of this material. The first layer is secured to the deck and allows for nice straights and smooth curves. In the case of parallel tracks, it creates perfect spacing. The second layer sits on top of the first and overlaps the tie ends, locking the track down. The track itself has no screws to secure it when using this method.

Elliot,  Thanks for the information. It sure sounds like a great idea and makes it easier if you want to remove track and relocate it. I think its a great idea!

Happy Halloween gang (what's left of it anyway). Once again a bunch of projects got worked on this month. Joe was only over once, and Matt was here twice. Matt's two visits were mostly spent running trains, and looking for trouble spots, both track work and TMCC signal.

I finished taking the pictures of all the engines on the layout for the Loco Log. This involved bringing all the trains out of both hidden yards and doing a lap on the mainline. The Loco Log is now up to date, until I put more engines on the layout. The total is up to 40.

We were looking at how the engines ran, in an effort to unlock the mysteries of the TMCC track signal. What we've found so far is that some Lionel engines go everywhere, some go many places, and some don't really work at all. Legacy doesn't really matter, and older simpler engines do better than newer ones. The engines that do best are mostly Atlas. This is going to take brain power and scientific method, and writing things down in the Loco Log may help us discover a pattern, and allow us to find the solution.

Matt rebuilt a Tortoise mount in the big helix. The fix allowed the points to close better, and has stopped derailments. I fixed a couple other problem switches that we discovered.

Here we see the Masonite fence I put up to prevent cars from falling to the floor in the future. I don't want a repeat of last month's disaster.

I added a couple more switches, bringing the layout total to 305.

The first switch is cut into the existing track.

Preparing to place the second switch.

These two tracks will hold a coal train for the power plant.

The completed tracks...

with the power plant in position.

I added the very last of the Caboose ground throws to the layout. There are just 15 of the push rod throws for Matt to complete, and then all the switches will be done!

I've set Joe on a new project of carving roadbed along the mainlines. When each section is complete, I can paint the rails and ballast.

There is still some wiring to be done in the big helix. I'm about a quarter of the way around the circle.

November and December will be for tying up loose ends and cleaning. I hope to get the raised floor replaced with plywood, and the last bit of Sheetrock hung. There's a lot to do and just under 2 years to do it.

As always a big ! 

I  noticed a picture of an engine service facility is that something you will incorporate? You would think TMCC could be solved with boosters sort of what is done in DCC but this is way behind my comprehension. Is the TMCC signal degraded due to the size of your layout? How about DCS and its new WiFi system you would think that would give you more coverage but I believe all your engines are TMCC?

Seacoast posted:

You would think TMCC could be solved with boosters sort of what is done in DCC but this is way behind my comprehension. Is the TMCC signal degraded due to the size of your layout? How about DCS and its new WiFi system you would think that would give you more coverage but I believe all your engines are TMCC?

TMCC signals can be boosted, you probably haven't seen Dale Manquen's thread on his booster that he's building.  The NJ-HR is using a booster for their layout with the result that they've put any TMCC issues to bed there, and now are fighting the DCS issues.

The DCS WiFi does nothing for the DCS track signal, so with or without the WiFi component, DCS track signal issues don't change.  I suspect Elliot has already contacted Dale for a beta test of his TMCC booster.

Good morning gang!

Roman - A huge thank you for that tiny post! I'm a firm believer in forum etiquette, so I refuse to bump my own topic. As such, I rely on all of you to keep this ball rolling for the first few days of each month, and allow more people to see it. After the 3rd or 4th, it can go back to sleep. The early Tuesday crowd was here, but nobody said anything.

George - You have a good eye, you spotted that last picture that wasn't in the body of my post. The short answer is yes. That's BNSF's Northtown hump yard's engine service facility. Matt had been complaining that he was a little confused by all the locations on the layout, so I took him out railfanning on Sunday afternoon, in the hope of reinforcing the geography for him. We saw all kinds of neat stuff at Northtown, including some brand new tier IV locomotives. Matt's an excellent diesel spotter, because he pays attention to that stuff, me not so much. He texted me all the pictures he took with his phone, but they're too small for the forum, or I would have posted more. You're also looking through two layers of chain link fence, because we didn't get out of the car. 

Here are a few that I took a number of years ago.

I call this "the engine spinner", because that's all it does.

Here's my interpretation of the Northtown engine service facility with its little turntable. I'll build shop structures to cover two or three tracks behind the turntable. Diesel and sand will be  behind the switcher and the blue bins.

