Need some Layout advice

Well, you came to the right place.  I scanned a copy of your floor plan, but I don't have scarm, so perhaps post a scan of your proposed layout.  I can't tell where your steps are to get to the second floor, so perhaps draw that on the plan below. 

Just helping here to get the ball rolling.  I think you should be able to get some nice long runs in the area that you have. 

Probably the best single piece of advice is to get a copy of John Armstrong's Track Planning for Realistic Operation. Until you get your copy, here are some basic thoughts:

I would suggest not starting with a table dimension as you have done here with given outside aisles. Instead, create an available space diagram that shows the stairway-opening rectangle and which side it enters the room on. If there are any windows or doors in the walls, show those, as well as anything else you need to retain access to, any supports in the middle of the room, reduced overhead clearances--you get the idea.

Next, select the minimum radius you will need for your biggest rolling stock. If you can't get what you want in your space because it's too big, you can always create a double standard--a portion of the layout with big curves where those pieces can run, but a more complex and interesting layout for the rest of your stuff. Choose aisle width standards, too. 4' is over generous IMO. It also depends on how many people will operate at once.

Next, list what kinds of operations you want. You mention a turntable and roundhouse and bridges, but what else? Armstrong lists about a dozen things, such as short and long passenger trains, medium and long through freights, local freight, commuter trains, route and terminal switching, and engine terminal movements. Coal hoppers work best with loop-type plans, where loads move one direction and empties the other. Closed top and passenger traffic work better with reversing loops or dogbones, where cars must return from the direction they went. Are there specific scenes on specific railroads you would like to capture, including iconic buildings? Do you have operating accessories that need a home?

Armstrong argues the best layout designs have more "edge" and less "middle," are narrow enough to reach to the rear for maintenance, and minimize curvature, especially "blobs:" reversing loops. Ideally, you can follow a train for its entire run with backtracking or ducking under. This usually results in what he termed an along-the-wall-walk-in plan, often with a spiral central peninsula.

A double-track main will let you run multiple trains. Wrapping it around the room more than once will give a longer run. If you can make a portion triple track, you can have a taste of what single-track railroading is like on that center track. When the B&O's PR department built an O-gauge layout circa 1940, that's what they did, to showcase the operating excitement on the East End of their Cumberland Division.

Track planning is a lot of fun in itself. Enjoy this part of the hobby, too.

Your space is well beyond most published plans. Give more thought to what you want from the layout, and share that here. Folks here might be better able to help then.

Updated attachments as well as tried to draw stairs.

Personally, I would not waste a large piece of layout on an engine terminal that could go inside the mainline unless that was my absolute top priority for viewing up front.  Your placement reduces your mainline length dramatically. Also, is the top of the stair to the left or right?

The stairs are to the right. The come up from the bottom and enter to the right of the proposed baseboard.

I do not have anything as far as the layout goes set in stone. So there is nothing that I am apposed to changing. I am a very visual learner and since there is not layouts in place remotely close to me, nor any local clubs to glean any knowledge from, I came here....

To answer the questions above...

My baseboard is certainly not set in stone, but it is a representation of the useable area I have to work with. Nothing has been built and no track has been ordered. So everything is easily modified at this point. The bottom 24' section is up against a wall so I can have a backdrop and some of my scenery doesn't have to be 3D. The left 24' section is 4' from the left wall. There are two windows there that I will need access to. The 20' section is 4' from the wall as well. I have two Mini Split units on the wall that I need access to. The top 8' section ( The shorter part of the U) has to end there because the is an attic door with stairs that I will need to be accessed. The U part is where the stairs come up. You come up the stairs with your back to the layout. The opposite wall has two windows that need to be accessed. So I have a few feet at most to move closer to the walls but would still need some space to move around. I can provide more detailed pictures, but would need some time to prepare those and upload.

I would like to be able to run multiple trains.... most likely just 2 at a time. I am the only train guy I know personally so I don't see the need to be able to run more than that at once. I do plan on running an upper level of track. I would like that to be just a reversing loop single track.

I would like to have a roundhouse, turntable and a diesel service facility. Location is not set in stone.

I am not modeling any specific era and am not looking to be prototypical necessarily. Im just a guy who enjoys running model trains and am excited I have a place to setup permanently.

