Blackwater Canyon Line - September 8, 2024 - Town and Scratchbuild Planning

Mike, Thank you!  We certainly fared better than they did along Lake Erie, e.g. Steelers game in Buffalo!    We got a few inches of wet snow with that snowfall.  Monday, we got soft powdery snow, but with the wind chill at or below zero, the 'easy' work took a lot more out of me.  I just took the garbage and recycling cans out; it was brutal for an 'old' guy even with coveralls and face covering.  More fun predicted Friday and Saturday. 

I started some practice with some dark gray chalk for weathering streaks.  I'll post when I have something to show for my time spent. I don't know that I can do what Dennis did on his.

Mark, give Dennis a call, he’s a great guy and will offer some suggestions.

Andy

Thank you, Andy!  I had already tried my hand at weathering along the top edge of the walls and under the window sills with chalk.  It could be better, but I'm pleased with it.  Here it is going together.  Tot he left is the base that I couldn't get an even spray of the textured paint Dennis suggested.  I'll use it to build up the kit, but won't glue the structure to it until I get it painted the way I want it.

Looking at it in this state, it definitely looks like a big empty box.  It needs some floors and dividing walls for rooms, though I have no idea how a freelanced coffee company should look inside.    I pulled out some of the 1/4" sheet styrene that a forum member suggested I use for a foundation for the Thomas, West Virginia station kit.  There is plenty for two floors and should be sturdy, though if I put in a wall or two on each floor, that should support.

Thank you for looking and commenting!!!

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Andy!  I had already tried my hand at weathering along the top edge of the walls and under the window sills with chalk.  It could be better, but I'm pleased with it.  Here it is going together.  Tot he left is the base that I couldn't get an even spray of the textured paint Dennis suggested.  I'll use it to build up the kit, but won't glue the structure to it until I get it painted the way I want it.

Thank you for looking and commenting!!!

Those are some darn fancy bar clamps!!!!!

@RSJB18 posted:

Those are some darn fancy bar clamps!!!!!

Indeed, Bob!!!  Dennis suggested them in an add-on sheet to the instructions.  Four of them were quite reasonably priced, I thought!  They are something I have needed for a long time!!

Mark, thank you for sharing details.  I will embark on a mortar quest soon and it's good to see people I sort of know trying things for the first time vs. seeing youtube videos where it seems so easy.  Looks good, by the way!

Mark your kits coming along nicely. Other than the weather hampering any painting outside. This is the perfect time to sit and relax and do a kit.

Funny thing about adding mortar. Over 30 years ago. I was just getting started in the hobby. Bought my first kit. Direct from Korber. Sent through the mail for a catalog and then placed my order again using an envelope with a money order. Did some reading in MR on how to do it and went at it. The only thing I had ever built was some crude models as a kid. To this day. That mortar job was the best one I have ever done. Not sure what I used. Just enough so you can see it. But not so much it jumps out at at you. What I have learned over the years. Everyone’s kits are different as far as the material used to create it,  brick size and the depth of the mortar lines. What works on one structure. May not work on another. Now I start with an obscure section and experiment there. Luckily. Everything used is water based and if you aren’t satisfied. You can wipe it off and try again.

Hi Mark, you are doing a very nice job on your structure.. As far as rooms I may suggest a wall every three windows, for the upper level. That is usually the norm for a building in that age era.  The bottom floor I would imagine, would be more of an open space with exception of rest rooms, and maybe a small office area.  I use regular baking flour for mortar rubbed in lightly by hand.. Excess removed by soft brush.  Then a light spray of dullcoat or similar product... I have considered purchasing this kit, even though I am a scratch builder.. I do like it.. and you have done a very nice job'..👍😉

On another note:  Where did you get those clamps'.. I like them and I could us a set of those as well....

Thanks'.. QG

@Mark Boyce  Mark - if you are having a hard time with the textured rattle can paint, you might want to try sanded grout. I mix it to a semi-runny paste and brush it on surfaces I want to resemble concrete. It gives just enough surface texture and takes acrylic paint pretty well.

