N&W 611 and new Amtrak policy

SAD, VERY SAD day for ALL excursions!

I think Milw 261 will still be running its Duluth excursion this summer because although they use Amtrak insurance, they work with BNSF who is still steam and excursion friendly. But doesn’t that train rent a diesel and coaches from Amtrak in addition to the 261 and other cars? UP 844 can still run out of Denver because that is their own operation and not Amtrak. But it will suck for us in the east and northeast because rare mileage excursions like the Autumn Express will most likely end under this new policy and 611 will probably not be able to operate excursions anywhere with NS and now Amtrak being anti excursion. I guess Bennett Levin’s train will still run this May from Philly to Altoona with rare mileage through Lock Haven.

As far as I know, passenger operations on the Arkansas and Missouri are unaffected!  Come take a ride behind vintage Alcos and meet me in person at the JRM Museum!    

Mitch 

Already, private car owners, most of whom have wealth and at least some influence, are calling their elected officials.  I think everything will work out all right in the end.

Number 90 posted:

Already, private car owners, most of whom have wealth and at least some influence, are calling their elected officials.  I think everything will work out all right in the end.

I like your optimism but I do not share your opinion. 

The J can run as long as we find someplace other than Norfolk Southern tracks to run her. They will haul her anywhere without passengers.

Scott Smith

Scott, where can 611 run besides NS? It has pulled short trips at the NCTM.

scott.smith posted:

The J can run as long as we find someplace other than Norfolk Southern tracks to run her. They will haul her anywhere without passengers.

Scott Smith

 

Scott, there in lies the rub. While NS will, for now, allow the 611 to run over its system on ferry moves...a few issues still remain. Issue number one is insurance. Without insurance trips will not run. Full Stop.  Second, if and when you have that very expensive insurance you need passenger cars. With Amtrak's recent policy change, getting passenger cars to your location to run excursions with will be extremely difficult if not impossible. Finally, with a locomotive the size of 611, finding somewhere to run it will also be extremely difficult if not impossible. In my opinion, when the current work on the 611 is completed she will return to the VMT. Unfortunately that is where she will stay put until Amtrak changes their policy. Without Amtrak's insurance umbrella and the ability to move privately owned passenger cars over their system; there is no feasible way to operate the locomotive in excursion service IMHO.

I’m afraid that was going to happen. VMT is in a pickle now. They restored 611 for 3 years of excursions and now it can’t operate any more because both NS and Amtrak have become anti excursion. This year there will only be a few places to ride long steam excursions in the eastern US. TVRM Summerville trips and RBMN 425 Reading to Jim Thorpe and Pittston to Jim Thorpe in the fall. If VMT can’t get affordable insurance, and permission from NS then they can’t run and 611 will sit at the VMT.

I wanted to see/ride behind the RBMN 425, but could find no information on its runs this year - not getting overhauled, is it?  Any tips?

David

They haven’t announced anything yet. It usually runs longer excursions in the fall. Like Reading to Jim Thorpe and Pittston or Penobscot to Jim Thorpe. They have run 425 in the spring and summer as well. They have their RDC schedule up. Reading to Jim Thorpe starting May 28. I’m going on a photo freight from Port Clinton to Hazleton area May 5 pulled by two MP15 diesels. Only so many tickets left.

Amtrak owns very little track mostly the northeast corridor , I fail to see how their new policy that they will no longer run excursions relates to class one and short line operations. Most steam  excursions have nothing to do with them.

Rick Rubino posted:

Amtrak owns very little track mostly the northeast corridor , I fail to see how their new policy that they will no longer run excursions relates to class one and short line operations.

Well, because the Class 1 railroads have demanded such high amounts of liability insurance coverage that none of the sponsoring organizations previously operating steam and/or diesel excursions, are able to afford such insurance (in excess of of 500 million dollars liability coverage now). Thus ALL excursions, steam and/or diesel, that operate on any Class 1 railroad, have previously been operated under the Amtrak liability insurance coverage, and are thus "Amtrak Special Trains".

Most steam  excursions have nothing to do with them.

Wrong! Every main line steam excursion, except for the UP and previous NS trips, are operated as an "Amtrak Special Train" under the Amtrak insurance umbrella. Since NS no longer "operates the 21st Century Steam Program Specials", there are no longer ANY "excursions" on the NS!