Im also not a skilled carpenter so since I will be the sole person constructing this entire deal... I have to work within my skill level. I am a complete newby to building a layout. I have always just run my trains during the holidays or when I had a spot I could put an oval of track. Ive been collecting and using my trains since I was 23 years old. I have no clue how to wire a layout, setup power districts, wire up switches or isolate track blocks. The only reason I even know those terms is that I have books on the subject and I read a lot of posts. Since I am a visual kinda guy... I am having a hard time understanding how to do it correctly from an old black in white photo in a book.

I realize that I may not have the space to have everything. I am almost 50 now, so who knows how long I have left I definitely don't want to rush anything, but I feel the pressure internally to do something.... My trains have been in the boxes way too long... some 20 years just waiting for a permanent layout. I am starting to feel like this will never happen and I am letting my fear of not knowing what the heck I am doing get in the way of even starting.

Tom

Submitting a rough sketch could make it easier to understand the current situation.

@Godale03 posted:

Im also not a skilled carpenter so since I will be the sole person constructing this entire deal... I have to work within my skill level. I am a complete newby to building a layout. I have always just run my trains during the holidays or when I had a spot I could put an oval of track. Ive been collecting and using my trains since I was 23 years old. I have no clue how to wire a layout, setup power districts, wire up switches or isolate track blocks. The only reason I even know those terms is that I have books on the subject and I read a lot of posts. Since I am a visual kinda guy... I am having a hard time understanding how to do it correctly from an old black in white photo in a book.

I realize that I may not have the space to have everything. I am almost 50 now, so who knows how long I have left I definitely don't want to rush anything, but I feel the pressure internally to do something.... My trains have been in the boxes way too long... some 20 years just waiting for a permanent layout. I am starting to feel like this will never happen and I am letting my fear of not knowing what the heck I am doing get in the way of even starting.

Tom

Since you keep mentioning youre a "visual" type of guy, and i agree book lengthy text and blurry photos dont always cut it, have you tried some you-tube searches.?  There are a number of videos out there on building benchwork, wiring etc.  Some good and some, well...not so good.  But OGR's you tube site has uploaded some of Jim Barrett's videos which are very methodical in his explanations. Or maybe you can still order the Barrett Backshop video series?  Just remember, when doing carpentry, measure 2x, cut once, and keep your thumb out from between the hammer and nail (or screw and driver).

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Kjbq7Rvsg42QuKNq5

You have a nice space there. With long runs like you could have, you could consider a point to point layout with a reverse loop at each end and use the long runs to go from one elevation to another. In other words, if you don't mind working toward multi elevations you could have a town and yard at one level and another at a second level. My layout is just one big loop with reverse loops on each end and two elevation changes in each direction. inside the reverse loops are a yard each. This allows me to continuously run trains and bring one into a yard when I want to stop one. The trade off is you have a lot of track down. Elevation changes need long runs and you have them. Whatever you decide, I would make a good plan with measurements for things like clearances, etc. The video above shows three levels of track. The track plan is just one big loop and all trains are on the same track. With your space you could consider something like this. I use a Legacy system and can run as many as 4-5 trains with spacing between them. If you want some help in designing something like this, my contact information is on my profile. I am retired and am available most times. Bill

@Farmall-Joe posted:

Since you keep mentioning youre a "visual" type of guy, and i agree book lengthy text and blurry photos dont always cut it, have you tried some you-tube searches.?  There are a number of videos out there on building benchwork, wiring etc.  Some good and some, well...not so good.  But OGR's you tube site has uploaded some of Jim Barrett's videos which are very methodical in his explanations. Or maybe you can still order the Barrett Backshop video series?  Just remember, when doing carpentry, measure 2x, cut once, and keep your thumb out from between the hammer and nail (or screw and driver).

I have watched a number of videos. You are right, some are helpful and some are not. I have learned some via that route. Youtube is a valuable resource. The only issue with Youtube videos is I can't  stop and ask a question and most of the videos are years old so my posted questions usually go unanswered.

@Bill Park posted:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Kjbq7Rvsg42QuKNq5

You have a nice space there. With long runs like you could have, you could consider a point to point layout with a reverse loop at each end and use the long runs to go from one elevation to another. In other words, if you don't mind working toward multi elevations you could have a town and yard at one level and another at a second level. My layout is just one big loop with reverse loops on each end and two elevation changes in each direction. inside the reverse loops are a yard each. This allows me to continuously run trains and bring one into a yard when I want to stop one. The trade off is you have a lot of track down. Elevation changes need long runs and you have them. Whatever you decide, I would make a good plan with measurements for things like clearances, etc. The video above shows three levels of track. The track plan is just one big loop and all trains are on the same track. With your space you could consider something like this. I use a Legacy system and can run as many as 4-5 trains with spacing between them. If you want some help in designing something like this, my contact information is on my profile. I am retired and am available most times. Bill

Hey Bill!