Thank you, Dan, Dave, QG, Jeff!!

Dan, that is an excellent point!  Someone on YouTube who has done it time and again has it down pat and makes it look easy.  In this case I was just one beggar showing other beggars where to find food!    Much more valuable.

Dave, I never bothered trying to show mortar on plastic kits I assembled when I was a teenager.  When I was in my 30s, I was modeling in N scale and my opinion was why bother.  I totally agree that paint takes to different materials differently.  On this kit, I picked the portion of the brick near the chimney that will be covered by a hip roof.  After a couple tries, I got the amount of water on my finger that made the new container of Dap Fast 'n Final lightweight spackling work for me.  If I had used Ace Hardware brand that was on the same shelf, I probably would have had different results.

Quarter Gauger, I like your suggestion for room dividers.  There is already a divider on the first floor for the single story portion of the building, with a man door to the outside.  That could be an office and restroom.  Dennis Brennan suggested purchasing the clamps from MicroMark.  They had them on their Web site, but they were out of stock.  I found them at Hardwick & Sons https://hardwickandsons.com/  The part name was: Small Solid Brass Bar Clamp ~ 12" Long - 300 mm      The total bill for 4 of them including shipping was $56.05

Jeff, I am looking for a different approach for the concrete.  Your method sounds like a winner to me.  Thank you!!

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Dan, Dave, QG, Jeff!!

Dan, that is an excellent point!  Someone on YouTube who has done it time and again has it down pat and makes it look easy.  In this case I was just one beggar showing other beggars where to find food!    Much more valuable.

Dave, I never bothered trying to show mortar on plastic kits I assembled when I was a teenager.  When I was in my 30s, I was modeling in N scale and my opinion was why bother.  I totally agree that paint takes to different materials differently.  On this kit, I picked the portion of the brick near the chimney that will be covered by a hip roof.  After a couple tries, I got the amount of water on my finger that made the new container of Dap Fast 'n Final lightweight spackling work for me.  If I had used Ace Hardware brand that was on the same shelf, I probably would have had different results.

Quarter Gauger, I like your suggestion for room dividers.  There is already a divider on the first floor for the single story portion of the building, with a man door to the outside.  That could be an office and restroom.  Dennis Brennan suggested purchasing the clamps from MicroMark.  They had them on their Web site, but they were out of stock.  I found them at Hardwick & Sons https://hardwickandsons.com/  The part name was: Small Solid Brass Bar Clamp ~ 12" Long - 300 mm      The total bill for 4 of them including shipping was $56.05

Jeff, I am looking for a different approach for the concrete.  Your method sounds like a winner to me.  Thank you!!

Mark, Mig Ammo products, has a real concrete product that actually works. Rub a little on the bricks, wait 2,3, minutes wipe off the excess.. a very cool product and it actually works.  They also have a black top too..

Ted

@Quarter Gauger 48 posted:

Mark, Mig Ammo products, has a real concrete product that actually works. Rub a little on the bricks, wait 2,3, minutes wipe off the excess.. a very cool product and it actually works.  They also have a black top too..

Ted

@Quarter Gauger 48

Ted:

From where is this product available?

Mark, I think your mortar work looks fine. I have tried mortar detailing in the past with just ok results. But the mig ammo product is something to consider. I like the design of your building.

@Randy Harrison posted:

@Quarter Gauger 48

Ted:

From where is this product available?

Randy,

This is the actual MIG AMMO site.  I think he has the best prices...  There are several outlets... on Google'...  The concrete is 8 bucks.. two types, thick and thin....

https://www.migjimenez.com/en/225-ammo-paints

@Quarter Gauger 48 posted:

Randy,

This is the actual MIG AMMO site.  I think he has the best prices...  There are several outlets... on Google'...  The concrete is 8 bucks.. two types, thick and thin....

https://www.migjimenez.com/en/225-ammo-paints

@Quarter Gauger 48

Ted:

Thanks for the link. I bought one. For brick mortar detailing, do you use it full strength or cut it with water?

