Is it possible to lengthen the TMCC base antenna? UPDATE with photos 4/20/18

Yes. There are several threads on that.

Elliot, I can bring my legacy base over with the 10db high gain antenna and we can try that too

Thanks Chuck, I don't remember seeing any, but I wasn't thinking about until now, so I wasn't paying attention.

Thanks Matt, but the Legacy base isn't exactly what I'm after. I need TMCC because it has to work with all my Cab-1's, and they are not compatible in that regard. When I find the topic that Chuck was referring to, we can just cobble one of my bases together.

Why not just add a couple of more base units at different locations?

suzukovich posted:

Why not just add a couple of more base units at different locations?

Sorry, but that's a no no. Only one base per layout. Not my rule, Lionel's.

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

suzukovich posted:

Why not just add a couple of more base units at different locations?

Sorry, but that's a no no. Only one base per layout. Not my rule, Lionel's.

Has it been tried? If you have an extra one. What do you have to lose by trying it? If nothing else It would just eliminate that good idea fairy thing. 

You can only have one base.

Here's one thread on the antennas. I have one with gain and the coverage went from in the room to as far as two rooms away.

https://ogrforum.com/t...legacy-command-base-

suzukovich posted:

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

suzukovich posted:

Why not just add a couple of more base units at different locations?

Sorry, but that's a no no. Only one base per layout. Not my rule, Lionel's.

Has it been tried? If you have an extra one. What do you have to lose by trying it? If nothing else It would just eliminate that good idea fairy thing. 

It will not work!  The carrier for each base will clash and you won't get anything controlled.

I have discussed this with a EE that knows how to spell RF.  He has said that in systems like this, the transmitter, receiver, and their respective antennas are all matched to one another.Unless you replace both antennas with antennas designed or matched to one another the improvements are negligible.

Steve

That's not true or pertinent for what we are proposing.

OK Chuck, I read through that topic, though it was only about the antenna on the Legacy base, and I am not using Legacy. Remote to base communications are on different frequencies for TMCC and Legacy. That said, I assume the principle is the same, though the specific antenna may be different. The TMCC base has no external antenna so the case would have to be drilled to accept one. No big deal.

Elliot, 

Right now, where is the base located?  would it be possible to move it to a central location above the layout then run a serial cable down to the rest of your control panel?  You may need to boost the serial to run a long distance, but if you can solve the remote-to-base problems by moving the base, it could be an option.  

JGL

Oh sorry, the TMCC base is 27MHz transmission from the handheld. I don't know what exactly you would do there without some research into improving the reception in the base. I don't remember how it picks up the signal internally.

What if you install a legacy base that works and find out it solves all of your TMCC woes???

RF aka Radio Frequency!  Now that we've gotten that out of the way.

You can actually greatly improve the range by fairly simple measures.  It's a 27mhz antenna, not rocket science.  Let's take something like eBay: 172279815241, a decent 27mhz antenna.

Open up the TMCC base and connect a matching PL-259 connector to these pins, center to red, outside to green.  Obviously, you disconnect the internal antenna.

Matt Makens posted:

What if you install a legacy base that works and find out it solves all of your TMCC woes???

Matt, won't help. The track signal issues have been mostly resolved, and that is the same between TMCC and Legacy anyway. It is all about the nine Cab-1's that I own and need for operating sessions. Remember that Legacy is just a novelty in my world. TMCC is the workhorse at the center of my system.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

RF aka Radio Frequency!  Now that we've gotten that out of the way.

You can actually greatly improve the range by fairly simple measures.  It's a 27mhz antenna, not rocket science.  Let's take something like eBay: 172279815241, a decent 27mhz antenna.

Open up the TMCC base and connect a matching PL-259 connector to these pins, center to red, outside to green.  Obviously, you disconnect the internal antenna.

Once again John, I believe you've nailed it. That is definitely within my skill level to accomplish. I'll just order up the pieces and get right on it. Thanks!

I'm off to try and run some trains and gather data for Dale and myself! No construction today.

The beauty of adding the external antenna is if the first one you pick doesn't give good enough results, you can go for higher gain antennas for additional range.  The TMCC CAB1 is a one-way conversation I'm 99% sure, so this is a simple comm link.

The 9db antenna we added to our club Legacy base did wonders for the signal, no reason you can't do something similar with the TMCC base.

I added a "high gain" antenna to our TMCC system. Might not be "FCC legal", but I'll deal with THAT if, and when, an FCC inspector ever comes to the front door.

SMC "High Gain 11 db Antenna"  Model # SMCANT-DIFP11   Part #751-7694

The entire layout works MUCH better!

Well, that's a 2.4ghz antenna, we need a 27mhz antenna, a much different animal.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, that's a 2.4ghz antenna, we need a 27mhz antenna, a much different animal.