Thank you, I appreciate it. I am at work currently so I will watch your video when I get home this evening. I would love any advise you can provide.

I am not looking for someone to design my layout or anything.... there are places to go where I could pay for that if I really wanted too.... I want to enjoy this part of it too. My problems are just coming up with the best use of the available space... then learning how to model interlocks and other aspects of the layout. Just getting my mainlines and where to put the turntable is where my focus is on. Building something so I can at least run trains while I continue to expand.

So I need to know where to start. I know layouts are not built in days, months or even years. So I am in it for the long haul. So... do I just start with the outside loop so I can at least run trains while my layout grows, or do I just plan and save and buy all the track at once... which doesn't seem like the smartest route because track is expensive. With Atlas it may not even be available.... the other obstacle. If I can come up with the biggest loop I can fit and get it laid out, I can at least get the track on order. I may be waiting over a year to get Atlas track. I don't want to start laying track just to lay it and then have to rip it back up. I would like to get a foundation I can build off of. I really just would like advise (and pictures if possible) of the best way you guys that have the experience building layouts would best use the space. I know everyone will have a slightly different view, but this is where it would be nice to have someone local that could walk through the space with me and advise on the best use of available space. The baseboard I have posted is about it as far as space, but the shape doesn't have to be what it is.... if that makes sense?

My intention here was for you to maybe think outside the box a little since you have so much space. You have space enough to have your trains go places and return making it a bit more interesting. I was never afraid to incorporate different levels because of the interest it adds. In the video I posted, as it starts out, the reverse loop is partially visible, The foreground track and the one where the I-5 is coming out on forms the reverse loop. There is another one on a lower level on the other side of the layout. I have incorporated passing tracks along the way to add more interest. The great thing about our hobby is you get to do it your way.  Bill

  Looking at your room. Have you considered running your mainline above the stairs coming up. With the layout placed high enough. It wouldn’t be considered a duckunder. Also maybe a good spot to place your mentioned bridges. It certainly would increase the length and separation of tracks on the mainline. The turntable could reside inside it.
Nothing wrong with wanting or owning a Big Boy. But if you go that route it pretty much dictates the rest of the layout as far as design. Curve size, turntable length, roundhouse stall length and the consist itself. To look somewhat correct you need a decent length train to go with it.

I’m in the Bill Park camp of the one long mainline that creates a long run with the capability of running multiple trains on it. Years ago this would never have been considered. But with the newer trains. Speed control becomes your friend.

Speaking of You Tube. I’ve watched some from  mpeterll.  Builds layout professionally. Some are based on design from the customers wants. Good watch as he shows how he tweaks the design and in the end usually comes up with a pretty good plan.

@Bill Park posted:

My intention here was for you to maybe think outside the box a little since you have so much space. You have space enough to have your trains go places and return making it a bit more interesting. I was never afraid to incorporate different levels because of the interest it adds. In the video I posted, as it starts out, the reverse loop is partially visible, The foreground track and the one where the I-5 is coming out on forms the reverse loop. There is another one on a lower level on the other side of the layout. I have incorporated passing tracks along the way to add more interest. The great thing about our hobby is you get to do it your way.  Bill

Ok, I think I understand. I just have to figure out how to make that all happen. Trial and error I guess

So, I know the available space I have in the room. The above plans were about the best my feeble imagination could muster... I don't have a layout I can study in person, or take pictures at different angles to understand how its done... and then have the ability to go back and look again if I get stuck. There are a ton of videos of guys showing the layouts but all you get is a quick pan of the layout and you mis the finite details. I know it seems as if I am whining.... an I apologize if it comes off that way. Certainly I am not the first modeler to have to come up with a design without actually seeing a real layout. Like so many YouTubers out there, they all belong to clubs and had help building and designing their layouts. I do not have that luxury and with this being my first layout ever, its overwhelming to say the least. I guess I thought based on the videos and books it would be an easier time. Heck I don't know enough about running mulitple trains to even come up with a basic design. As a few of you guys have said I am wasting space already. I have lots of books with layout designs but nothing for the size layout space that I have.  The above took me several attempts and hours of time.... I wish I was kidding.... that is the best I can come up with. I tried working with an O91 atlas curve... but I could not get it to loop around and fit in the table space.... Then I have the O81 curve in the middle.... is this not the right approach to designing a layout with multiple mainlines?