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Dan, Dave, QG, Jeff!!

Dan, that is an excellent point!  Someone on YouTube who has done it time and again has it down pat and makes it look easy.  In this case I was just one beggar showing other beggars where to find food!    Much more valuable.

Dave, I never bothered trying to show mortar on plastic kits I assembled when I was a teenager.  When I was in my 30s, I was modeling in N scale and my opinion was why bother.  I totally agree that paint takes to different materials differently.  On this kit, I picked the portion of the brick near the chimney that will be covered by a hip roof.  After a couple tries, I got the amount of water on my finger that made the new container of Dap Fast 'n Final lightweight spackling work for me.  If I had used Ace Hardware brand that was on the same shelf, I probably would have had different results.

Quarter Gauger, I like your suggestion for room dividers.  There is already a divider on the first floor for the single story portion of the building, with a man door to the outside.  That could be an office and restroom.  Dennis Brennan suggested purchasing the clamps from MicroMark.  They had them on their Web site, but they were out of stock.  I found them at Hardwick & Sons https://hardwickandsons.com/  The part name was: Small Solid Brass Bar Clamp ~ 12" Long - 300 mm      The total bill for 4 of them including shipping was $56.05

Jeff, I am looking for a different approach for the concrete.  Your method sounds like a winner to me.  Thank you!!

Hi Mark',

Just placed order with Hardwick and Sons.   Love that site.  Amazon has almost the same exact item, with the exception of tightening knob.  I like the Hardwick version better.. ordered a few new cutting tools as well.  Cost 15 bucks for shipping, verses prime.. but I like to spread it around and give someone else a sale..  Thanks for the tip, I really like that store... And it reminded me of driving through Idaho years ago.. They're located in the north west corner just shy of Spokane.  Beautiful area' of the Pacific North West'... 

@Randy Harrison posted:

@Quarter Gauger 48

Ted:

Thanks for the link. I bought one. For brick mortar detailing, do you use it full strength or cut it with water?

I use it full strength.  I think you will like it for mortar as it is the thinner version. You can cut it with water if you like.  I would recommend making a tiny side walk or square small block to get a feel for it.. That will give you an idea of how much and whether you want to dilute or use full strength....

Keep me posted on your results'...😉👍

Hi Mark, I know I am way behind, and I am sorry for that! I think you are doing an outstanding job and its nice to see all the pointers you and others throw out there! I also like the clamps and am looking forward to getting some. But that will have to wait till after the move, so I don't have more to pack! LOL

Thank you, Ted, Pennsynut, Randy!

Ted, That is great information on Mig Ammo concrete.  I'm glad you found what you wanted on Hardwick & Sons!  A person could easily spend a whole lot of money there. 

I would love to go to Idaho sometime.  I now have two cousins, one from each side of the family living there.  Maybe I could sweet talk them into putting us up for a while...or 'putting up with us' may be more true! 

Pennsynut, thank you that is a nice design.  Since I decided I need to add floors to the kit, now is the time to do it.  The first floor will be easy.  The second floor will need some more thought, not just using Ted's suggestions about rooms, but am I going to have the freight doors open and space to look inside to see products on the floor.  There could be a lot of interest since there is a freight door on the track side and also truck side of the building.  A pull out second floor would be nice for access, but future lighting would need to be thought out too with a pull out floor.  I will have to look back on some of Myles' structure projects, since he has thought those concerns out so well. 

@mike g. posted:

Hi Mark, I know I am way behind, and I am sorry for that! I think you are doing an outstanding job and its nice to see all the pointers you and others throw out there! I also like the clamps and am looking forward to getting some. But that will have to wait till after the move, so I don't have more to pack! LOL

Mike, thank you.  You posted as I was finishing my last post.  I am always glad when side conversations get started, because I always learn from the answers to other members' questions!