John & George - I've actually had Dale's signal booster connected to the layout for quite some time, but was sworn to secrecy about it until Dale went public with it last month. It has made a huge difference in overall signal levels as measured with the R2LC test car. There are still certain engines that have trouble in some spots, but I believe those problems to be specific to the type of engine. For some reason, Atlas engines run almost perfectly everywhere now, but they didn't used to prior to the booster. Now that we are running more trains, I'll have something to report back to Dale. This is one reason I created the Loco Log, to document the behavior of every engine, looking for commonalities. I wish it was as simple as just hooking up the booster, but it's not. It probably doesn't help that my roster is mostly made up of inexpensive used pieces found on eBay. A "rogues gallery" if you will.

nice update Elliot!  good to hear that the signal booster helped you so basically most engines will run the entire layout with good signal and command responses?

I have been watching the leaves turning and dropping down by the union depot the picnic camera must have a filter on it as the yellows were dim then in a week poof on the ground or far as I can tell from that camera.

Thanks Ray, trying to get all engines to run well is a big hurdle. It involves a lot of variables in my case. Everything plays a part in smooth reliable running, clean track, clean wheels and rollers, fresh batteries in the remote. We're still tinkering with ground planes.

When we've made every possible fix to the layout, then we'll have to start looking inside the engines themselves. We've done work on antennas in some, we've put a shield over a choke coil on the Railsounds whatever it is board, on some engines. The one thing that I have heard of, but never tried, is adjusting the "slug". The slug looks like a ceramic trim pot, and is set at the factory. It is tuned to the 455KHz track signal. If it's off just a little, it could be the problem. Without knowing exactly what it does, I'm not sure if changing it will fix anything, it might and is worth a shot on an engine or two to start. I have heard that it is very sensitive, and shouldn't be turned very far from the factory setting.

Now that the leaves are mostly off the trees, you can see the tracks much better from that camera. Dang trees! You lose a half a year of train watching.

For those of you who want to see what Ray and I are talking about, click here, then select camera 2. You are just outside downtown St Paul MN east of Union Depot looking at the wye. Lots of BNSF, CP and UP traffic. Only two passenger trains daily. Morning Empire Builder eastbound around 7-8 AM and westbound around 9:45-10:15 PM when they're on time.

Elliot, the only locomotives with the "slug" will be older ones with either a version of the R2LC of C07 or earlier, or the ancient ones with the LCRU or LCRU2 boards.

I wouldn't go randomly changing that, you are likely to render the board inert.  I'd simply swap in another R2LC to see if it's the receiver, much less risk.

Stupid question, but given the size of your layout, all the parallel tracks and so forth, could you be running into ground plane issues? I don't run TMCC, but over the years have read about this, and the solution is relatively simple, it requires having a wire attached to an earth ground near the track or underneath it (I vaguely recall someone used a copper foil tape under the tracks, maybe the NJ Hi Railer guys?).  From what I have read it sounds like even if you boost the signal strength via a booster, it still may not work right. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Seacoast posted:

You would think TMCC could be solved with boosters sort of what is done in DCC but this is way behind my comprehension. Is the TMCC signal degraded due to the size of your layout? How about DCS and its new WiFi system you would think that would give you more coverage but I believe all your engines are TMCC?

TMCC signals can be boosted, you probably haven't seen Dale Manquen's thread on his booster that he's building.  The NJ-HR is using a booster for their layout with the result that they've put any TMCC issues to bed there, and now are fighting the DCS issues.

The DCS WiFi does nothing for the DCS track signal, so with or without the WiFi component, DCS track signal issues don't change.  I suspect Elliot has already contacted Dale for a beta test of his TMCC booster.

That's something I like to add to the layout when Dale's makes them for sale.

Thanks John, odd as it sounds, it is some of the older ones that run better than some of the newer ones. I will heed that warning about not messing with the slug, for those that have one.

Matt brought over a couple of his newer Legacy engines to try. Both ran in some places, but had trouble in the big helix, then again in the hidden yard. Matt was thinking that some of the different versions may be the source of the problems.

BigKid, that info has been around for a long time. Mike Regan talks about that in the official Lionel video. I have actually used that technique in both hidden yards and a few other places on my layout. Both Helixes have received special ground plane treatment as well. The small helix had a foil shield built in during construction. I get some of the best response from all engines in there. The big helix was recently retrofitted with a single wire above the track. Matt and I are not convinced that this method is as effective as the full foil shield. But far and away, the highest signal levels are found on the upper deck, where chicken wire was laid down on the framework before the deck was applied. I'd still like to know why that works, all I know is it does!!!

Great layout and nice progress. Always look forward to seeing your progress. Hope when it is all done TM Books or OGR will put your layout in one of there video's.

Thanks again for keeping us updated..