I have the bigboy already... have had it for a few years now.

If you are ok with it, I will fool around with a design for you. A place you can start from. It will be several ideas, maybe a couple of drawings. Let me know, its a fun thing for me to do.

   I thought this was a good watch the other night. It’s a 3 rail layout design based in an attic. Pretty interesting as to how the process evolves.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=2X...;si=W1SjJCBQo_ufYvTy

Tom,

For a slight diversion I would suggest that you get the proper lubricants; set up a test track; clean the engines; lubricate them; and test them. You’ll be surprised by how your mind will begin working overtime during the process.
Jay

Tom, here's what I got from your description. There are samples of O-72, O-81 and O-90 curves. Ignore the yellow slats, they are just there to keep the center rail 3.5" or so from the edges. Note that the O-81 is a tight fit in the bottom right. I saw that the opening for the stairway of 8' 8". Is that a hard number or can you shrink it enough for the O-81 to fit?

@DoubleDAZ posted:

Tom, here's what I got from your description. There are samples of O-72, O-81 and O-90 curves. Ignore the yellow slats, they are just there to keep the center rail 3.5" or so from the edges. Note that the O-81 is a tight fit in the bottom right. I saw that the opening for the stairway of 8' 8". Is that a hard number or can you shrink it enough for the O-81 to fit?

Wow Double Daz!  that looks awesome!! I have wiggle room on the 8'8" not much but definitely have a buffer I can look at... a reference I can go back to. Someone said earlier that 4' may be more room between the wall and the layout so I have some room to work their as well. These are the kinds of advice and suggestions I was looking for. If I can create more layout room and move it a little closer to the wall I can definitely do that.

I know I am going to get laughed at for admitting this... but I was trying to do the whole thing in on diameter curves and after O90 I went 1 lower and went to O81. So basically I have to mix and match diameters to get it to work correctly? How did you know which size curve to use? Thank you!!

Tom

@Bill Park posted:

If you are ok with it, I will fool around with a design for you. A place you can start from. It will be several ideas, maybe a couple of drawings. Let me know, its a fun thing for me to do.

Hey Bill,

Absolutely I would not mind at all. Being able to see your ideas on paper will help me learn and it will make more sense to see what you are thinking. It also helps that is being applied to the space I have to work with. Like I was telling Double Daz... I didn't even think about that I could use different diameter curves in the same loop of track... I figured that wouldn't work. I still have to learn how you figure out what diameter curves will work... but its a start.

Here are a few pictures of the room.

Wow. Amazing space. If it were mine, I would go all the way around the walls. The layout can be narrow where you need to maintain access to windows and mini splits, but to me the ability to come up the stairs into the middle of the layout is ideal.

Another idea to consider is to begin by building a small, simple, starter-type layout. That would give you skill and experience tackle a lifetime layout, you might learn more about what you really want in the big one, and you'd have a place to run some trains while building the big one.

@Ken Wing posted:

Wow. Amazing space. If it were mine, I would go all the way around the walls. The layout can be narrow where you need to maintain access to windows and mini splits, but to me the ability to come up the stairs into the middle of the layout is ideal.

Another idea to consider is to begin by building a small, simple, starter-type layout. That would give you skill and experience tackle a lifetime layout, you might learn more about what you really want in the big one, and you'd have a place to run some trains while building the big one.

Sound advice. Again... that is why I am reaching out here... I have thought about building something small and working up.... I just want to make sure I don't waste money.... Meaning I don't want to build a small starter layout only to rip it out when I want to move up.... if that makes sense? Would I be able to build something that I could add too... and not necessarily have to tear up as I go?

Hopefully the photos help... At least give everyone and idea of the space I am working with. The room minus the stairs is 30' wide by 40' deep. So the room is deeper than it is wider. The steps come up facing the room and that is the 40' length. I just need to keep access to the windows and mini splits when the need to be serviced.... have no idea how much that is... I figured 4' was enough?

Thank you for the compliment on the space! It took a long time to get it finished so that I could get ready for the layout.

Whew,  that's a really nice looking room you have there sir!

@Farmall-Joe posted:

Just remember, when doing carpentry, measure 2x, cut once, and keep your thumb out from between the hammer and nail (or screw and driver).

You missed keeping it away from the saw blade.