Well, because the Class 1 railroads have demanded such high amounts of liability insurance coverage that none of the sponsoring organizations previously operating steam and/or diesel excursions, are able to afford such insurance (in excess of of 500 million dollars liability coverage now). Thus ALL excursions, steam and/or diesel, that operate on any Class 1 railroad, have previously been operated under the Amtrak liability insurance coverage, and are thus "Amtrak Special Trains".

Which brings up a thought.  The one thing I haven't seen covered in all this is:

Will Amtrak continue to make their insurance available to independent excursions/trips on freight railroads?

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

Well, because the Class 1 railroads have demanded such high amounts of liability insurance coverage that none of the sponsoring organizations previously operating steam and/or diesel excursions, are able to afford such insurance (in excess of of 500 million dollars liability coverage now). Thus ALL excursions, steam and/or diesel, that operate on any Class 1 railroad, have previously been operated under the Amtrak liability insurance coverage, and are thus "Amtrak Special Trains".

Which brings up a thought.  The one thing I haven't seen covered in all this is:

Will Amtrak continue to make their insurance available to independent excursions/trips on freight railroads?

Certainly doesn't appear that way, since Amtrak has already sent a letter of rejection to the Friends of SP 4449, in response for a fall steam excursion this year.

Rusty

Let's face it: THE PARTY'S OVER!  

Friends of the 261 got the same letter. Their June excursions are tentatively cancelled. 

Could there be an option of the big names in excursion steam getting together to share the financial burden of insurance coverage? Seems like a possibility but also a possible logistical nightmare. 

Matt Makens posted:

Friends of the 261 got the same letter. Their June excursions are tentatively cancelled. 

Could there be an option of the big names in excursion steam getting together to share the financial burden of insurance coverage?

Such a plan was discussed and attempted many, many years ago. The problem was, too many disjointed groups, and the insurance company/companies will NOT layer/bundle many different potential policy holders together. Plus, all this was back when the freight railroads required only about 50 million dollars of liability insurance. Now it is about 500 million dollars of coverage.

Seems like a possibility but also a possible logistical nightmare. 

Tinplate Art posted:

Let's face it: THE PARTY'S OVER!  

Unless something massive changes no private car move just about kills everything. My dream of having my own OBS car in my backyard just got more realistic. 

Does the 261 have any non-Amtrak options to operate? Didn’t they run trips on a short line before? 611 will most likely sit at the VMT now. Most mainline steam is officially dead with Anderson’s decision. And most rare mileage trips on NS and other class 1’s. Here’s a long shot. Would NJT host excursions again? Such as Hoboken to Port Jervis, even with diesel power? PTC just makes things more complicated now. You’re better off just riding a normal scheduled run on Amtrak or commuter railroad. And go to Strasburg, Port Clinton, PA, Durango, Chama, Denver with 844, TVRM, GSMR, etc. for a steam fix. Those railroads are NOT affected by Amtrak’s decision. The heyday of mainline excursions from 1950’s to 1994 is over. Groups that depended on excursions for revenue will have to find other ways. UP will be the only one allowing excursions and that means just one, the 844 Denver to Cheyenne run in July. Better go see the E8’s before they are parked forever. I saw them go through Macungie on a 4 day trip in Nov 2007. I saw the Amtrak Autumn Express at Macungie in Oct 2016. I feel the future and younger CEO’s are simply going to be anti excursion because of fear of the unknown, fear of something going wrong.

Tinplate Art posted:

Let's face it: THE PARTY'S OVER!  

Ding Ding Ding 

There will NEVER be a repeat of the glory days of the 1950’s to 1994! Ever! Back then all it took was a phone call or letter to the railroad and the deal was pretty much done. The trip was approved. Now, not so much. Even some non class 1 railroads are anti excursion like Genesee and Wyoming. They wouldn’t allow any public steam excursions on the Ohio Central after they bought it from Jerry. It’s all about lawyers. Our country is sue happy. People sue for the money. So, big railroads are leery of taking any unesessary risks. That includes excursions. Let’s face it, the era of non regularly scheduled passenger trains that the public can ride on class 1’s in the US is basically over. Except for 844’s excursion and Bennett Levin’s final E8 excursion in PA next month. And maybe 261 if they don’t cancel, and 765 in Illinois. The UK has a slew of steam excursions on the main lines this year. Of course you’ll need a plane ticket and passport. Reading and Northern, TVRM, and GSMR will be the only big steam players in the east this year. That offer trips longer than 9 miles RT.