I agree with you that you don't need to buy more stuff just to pack and move it.  If you did and are like me, you wouldn't be able to find the new stuff once you get to your new home.    I'm still wondering where some things went, and we have been in this house 13 years! 

@mike g. posted:

Hi Mark, I know I am way behind, and I am sorry for that! I think you are doing an outstanding job and its nice to see all the pointers you and others throw out there! I also like the clamps and am looking forward to getting some. But that will have to wait till after the move, so I don't have more to pack! LOL

Hey Mike'.. Don't wait to long to order the clamps.. They are running low on stock...

@Mark Boyce posted:

Mike, thank you.  You posted as I was finishing my last post.  I am always glad when side conversations get started, because I always learn from the answers to other members' questions!

I agree with you that you don't need to buy more stuff just to pack and move it.  If you did and are like me, you wouldn't be able to find the new stuff once you get to your new home.    I'm still wondering where some things went, and we have been in this house 13 years! 

Mark so true.. three years in the new digs this coming May, and I can't find a very important box with my BRASS box cars. and all my lighting supplies......👺

Ill do my best to get the clamps. Who know we might just stop by their store on the way to Missouri! LOL

Mark, the building looks great. I think the overall effect will be terrific. I have a couple of sets of the brass clamps, and they work well. Lightweight and get the job done.

Andy

Wow, it's been 10 days since the last comment.  I have been plugging away a few minutes at a time.  I put in a first floor with some of this over styrene supports.  The second photograph is what it looked like without the scratchbuilt floor.

For some strange reason, I had forgotten that one of the loading doors is at almost ground level instead of dock level.  I then made a section of the floor at ground level.  I gave the floor some color with chalk.   The light colored section is a piece of scrap just sitting there to show I need to put a wider ramp in place.

I can use the first floor section as an office and rest room.

I pealed the three sets of double doors off the building, and cut each in two to show open doors.  The doors and dock floor aren't attached yet.

Here is a closeup of the foundation with another coat of the spray Dennis Brennan recommended.  I don't think I like it.  Mine looks too speckled for me.  I ordered jar of the Mig Ammo concrete Ted suggested and will see how that looks.

I did get the cotton batting glued down on the Idaho Hotel scene, but I haven't purchased any brown paint.  I thought it worked out pretty easily.  So here is how it looks.  Yes, it is too flat, but I thought I would see how it works out on this lift-up portion of scenery.  I can go back later and add some slight hills once I figure out what else I am going to put here.

Mark, I might be wrong but from the pic's, but it looks like you might be using hard chalk sticks for your weathering. In my experience these sticks are essentially like crayons and difficult to both apply and  smooth out to the desired effect.

I like using fine or ultra-fine chalk powders, like those made by Pan Pastels,  that can be applied with a soft foam or bristle brush. These are much easier to apply, spread around and work into the structure. They can also be easily removed if you need to start over. I think you'll find them much easier to use if you haven't already tried them.

They come in sheets of 4-6 shades of color and you can select from different colored pallettes. I got mine years ago and, unfortunately, it looks like the prices have sky-rocketed, but they are available on the big A, if you're interested.   

@Mark Boyce  Mark - I've used chalk sticks as well - they work fine for me.  I use a razor knife to scrape away enough powder and apply with a soft brush. I do not grind them up.  The finely ground power Richie C mentions might work better, but I use so little the sticks are fine for now.  I am not weathering like the pros, so what is OK to me might not for them.

The powders reportedly have a higher percentage of pigment and some like Bragdon have an adhesive aspect to them. Most have suggested applying over dullcoat sealer to provide bite for the powders.  Jeff

Mark! I love it! You're putting all those wonderful details that only us readers of the forum will ever see. We all have a disease that forces us to do marvelous things that are effectively invisible once the building is all buttoned up. Keep it up. It's wonderful.