@c.sam posted:

Whew,  that's a really nice looking room you have there sir!

Thank you. The space was created strictly for my trains…. And my modest bourbon collection 😁

@Godale03 posted:

Here are a few pictures of the room.

Now that will be an Empire!

The single most important question I have for you is this. Do you want a single level layout with all track on a flat board or do you want various changes in grade? To me a flat layout where you see the trains go round and round hold my interest for about 30 minutes. On the other hand a layout with grades and different levels with hidden storage yards is 10 times more interesting. You have plenty of room for a turntable, roundhouse, passing sidings, towns and lots of rugged scenery. I don't know what track you want to use but I would suggest Gargraves Phantom Rail and Ross Custom switches. Benchwork could consist of 1x4's and 1/2 inch plywood. You will need to get and be adept at using a small circular saw and possibly a jigsaw. The layout can be built with drywall screws. No glue and no homasote. Try and find a book titled "Model Railroad Benchwork by Linn Westcott. You can find it on Amazon. He recommends what is called "Open Grid" construction. Grades should not exceed 2%. If you would like to chat further email me at: milt@paiger.org Here is one photo from my 37 year old layout. The layout measures 13x40 feet. What you see in the picture are four different levels. You have plenty of room to do similar things. Have fun. Building the layout is the best part of the hobby.

"I just want to make sure I don't waste money.... Meaning I don't want to build a small starter layout only to rip it out when I want to move up.... if that makes sense? Would I be able to build something that I could add too... and not necessarily have to tear up as I go?"

Yes and no. Let's assume for the moment that the lifetime layout will be narrow by the windows to maintain access. One way to get started would be to lay a double track mainline along that wall. Use flex track to put some very broad curves in there. Leave room for scenic treatment in front and behind the track. This would be able to be part of the lifetime layout. Use the O-81 and O-72 curves to turn the corners. Now, at each end, build a turnback loop of O-72 or even less to join the two tracks. These turn back loops are temporary, but they are what let you start running trains. As you build along the next wall of the lifetime layout, these can be moved back to the next corner, so you are running then along two walls. You may or may not end up using those two turnback curves in the final layout, but so what? It will take years to fill that room with layout. Who wants to wait that long to run trains? In addition, it is vital to check out construction by actual operation. This first section will be thoroughly checked out before you start laying other levels on top of it, or otherwise make it harder to figure out where the problem is and get to it to fix it. Believe me, we have all wasted time and money on our mistakes. It's called experience. You will, too. Don't worry about it.

Tom, some random thoughts.

Most folks can reach 30"-36", so if you have things further than that, you’ll probable want access hatches. Those can be removable platforms with buildings, landscapes, accessories, etc. Generally, that really only applies to tracks, but helps when landscaping too. Most try to keep their aisles around 36", so 2 people can pass more easily. 4’ is probably more than you need, but it sounds like you need space for a ladder to access the Mini Splits, so you need to keep that in mind.

Clearances between tracks are generally 3.5" in yards, 4.5" on mainlines (Atlas Dual Track bridge is 4.5") and 6" for large engines, like your Big Boy, depending the model. That means the clearance from the edge and wall might not be enough for the BB in the curves. A lot of folks just go with something like 6" to be safe and then narrow it for bridges, etc. Along that line, a lot of folks use numbered switches for crossover’s, etc.

Before you go too far, you need to really think about the turntable. You need to figure out what size you need for the engines that you plan to turn. You can’t just pick one from the library unless you’ve already checked its size relative to your engines. If you want to turn the BB, that will probably make the decision for you, 34" TT and 63" RH. You don’t have to size it for all your engines though. If you add a roundhouse, you need to look at the footprint with the TT to see where it will fit. Some makers have templates with enough info to create a footprint to move around to find the best place for it. The thing to note is the distance from the center of the TT, it applies regardless of the actual size of the TT, and the width of the box, determined by the number of stalls. Note that the outside stalls are short, without the 3" extension. The box can be shortened to 60" overall by moving the extension stalls to the side (see 15-stall). The size at the edges can be cheated because the footprint in a rectangle, but the actual RH isn’t at the corners. The point is you don’t need whisker tracks to design, just the footprint. I’ll edit this to add a new layout photo with examples.
https://altoonamodelworks.net/...tall-Round-House.pdf

I see you have it in the lower right nook, but there’s no RH or yard, so you need to think about space for that too, unless you just want a place to store and turn a few engines. TTs are for turning engines, reversing loops for turning trains and there are prototypes for just a TT w/o an RH or whiskers.