Question: Is the liability rate lower for diesel vs steam, or is that moot in that most class 1's usually require diesels for backup power/braking?

Tinplate Art posted:

Question: Is the liability rate lower for diesel vs steam, or is that moot in that most class 1's usually require diesels for backup power/braking?

No. The liability insurance requirement is all about passenger coverage, regardless whether steam, diesel, or electric motive power. Also, "most class 1's" do NOT "require diesels for backup power/braking". The Amtrak diesel is there in order to provide 480 volt, three phase AC HEP for the passenger cars. When the Norfolk Southern was operating their 21st Century Steam Specials, the 611 rarely had diesel units, and the train had its own power car for HEP.

HOT WATER: THANK YOU! I guess I should has specified backup power, and I had forgotten about the need for HEP if there was no power car.

I guess we can whine all we want but that won't change things. We need to let Amtrak and our elected representatives know how we feel. In a nice, polite and professional way. Already the state of WV is fighting this, losing the New River Train will hurt tourism. But, WV already has tourist lines like Durbin and Greenbrier Valley, Cass, Potomac Eagle, etc. But Elkins is 189 miles from Huntington. The loss of the New River excursions will hurt Huntington's tourism. I suppose no more rare mileage Autumn Express trips either from NY, Philly, etc. I can see that AARPCO isn't ready to give up without a fight. They plan to fight this.

Well, I guess we are all going to have to invade England!

A couple of photos from my friend taken this past weekend.

OK, how is Amtrak itself insured?  If they are using an ouside service, maybe they said:  NO!

I was in Galveston yesterday watching the parade of tall ships.  As I was going west on Seawall, there were crowds.  Great!  But too many had no situational awareness.

The ships were in the Gulf.  Seawall is a public street.  Now, combine this in a privately owned ROW?

With a lack of civility and personal responsibility today, plus the legal situation, whould I have a charter on my railroad.  Hades NO!

Hot Water posted:

 

Every main line steam excursion, except for the UP and previous NS trips, are operated as an "Amtrak Special Train" under the Amtrak insurance umbrella. Since NS no longer "operates the 21st Century Steam Program Specials", there are no longer ANY "excursions" on the NS!

 

Yeah, when I rode the ferry move to Tacoma and the main excursion up Stampede Pass behind 4449 in 2011 (man, that was 7 years ago?) , it was quite clear to everyone on board that all these moves were Amtrak runs, just with a few private (Amtrak certified) private cars in the consist. I walked the entire length of the train once and found a bunch of Amtrak chair cars in the center, and Amtrak employees all over the place getting tuff done.

Anyone who can own private varnish has a lot of coin on hand, and therefore many private car owners likely have some pull somewhere. Heck, Wall Street Journal recently had an article on private car owners and a couple of them they talked with were what people from the South would call, "stupid rich," in regard to how much $$$ they have. Really, all you need is a few key donors to the campaign fund from the last election (regardless who's in office at the time) to raise a stink to get the wheels greased.

But if this is the end of such trips, I actually feel bad for those who put that much coin into private cars that might never be coupled to an Amtrak train again. Some folks made a living off renting their varnish to people for trips and excursions. The California Zephyr Railcar Charters, for example, went up and down the West Coast all the time. I'd often see one or all their cars tacked onto the end of the Coast Starlight, going to or from an event. Rode their cars three times and talked to the owner once on the Leavenworth Snow Train (which I guess they won't have anymore either?). This was his livelihood. I'd heard he'd sold the cars to someone much further East, but looking at their website it appears that deal went through after all as they still have trips in the original area listed.

It'd be such a shame if all that is dead and gone now...

Instead of whining about what is no longer available, how about a show of support this year for those operations that still boil water for our entertainment?
I consider a 2-2.5 hour drive enough for a day trip, so the following railroads will get my attention:
Everett RR: (Seriously, this is one of the best outfits in the country) My recommendation is to ride or chase an "Ice Cream Special" to Roaring Spring. 2-6-0 #11 puts on a great show on the 1.6% through McKee's Gap.

Walkersville Southern: 3 weekends (May-June) with Jeddo Coal #85 0-4-0T, the "railfan special" runs during p.m. sweet light, has runbys, and covers seldom-used trackage.

Steam into History:  cool historical subject, new whistle on loco sounded great last year, still lots of photo props along old PRR route.