OK, but why does our TMCC system work so much better then?

If you're using it with the old TMCC base, and not the "Legacy lite" base, I have no idea why it works as it's simply a totally incorrect antenna.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

If you're using it with the old TMCC base, and not the "Legacy lite" base, I have no idea why it works as it's simply a totally incorrect antenna.

Then I don't dare tell you who recommended it!  The Legacy system is also installed on the layout.

Jack, are you using both the TMCC and Legacy bases? Are you still using the old Cab-1 remotes or just the Cab-2's.

Isn't to use the older cab1 why you tether the TMCC base to the Legacy? 

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

Jack, are you using both the TMCC and Legacy bases? Are you still using the old Cab-1 remotes or just the Cab-2's.

We use both; two Legacy Cab-2 hand-helds (with one Legacy base obviously), and three TMCC Cab-1 hand-helds. Plus anybody else that comes over with a Cab-1 hand-held. Both the "old" TMCC base as well as the Legacy base are hooked up at all times. The layout is also full MTH DCS with two TIU devizes in "super mode", with four DCS hand-helds.

And since that's the case, communications between the TMCC base and cab1 is still a possible issue. 

cjack posted:

And since that's the case, communications between the TMCC base and cab1 is still a possible issue. 

Why? The whole reason for installing that "high gain antenna" was to eliminated "hand-held to base" communications problems in TMCC, well prior to the Legacy installation. The SMC antenna sure seemed to improve things.

Let's let him wallow in his misconceptions and stick to the facts.  From the sounds of things, someone else actually did the work, and they'd be the guy to talk to for the facts.  A 2.4ghz antenna will certainly not be the optimum choice to improve 27mhz communications, only someone that has no knowledge of radio communications at all would believe that it is.

Elliot, I'd strongly advise you to ignore the ridiculous advice to buy a totally incorrect antenna to improve the communications between the TMCC base and the CAB1 handheld.

Hot Water posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

If you're using it with the old TMCC base, and not the "Legacy lite" base, I have no idea why it works as it's simply a totally incorrect antenna.

Then I don't dare tell you who recommended it!  The Legacy system is also installed on the layout.

I don't really care who recommended it, it's totally wrong.  However, I suspect the real issue is your misunderstanding of what is actually in use and how it's used.  The whole "I don't dare" comment is absurd on it's face.

The bottom line is, if I may, is to get an "CB", "11 Meter" or 27 MHz antenna and connect it as shown by GRJ's posting of the schematic of the TMCC base electronics.

If someone actually did connect a 2.4GHz antenna internally to a TMCC base, it may well help with the reception just by the bulk of it, but then so would a random length or wire. In fact if one were to use a length of wire, make it about 102 inches long and string it out.

Don't worry John, after all these years on the forum, I know who to listen to based on the subject. You and a few other guys, keep me out of trouble with all things electronic related.

If I need to know about an engine, steam or diesel, or something about real railroads, that's where Jack's expertise is. Few if any have more experience in those areas.

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

If I need to know about an engine, steam or diesel, or something about real railroads, that's where Jack's expertise is. Few if any have more experience in those areas.

And you'll notice I don't pontificate on those topics.

My layout is 30' x 46' with a side room that is 13'x 17'. I have no more issues with my TMCC. I added a wire to the base and ran it up to the ceiling and down all of the isles for the layout. It is just an insulated black 22 gauge wire...my ceiling is black and no one can see this wire. Contact me thru my email if you want more info.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

If I need to know about an engine, steam or diesel, or something about real railroads, that's where Jack's expertise is. Few if any have more experience in those areas.

And you'll notice I don't pontificate on those topics.

I know my place as well, and try to avoid trouble.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Open up the TMCC base and connect a matching PL-259 connector to these pins, center to red, outside to green.  Obviously, you disconnect the internal antenna.

 The socket(female) connector for the PL-259 plug is, of course,(naturally) the SO-239.

Roger's idea will probably work as well, while the antenna is not tuned, the proximity of it probably makes up for that.

I measured 39" for the existing Base antenna wire length, and that is about 1/11th of a wavelength - not anything remotely tuned to 11 meters (433") or a nice fractional submultiple like 2 or 4.

A "proper" 1/4 wavelength whip would be 9' long, but most whip antennas have some tuning/loading to allow a shorter element.  The whip on my truck is 58" and I can't tell if there is a loading coil inside the plastic base below the whip.  My antenna analyzer says it is peaked at 11 meters, so something is going on inside the base.

There should be an orientation factor regarding how the CAB-1 antenna is pointed with respect to the flat coil in the Base, but I don't understand enough antenna theory to figure out what is best.

Well, I was going to upload a photo of the antenna from a Command Base, but the upload isn't working for me.....

Roger, is that wire connected to the receiver antenna inside the Base, or is it hooked to the external thumbscrew?