\

@triplex posted:

The single most important question I have for you is this. Do you want a single level layout with all track on a flat board or do you want various changes in grade? To me a flat layout where you see the trains go round and round hold my interest for about 30 minutes. On the other hand a layout with grades and different levels with hidden storage yards is 10 times more interesting. You have plenty of room for a turntable, roundhouse, passing sidings, towns and lots of rugged scenery. I don't know what track you want to use but I would suggest Gargraves Phantom Rail and Ross Custom switches. Benchwork could consist of 1x4's and 1/2 inch plywood. You will need to get and be adept at using a small circular saw and possibly a jigsaw. The layout can be built with drywall screws. No glue and no homasote. Try and find a book titled "Model Railroad Benchwork by Linn Westcott. You can find it on Amazon. He recommends what is called "Open Grid" construction. Grades should not exceed 2%. If you would like to chat further email me at: milt@paiger.org Here is one photo from my 37 year old layout. The layout measures 13x40 feet. What you see in the picture are four different levels. You have plenty of room to do similar things. Have fun. Building the layout is the best part of the hobby.

Hey Triplex!

That is one sweet layout!! Yes I would like to have different levels and grade changes on my layout. I think it is cool when I watch videos of trains disappear and then reappear on a different part of the track. So tunnels and at least a second level would be wonderful... I am not sure I have the skills yet, but I am certainly not afraid to get my hands dirty and use power tools. My problem is that I don't visualize very well. Seeing the pictures of your layout helps a ton! Wish you lived in MD so I could visit and be able to see your layout and ask you questions on how and why you built something a certain way. I was planning on using Atlas track and Ross switches. I like the "realistic" tie size on Atlas track but I am not opposed to Gargraves track either. I have never seen that brand in person. I was definitely looking forward to the layout build... but before I started posting here, I felt like I was trying to learn trigonometry again.

@DoubleDAZ posted:

Tom, some random thoughts.

Most folks can reach 30"-36", so if you have things further than that, you’ll probable want access hatches. Those can be removable platforms with buildings, landscapes, accessories, etc. Generally, that really only applies to tracks, but helps when landscaping too. Most try to keep their aisles around 36", so 2 people can pass more easily. 4’ is probably more than you need, but it sounds like you need space for a ladder to access the Mini Splits, so you need to keep that in mind.

Clearances between tracks are generally 3.5" in yards, 4.5" on mainlines (Atlas Dual Track bridge is 4.5") and 6" for large engines, like your Big Boy, depending the model. That means the clearance from the edge and wall might not be enough for the BB in the curves. A lot of folks just go with something like 6" to be safe and then narrow it for bridges, etc. Along that line, a lot of folks use numbered switches for crossover’s, etc.

Before you go too far, you need to really think about the turntable. You need to figure out what size you need for the engines that you plan to turn. You can’t just pick one from the library unless you’ve already checked its size relative to your engines. If you want to turn the BB, that will probably make the decision for you, 34" TT and 63" RH. You don’t have to size it for all your engines though. If you add a roundhouse, you need to look at the footprint with the TT to see where it will fit. Some makers have templates with enough info to create a footprint to move around to find the best place for it. The thing to note is the distance from the center of the TT, it applies regardless of the actual size of the TT, and the width of the box, determined by the number of stalls. Note that the outside stalls are short, without the 3" extension. The box can be shortened to 60" overall by moving the extension stalls to the side (see 15-stall). The size at the edges can be cheated because the footprint in a rectangle, but the actual RH isn’t at the corners. The point is you don’t need whisker tracks to design, just the footprint. I’ll edit this to add a new layout photo with examples.
https://altoonamodelworks.net/...tall-Round-House.pdf

I see you have it in the lower right nook, but there’s no RH or yard, so you need to think about space for that too, unless you just want a place to store and turn a few engines. TTs are for turning engines, reversing loops for turning trains and there are prototypes for just a TT w/o an RH or whiskers.

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Wow! that is alot information in that paragraph.... I had to read it twice! I definitely would like a roundhouse. I like the Altoona Modelworks one.... at least that is the one in all the videos I see online. I see what you mean when you are talking about making sure you have the space. I also see what others have been saying... that I can use the center of the layout for the TT. THank you for the spacing notes too. I had no idea. The bigboy that I have is a MTH premier from 2022... I think was the release version.... its the one with whistle steam. My second largest engine is a tie between the Lionel Legacy Challenger and the Lionel Legacy Veranda. As far as a turntable brand I am wondering between the one from Ross, or the Millhouse River Studios. I figured on needing the biggest one based on the videos I have watched. Thank you for all the info and for helping me with actual layouts mockups I can see.