David

I've actually had Dale's signal booster connected to the layout for quite some time, but was sworn to secrecy about it until Dale went public with it last month.

Elliot, glad the signal issue fix has for the most part worked.  Its to bad with the amount of large layouts out there that Lionel didn't on its own developed a signal booster. As usual its left up to some one on there own to develop a fix that becomes marketable system.  As for the layout it looking great and cant wait when your at the point to start actual scenery.  

Don't tell anybody, they might all think it's OK to bring dogs to Eliiots house. It's just OK th bring my dog mostly cuz she's AWESOME!!!

Matt Makens posted:

Don't tell anybody, they might all think it's OK to bring dogs to Eliiots house. It's just OK th bring my dog mostly cuz she's AWESOME!!!

Umm, I should bring my 3 dogs over Elliot's place!

You should, I bet that'll be the thing that pushes him over the edge. Let me know so I can be there

Glad to see you are making progress on the TMCC signal problems (and the layout too, of course). Hope you get to the bottom of the signal problems soon and can get some reassurance that all will work well with no problems when finished. Good luck with the testing and please keep us posted. Good luck with all the testing and problem solving.

Thanks guys! Quick responses before I head downstairs to kick off the November work schedule.

David - If you build it they will come. Everything is on track to come together in 2018. Not to worry, I'll alert the media.

Suzukovich - You have to keep in mind that this is not the typical layout. Lionel's original TMCC design works for 99% of users. Dale's booster has been a huge help. I enjoy being different, it makes life more interesting.

Matt - Maybe you should let sleeping dogs lie.

Patrick - I would be happy if you just brought yourself.

RTR12 - I'm pretty confident that we will get to the bottom of the signal issues. If worse comes to worst, the problem engines may be retired. Time will tell.

Elliot those possible retired engines would make nice stationary scenes and or dummy units?

the booster what exactly does it do?

StPaul posted:

Elliot those possible retired engines would make nice stationary scenes and or dummy units?

the booster what exactly does it do?

Ray, they might be even better if they were sold back on eBay. We'll see. As far as I know, the booster just amplifies the TMCC track signal. I was able to measure up to a 50% increase in some areas. Dale is still in the testing phase on this and is looking for people to try it and supply data. Click here to visit his topic.

OH MY GAWD ELLIOT THAT WAS REALLY PUNNY!!!

Dale's booster deals with the strength of the track signal, it's still important to have the earth ground in the picture.  I suspect the remaining signal issues may be solved by how you run the earth ground wiring.  Also, remember that too much earth ground may be as bad or worse than too little.

I wonder if you could add a localized booster or "repeater" to boost the signal in localized areas

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Dale's booster deals with the strength of the track signal, it's still important to have the earth ground in the picture.  I suspect the remaining signal issues may be solved by how you run the earth ground wiring.  Also, remember that too much earth ground may be as bad or worse than too little.

That, and there is still some engine tinkering we can do with antennas and those coil shields. Matt did a bunch of that, but we didn't get anywhere close to completing the entire fleet. I had him write that stuff down on note cards, but I need to transfer it to the log book.

I just got off the phone with Dale, sharing the latest batch of results with him. The other day, Matt observed that when we ran a new engine down the helix, and he held down the horn key, it only sounded every time it passed under a support. I told Dale that story, and he asked how high above the track the ground wire was hung. I told him that it varied in height between 7.25" and 6.5", and the horn only worked at 6.5". It seems that there is something specific to the helix, because we don't see this behavior out in open sections of the layout. Furthermore, we don't see this behavior in the small helix, which has a full foil lining that was applied uniformly during construction. 

I think we have found a great clue, and I'm excited to continue looking for answers. Matt and I will be back at it Friday night.

I gotta tel you guys, that Matt is a really great guy.Hard working and on top of his game.He really knows his stuff. Hes pretty nice too. An OH MAN, he has the greatest dog.

Matt,  Nicely done!

Elliot, time to change the locks!

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

I gotta tel you guys, that Matt is a really great guy.Hard working and on top of his game.He really knows his stuff. Hes pretty nice too. An OH MAN, he has the greatest dog.

 

 

Your lucky to have such a good friend.

John,  whatever do you mean? That sounds like nothing but the utmost scincerity on Elliots part. I'm absolulty flattered at all of the compliments 

It takes 2 flints to make a fire.  You guys are inspirational regarding the layout effort!

He really is a great guy, smart and funny too

Awe thanks Elliot

Matt Makens posted:

Awe thanks Elliot

Well played sir!

I go out back to the grill to make dinner, and someone uses my computer. I believe that is the definition of being punked.

I will now check my back for a kick me sign.