@ScoutingDad posted:

@Mark Boyce  Mark - I've used chalk sticks as well - they work fine for me.  I use a razor knife to scrape away enough powder and apply with a soft brush. I do not grind them up.  The finely ground power Richie C mentions might work better, but I use so little the sticks are fine for now.  I am not weathering like the pros, so what is OK to me might not for them.

The powders reportedly have a higher percentage of pigment and some like Bragdon have an adhesive aspect to them. Most have suggested applying over dullcoat sealer to provide bite for the powders.  Jeff

ScoutingDad is correct that you can grind up the chalk sticks a little to create a powder, but I've never gotten it to as fine a grit as the pre-made powders, plus the sticks seem like they have an oily/greasy consistency to them (probably to help hold/mold them together as a stick) which I'm not fond of.   

Either way seems acceptable

Mark, that’s coming along nicely and it’s going to be eye catching. It may be too late, but you can try putting things under the batting to alter the terrain.

Jay

Very Nice work Mark'.. the building is starting to come to life'.. Keep going'. The chalk is working for you' and if your happy, we're all happy'....😁

Mark, a great build on Sanky Wanky! Adding the floor opens up whole new dimension. I imagined the street level customer entrance as a vestibule having a wide interior stairway leading to a door on the main level where there would be a small customer service lobby.

As far as the Desert Bisque concrete spray paint, I have occasionally used a very light spray over an undercoat of Camo Khaki. What I like about the this fine-textured paint is not the actual texture as such but the speckles in the texture. Perhaps your coverage was too heavy? Although, I've not seen that dense a speckle even when I've applied a  heavy coat. I assume you did use the finely-textured Desert Bisque. Did you shake  the can thoroughly for 3 minutes prior to application?

You could also mask off the bricks and very lightly respray the concrete with the Camo Khaki or you could tone it down with some chalk weathering or even with a brown wash. And truth be told, I don't have a problem with your concrete. There are many ways to simulate concrete. The key is to find the one that works for you.

Keep up the great work. And don't hesitate to give me call if I can be of any help.

Dennis

Mark, The difference between paint and real concrete is like day and night.

Later, today I will send you some photos of the Ammo concrete,  in use on a model.  Now, I must say the paint Dennis mentions, is very good and I use it all the time for many different aspects of a project.  Including a base coat on figures...

Over the years I have tried to master the exact color of cement/concrete and have tried every imaginable item representing color and texture of cement.

The closest to the real thing I found prior to the Ammo product was water putty and is really the closest thing to cement.  But a pain to work with.

Stay tuned'... for photos...

@Mark Boyce posted:

Mike, Thank you!  We certainly fared better than they did along Lake Erie, e.g. Steelers game in Buffalo!    We got a few inches of wet snow with that snowfall.  Monday, we got soft powdery snow, but with the wind chill at or below zero, the 'easy' work took a lot more out of me.  I just took the garbage and recycling cans out; it was brutal for an 'old' guy even with coveralls and face covering.  More fun predicted Friday and Saturday. 

I started some practice with some dark gray chalk for weathering streaks.  I'll post when I have something to show for my time spent. I don't know that I can do what Dennis did on his.

Mark, I have really enjoyed watching you build this kit. I really like the idea of a two story interior but I notice that you haven’t mentioned anything about interior lighting ( or exterior, for that matter). You may want to consider removability of the upper floor so you can gain access to the ground floor. Also, Bill Bramlage and others have done some work on structure lighting and wiring that I have found very helpful.
as to light fixtures, while LEDs are great, in a period piece like yours you may want to experiment with hanging some N gauge glow fixtures upside down from the interior ceiling, for a vintage appearance.

Thank you, Richie, Jeff, Myles, Jay, Dennis, Ted, Rubin!

Richie and Jeff, you are right, I used these.  I have both scraped them with a knife into a pile of dust and used them like a crayon.  I'm not overly happy with my results, but it isn't too bad either.  I agree, they must have an adhesive in them.