There are probably hundreds of trackplans already designed and published in various magazines and/or on the internet.  Many are free to peruse, but for some, cost may be incurred to view.  Quite a few free ones have been posted on this forum over the years as well as on other model railroad fora; all you have to do is search.  Many are also available on Facebook (certain model railroad groups) and in various blogs maintained by modelers.  However, all this data will be meaningless to you until YOU DECIDE HOW YOU PLAN TO OPERATE YOUR TRAINS.

When it comes to operations, there are three authors I would highly recommend you search out and read: Frank Ellison (long gone, but wrote a great series of articles about operating his Delta Lines), John Armstrong (also a prolific author with numerous articles and publications, some of which can be found in public libraries, about track planning for successful operation), and John Allen who wrote a lot about his large (albeit HO scale) railroad, the Gorre and Daphetid (pronounced Gory and Defeated).

Finally, your decision making process will involve something referred to in the model world as "Givens and Druthers."  I can't locate that detailed info right now, but essentially it translates to "Limitations and Wants."  As an example, one of your limitations is available space and the stairway location in that space.  Another limitation is the window locations and air conditioner locations.  Some of your wants are to run a Big Boy and to have a roundhouse and turntable.  In addition, you will find detailed help with all of this in some NMRA Special Interest Groups if you decide to join the NMRA.  The groups I'm suggesting are the Layout Design SIG (LDsig) and the Operations SIG (OPsig).

I have attached some documents at the bottom which I hope will help you along on your quest.

Chuck

You have a  massive amount of space. I would say stop any planning or construction, find a copy of John Armstrong's, 'Track Planning for Realistic Operation', and read it cover to cover, several times.  While you may not be interested in 'realistic operation'  the wealth of information on why railroads did what they did, will help you to not make mistakes that will make operation too complicated, redundant, or too simple to become stale.  Maybe at some point you might want to do waybills and car routing like a real railroad, but the book will help in pointing out certain things a lot of modelers get wrong and end up ripping out, like where the turntable should go and why.   To have trains just  go in circles on this big of a layout, would be a crime.  Trains go from here to there and back again, and the only trains that have the same consist back and forth,  is a passenger train, loaded ore cars one way and the same empties the other as an exception.   With the space you have, in the book read up on a set up that includes loads out, empties in industries, with supplier on one side of a divider and plant on the other. can give real purpose to the whole empire.  Now if your enjoyment is just running them and circles are fine with you, great.  My layout is an around the room double track  where I  make circles and provide the rest with imagination, and I am happy to have that space to enjoy O gauge.

I took a few more pictures of the room. This time it shows the taped outlines of where I envision the table. Just in case it helps…. I have more room to expand to the other 2 windows opposite the stairs. There is almost 8' from the edge of the proposed table to the windows. So if you guys think I need to expand to make things work, I think I have the room.

Tom

Tom, I would start with the space you’ve designated and "cheat" if necessary. For example, if you need 1"-2" to make O-81 work, I’d cheat, at least temporarily, until you get close to a final design. That said, I’d probably cut the window side to 3’, although I do see that shelving unit if you plan some storage or showcase shelves along that wall.

Since you have access on 3 sides, you can increase elevations as you lay track away from the edges, like you saw in Bill’s video. I know I said 30"-36" reach, but as I alluded to, it really depends on where the track is. If you look at Bill’s 2nd and 3rd elevations, it doesn’t look like he can reach all the track. Of course, I can’t really tell in the video. I’m really curious to see what comes up with.

As far as building goes, here’s a link outlining some techniques. You may still want to look for some of the books that have been mentioned, but this is a good starting point.
https://www.nmra.org/beginners...3-building-benchwork

I’ve also seen a lot of folks Altoona RHs and Millhouse River Studio TTs. A lot of users will recommend GarGraves with Ross switches because Ross switches are arguably the best and GG is relatively affordable. However, Atlas is solid rail and is arguably quieter than others. GG will probably require more cutting, but I’d be inclined to cut others too in order to avoid small fitter pieces and the extra joints. Also, don’t compare retail prices without checking with them and online sellers for possible bulk discounts.