Elliot;

I've just finished reading your postings about your layout build. It's amazing what you and your friends have done. One beautiful railroad. I can't wait to see it develop scenery. Going to be even more spectacular than it is now. I'm in the middle of building a new layout myself. It's a twice around the room loop runner kind of thing. Would love to have more space for a linear road but have to live with what I have. It's about half done. Would like to have a signal system on it so I am eagerly waiting to see how you do yours. Keep up your postings: Can't wait to read what you have been doing..

Jay

Thank you Jay, sorry I didn't see your post sooner or I would have replied sooner.

Time for the November update. It has been a busy month with lots of projects getting worked on. Matt came over a couple times at the beginning of the month and worked on more of the manual switch throws. We are only 10 away from being totally done with those.

We also ran a bunch of trains in the hopes of figuring out some of the TMCC signal issues. We found a number of engines that made it all the way around the main without a problem. What these engines had in common was they were either Atlas or MTH converted to ERR. More testing is still needed. In the process we also identified a few spots where a number of engines didn't want to go. The layout will need to be "tuned" in those spots

The rest of the month I've been on my own. I continued working on the wiring in the big helix. I am now half way around the circle. This is the last of the major wiring on the the entire layout.

I completely finished hooking up all 123 Tortoises on the mainline. The Chemolite panel was the last one to be installed.

The Prescott panel had been in service but needed to be updated to the 24V SPST control system.

I had been dreading dealing with the Newport panel. As usual, it wasn't as bad as I had built it up in my mind.

The south relay panel is now fully populated. I'm just waiting on my new 12V supplies to test my work. They are for Tortoise power, the 24V relays work fine. All I need to check is that the panel switch position matches the the turnout position on the layout. If it's backwards, I just flip the wires on the right. Fixed!

This is a redo that has been a long time coming. I had a guy that owed me money work it off by replacing the floor. Gone is the 1/2" OSB, and in its place is 3/4"plywood. So much nicer!

Here's an update on an electronic project that I started a few months ago. Remember the Searchlight Signal Driver cards my wife and I assembled? I couldn't get the red side of the LED to go dark. I gave one of the cards to an old buddy who is an electronics guru so he could test it.  He said it worked fine. Then he asked what I was using for a power supply. I told him an old MPC transformer with a bridge rectifier. He said put a filter capacitor on that. So I did!

This picture is not a mistake! On the contrary, it represents total success. Darkness, no leaking red.

And that's how they're supposed to work!

This means we can now assemble the other 9 cards.

I had a number of visitors this month including a bunch of my old TCA buddies, then a couple days later forum member Darlander and a couple of his buddies stopped by after attending a local train show. It was a great time.

I started a topic a couple months ago, about lengthening the TMCC base antenna for better reception of Cab-1 remote commands. After a good deal of discussion, I took some of the advice, and here's what I did.

I opened up the base, and fashioned a terminal lug from hardware I had laying around. Then I attached the purple wire to it.

I unscrewed the original antenna, that red thing, without disconnecting the wires from it. Then I carefully cut into the insulation without severing the copper wire.

I soldered the other end of the purple wire to the bare section of the black wire, then used liquid electrical tape to seal the connection.

I put it all back together, and reconnected it to the layout. The white wire is the new antenna.

It will be strung down each aisle of the layout to ensure good communication with the base.  This is all part of an effort to remove variables in the smooth operation equation.

My workbench is a disaster! Then I had an idea to organize all my pliers, wiring tools, chisels, and big screw drivers. I had this old graphic artist's spinning organizer, so I started filling it up. Some of the handles on the tools were too long and were dragging on the counter top. Even though it already had its own lazy Susan, I swiped a better one from the kitchen, Perfect, it raised it up just enough, and it spins like a top.

Here's a little preview of what will be happening in December. I cleared all the junk away from this corner. This is going to be the dispatcher's area. There will be two 55" monitors, one on each wall. One will display the JMRI control panel schematic of the layout. The other will display the 16 security cameras that monitor the hidden areas of the layout.

This cable and a bunch of other computer related wires...

need to travel inside the big white pipe, over that doorway to serve the dispatch area.

The plan is to finish the Sheetrock next week.

Eventually all the functions seen here will be moved over there, then this area can get its backdrop and fascia.

Last but not least, I finally broke down and bought my first Menards piece. I grew up with Red Owl stores in the Twin Cities. When Art (Chugman) said they were doing these, I had to have one. It's huge, and I have no place for it on the layout. I'll have to get creative to find a home for it.

Next month will mark the end of the fourth year of construction. I may have a big surprise for all of you. Not a what, but a who. As always a monthly update with a year end recap.

I enjoy your monthly updates, you are moving right along.

Go mam go!