Strasburg: this may be the year to do a photo freight or a charter, still a great place , go in off-peak times to avoid crowds.
Reading & Northern: I look forward to the steam trip I didn't get last year because of illness, I'm hoping for 2102, but will take a 425 trip this fall for sure.
One of the best ways to keep tabs on the R&N is go to their website, rbmnrr.com, scroll to the bottom of the news section, and download their employee magazines, which are quite well-done.

I would hope to find time to visit diesel operations such as Potomac Eagle, Allentown & Auburn, Colebrookdale Line, Stewartstown,and the Middletown & Hummelstown?

And Wilmington and Western, they run a lot of diesel trips but their Hockessin Fireworks special on July 4 is steam powered! That’s a 20 mile round trip. I rode it several years ago. You will ride back in the dark though. And a diesel switcher pulled us back but it was #58 on the way up. They have a nice set of DL&W Boonton coaches painted blue and ex-PRR coach turned into an open sided coach. And Everett is running a 27 mile round trip on April 21 and Sept 15 with #11. About the RBMN longer excursions, they tend to sell out so you need to order tickets well in advance. That includes the RDC runs and the fall runs especially with 425. New Hope has #40 back but their schedule is diesel for a while. Black River #60 might be running, and #142 at Phillipsburg, NJ. Whippany has steam and the Alco C424 pulling trains in opposite directions this July for Tri State Railfest. Now, I have to ask this, who insures tourist trains such as these? How is it different than class 1 railroads? And is all that older equipment, such as open window coaches with plain friction bearings allowed to operate on short lines but not on class 1’s anymore, since 1994 or so? For example, TVRM’s open window coaches couldn’t be used on the NS excursions when they ran. I would say though that Amtrak’s Autumn Express was probably the safest excursion train to run on a class 1, that is one that the class 1 railroad would most likely say yes to. Not to say that Fort Wayne and VMT weren’t reliable, NS did host several excursions with all 3 groups but I guess freight traffic is on the rise or the new CEO of NS is simply not as excursion friendly as Wick was or NS just doesn’t want to deal with the liability anymore. And yes if you have a passport and are willing to fly, the UK has multiple mainline steam excursions. I think their country is less sue happy than the US and the major railways are more willing to host excursions. I think the Flying Scotsman and others are running this year. Then, there’s the 844 from Denver, the 2 big ng steam railroads in Colorado, and that Rio Grande Scenic. TVRM and Grand Canyon are running several long steam trips this year. The Valley RR in Essex, CT is also another great steam operation. And someday the 2102, B&M 3713, and C&O 1309 will run again. The 3713 and 1309 were never used in tourist service before.

In the UK as part of a wave of privatization British Rail was restructured. The right of way (like highways in the country) is owned by the government and all operations are done by private companies. When my wife was last there she had a choice of three different companies covering the same route with different prices and amenities.

They run so much steam because its like a highway here--you need to meet standards for safety and required equipment and you can use the "highway".

Considering the 2 to 2.5 hour drive rule,  the Texas State RR is iffy from Houston.  But do I really want to battle I 69/US 59 to get there?

Now a UK question?  If I had my historic train ready to roll, do I pay a toll, and call ahead for time slot?

In the US the big freight railroads are privately owned and they control access to their tracks. They can deny access to anybody. You need to buy your own railroad to run your steam engine on. Or negotiate trackage rights with a short line or regional. Outfits like Fort Wayne are at the mercy of NS to move 765 anywhere, and at the mercy of railroads willing to host public excursions. CVSR has hosted 765 for the past several years and Metra seems to not mind excursions. It's Amtrak that's the problem, and maybe freight railroads like NS, and G&W. NS will no longer insure excursions, and G&W has an anti excursion attitude. I really wish someone would run an excursion on the former Octoraro lines in southeastern PA, such as west of Chadds Ford or Greenville, DE to Modena. But I don't think East Penn Railroad would do it.

Borden Tunnel posted:

 

I would hope to find time to visit diesel operations such as Potomac Eagle, Allentown & Auburn, Colebrookdale Line, Stewartstown,and the Middletown & Hummelstown?

 

The Allentown and Auburn has Jeddo Coal 85 coming the 6/30, 7/1, 7/7, and 7/8

We also have this for a possibility one day, depending on what is found when we take it apart: 

I know she's not a berkshire, pacific, or northern, but we are excited to have her join us!