The hard part is going to be coming up with a design, then trying to add accessories to justify the operation. A lot of modelers already have an idea of what they want to model, be it a city, an area, an industry (logging, mining, etc.). There’s also a tendency to fill space with tracks and not leave room for landscaping. I'm guilty. I put in as many tracks as I can fit and leave it up to the user to say what they don’t want or where they want to put a building that has X/Y footprint. It’s an evolving process.

BTW, if you need any help with SCARM, don’t hesitate to ask or shoot me an email or PM.

I would do an around the walls type layout. You can easily narrow the table to 12 to 20" in front of the windows and minisplit to allow easy access. The walls without windows can have wider table for staging yards/industries with sidings/ towns. One corner could hold the turntable/engine maintenance area. The open area in the center could then have lounge area and a workbench/repair/maintenance center. There is a lot you can do in that space and still not have any reach problems or duckunders. I'm just suggesting to think "off the table", you don't have to have a big table taking up all your space to have a big, interesting layout! A lift out bridge could provide access to the attic door when needed.

It's me again. 37 years ago Steve Brenneisen the owner of Ross Custom Switches designed my layout. He will be at the York, PA show in October. Call him and ask him if he is still designing layouts for folks. He is an incredibly nice guy and the product he builds here in the US is second to none. I don't think Ross switches look that great with Atlas track. The Atlas track is nice, but not always available and their switches are poor compared to Ross. Also, their switch machines are huge and unattractive. If you reach Steve tell him the layout he designed for a guy in the Chicago area is still running daily. He also makes a great turntable.

You probably already know this.  So this is just a suggestion that has not been stated in this thread.

I found that if I could run trains as a break from working on the layout, it was more fun.

You might break up the project into a series of smaller projects, and be involved in every phase - track, wiring, structures, scenery, etc,  at the same time but on each phase separately.  So, finish the track work and wiring on phase 1 (10- 25% of the big plan)- then start track work and wiring for phase 2- while doing structures on Phase 1, etc.

I tried to do all of each phase at one time on 3 previous HO layouts.  I would get so discouraged at my poor trackwork and wiring, done on the entire layout first, and then stop working on it for months.  None ever ran.

If you designed a huge layout to fill the space, you might get bogged down in a tedious project- endless track laying, wiring and so on - but not RUNNING.  Trackwork and wiring alone on the entire layout of your planned size potentially could take months.

AND- you might actually makes some design changes to the whole plan because of what you find running on the first 10%.

@Ken Wing posted:

"I just want to make sure I don't waste money.... Meaning I don't want to build a small starter layout only to rip it out when I want to move up.... if that makes sense? Would I be able to build something that I could add too... and not necessarily have to tear up as I go?"

Yes and no. Let's assume for the moment that the lifetime layout will be narrow by the windows to maintain access. One way to get started would be to lay a double track mainline along that wall. Use flex track to put some very broad curves in there. Leave room for scenic treatment in front and behind the track. This would be able to be part of the lifetime layout. Use the O-81 and O-72 curves to turn the corners. Now, at each end, build a turnback loop of O-72 or even less to join the two tracks. These turn back loops are temporary, but they are what let you start running trains. As you build along the next wall of the lifetime layout, these can be moved back to the next corner, so you are running then along two walls. You may or may not end up using those two turnback curves in the final layout, but so what? It will take years to fill that room with layout. Who wants to wait that long to run trains? In addition, it is vital to check out construction by actual operation. This first section will be thoroughly checked out before you start laying other levels on top of it, or otherwise make it harder to figure out where the problem is and get to it to fix it. Believe me, we have all wasted time and money on our mistakes. It's called experience. You will, too. Don't worry about it.

Hey Ken,

Your absolutely right. I want to be able to start running trains earlier rather than later, and I know filling that space is a marathon operation. That is part of the many things I hoped to glean from all of the good folks here on the forum. Of all the YouTubers I watch, most have had some sort of help with their layouts... in person help.... either from friends or members of their local clubs. I live in Southern MD... not exactly model train country. I have a good local shop called Sidetrack Hobbies, but he has scaled down alot and is only open a couple of days a week now, only during the peak train season. Back in the day he had a big layout in his old store, but since they downsized several years ago the big layout is now gone. The owner has definitely been helpful to me, I am super thankful for that. Removing track is not a big deal... I was more worried about tearing up benchwork and starting over from scratch type of stuff. Obviously I am most likely not going to ballast anything until I know it works a will be a permanent part of the layout.