I looked up the Pan Pastels on AtoZ, and like anything the prices are high.

Myles, you are the master of making fine details and covering them up.  Since this building will be right at the layout edge, I thought I needed to put something inside.

Dennis, thank you.  It is a great kit!  I can see you produced it to be relatively close to what Frank Ellison did.  Working with the materials he had at the time, building exteriors were enough to keep him busy.  Looking at the building from 4 feet away, I think the coloring looks great.  Up close it does look a little speckled.  I do agree with you, that paint does make a nice weathered concrete color.  I can try to do better or live with it, either way.

I did shake the can for 3 minutes.  It is possible the reason it looks a little too speckled up close is that since I couldn't spray inside, I sprayed my second coat on the only warm day we had in a while.  The air was damp, in fact, it started to form a mist right before I took it inside, immediately after I stopped spraying.  The good thing is that I did not glue the walls to the base yet since I didn't know when I could get another coat on the base.  Also it made it easier to work on the first floor.  Here is the building taken apart. 

"I imagined the street level customer entrance as a vestibule having a wide interior stairway leading to a door on the main level where there would be a small customer service lobby." I hadn't thought of that, but that is a great idea.  The George Howe Coffee Company in nearby Grove City, Pennsylvania is an excellent example.  They have a separate little building for walk-in customers.  We used to stop when our younger daughter studied at Grove City College.  Now it is easier to order online, even single bags for Christmas gifts.  You have made me totally rethink the first floor interior!  Thank you!!  We might make a trip up there to just give a closer eye to their facility!

I left the end wall off for now so I can work on how to add the second floor easier.  The other three walls are solidly glued together and it has held up well the couple times I slipped the wall on and off.

Ted, The Mig Ammo is on the way.  I still have to paint the inside of the concrete foundation of the ground level lowered floor. That concrete wouldn't be weathered like the exterior.  That will make interesting variety.

Jay, you are right, the batting is really stuck now.  I planned to have the area around the hotel relatively flat anyway to provide for parking and a bit of a grassy lawn.  I am up in the air about what will go closer to the camera in that photograph, so if I have to scrape up the batting and start over, that's okay.  I think this is just an easy to reach test area for me.

Rubin, thank you for mentioning lighting.  I have left the last 4 buildings I have made with roofs and even a second story removable in one case so I can come back later and fit in lighting and some details that would be seen through the windows.  I must admit I haven't given much thought to that other than to make the buildings easier to get inside.  Yes, being able to remove the second floor is why I left the end wall off...it was almost a last minute thought too.  I will look up the N gauge glow fixtures you mentioned.  I do have to say, I have never installed lighting in buildings before, and my modeling goes back to the late '60s.  I have seen Myles and others present some excellent methods of wiring lighting.

Dennis, thank you for agreeing to do your segments on Jim Kellow's New Tracks zoom videos.  I have seen others show how they built your kits, but I wasn't even looking for another kit when I saw your first presentation.

Quite the project you have there Mark, and an excellent job on the progress. I’ve enjoyed following this build.

Gene

Looks like another great building from the workbench of @Mark Boyce! I also started using the chalk sticks and I use a very fine cheese grader to make a fine powder. I also tried one of those handheld coffee grinders and got good results. Can't wait to see it complete and on the layout!

Hi Mark'.. here  are some shots of the AMMO concrete product..  See what you think.  This is the thicker product applied thin and watered down a bit.

Color may vary due to different monitors... In real life it looks completely like it should...

Mark,

You're really doing some nice work with the structure. Though there are others that have the kit you are truly making it your own. Look forward to more progress. I imagine with the added floor, you plan to detail the inside. Cheers!

Dave

@Mark Boyce it looks fantastic. I too use a lot of chalks and powders. Sometimes I will wet the powders I make from the chalk with a bit of isopropyl alcohol and make a wash for weathering. I really want to try this AMMO (?) concrete product. Looks really nice and realistic. Good luck with the rest of your build!

Mike