Steamfan77 posted:Good luck to you Mark. Looking forward to your progress.
Andy
Thank you, Andy!
John,
Here are a couple quick thoughts while I am on break.
I am really hoping to run my H9 Consolidation which takes 042 curves. I realize expanding the curves to 042 stretches the canyon loops out into the middle of the room. However I got to thinking, I don't need to provide for continuous running on this layout. If I want to do that, I can just step through the door and run trains on the Ceiling Central RR. So, besides some sidings, buildings, and wye/turntable at each end, I don't need room for a turning loop.
Do you think this idea would work?
Marc Williams really wants to see that H9 I got from him on a trade run on this layout.
Right Marc? ;-)
Oops, gotta go for now!
Mark:
I'll see what happens with 42 as the minimum. Yes it will stretch it out a bit. I'm just trying to ensure that you have a three foot wide aisle way in order for you to have ease access and at least two people may run the trains and get by one another.
Having a turntable at the ends or a Wye will make it more interesting and cut down on a bigger "blob" return loop...I don't think there would be enough aisle way remaining with 42 blobs at both ends...
Dear Mark:
I changed the curves to a minimum of 42 diameter. Your baby will work! :-)
The passing siding curve is a 48 diameter. Since we increased to 42 as a minimum a reversing loop at each end became impractical because of everything needing to be with a 30 inch maximum reach and people space.
I discovered that my "Wye" suggestion also became impractical because of aisle way widths. The turnaround "solution" is a 24 inch turntable. Atlas does make one that size that is inexpensive. However, you will need to "weather" it well. I placed turntables at both "ends."
There are three lanes leading to the turntables on both ends. That means you could have another train or two (might be pressed for space) on any of the "free" spokes. Another advantage of this arrangement is that it will allow an engine to get on either end of a train so you may easily "classify" (arrange) your loads/empties in Davis or Hendricks. There are staging drawers at both towns. And you will need to switch the caboose from the front to the rear of the trains at both locations. Talk about realistic!
At Davis, 60 inches off the floor is high for a turntable in my opinion. Maybe not in yours. You may want to consider the height of this layout. I have the bottom at 41" and the top at 60." I wanted a dramatic difference to illustrate the steep grades and sharp curvature.
You may maintain that same grade by "adjusting" the entire profile. I mean make the top of the layout 55" up and the bottom 36" from floor. That 5 inches will make a world of difference in Davis as it will be easier to reach the rear track which is 28 inches back from the aisle way. At your height, you'd be okay at 60" but it may be a stretch. I'm 6'2" and I'm stretching at 60 inches high to reach. TEST YOUR REACH AT DIFFERENT HEIGHTS.
Whatever you decide, everything, that means EVERYTHING must be within 30 inches of reach, and less is better. As layout height increases your reach decreases. And factor in there are two lines of track in front of the rear track at Davis. You would have to reach over to fix a problem. You would need a step ladder/stool.
I have multiple step stools at my layout. As we clean track or install scenery we need to reach over trees and buildings at times. Those objects "reduce" (restrict) your reach. I have library rolling stools which are also a step. These are great because you can sit at Hendricks, stand at Davis and roll this library stool anywhere you need it to be including out of the way.
This track arrangement is fantastic for operation as trains pass each other going up and down the canyon. I can "picture" two Operators running the line. There would be four trains total. Two trains in Davis and Two in Hendricks. The first two would start, one each from opposite ends, and "meet" in the canyon. When they arrived at their respective towns for water and coal, the crew would switch to the other train, already standing by, and make their return trip to "home" and finish their "trick." If a third person was there, he or she, could "stage" additional trains or remove already used rolling stock to the staging drawers.
I suggested the "bare bones" of this theme and operational plan. You may have a better idea for a spur along the way or a different track arrangement at either town. The turntable at Hendricks is pretty much stuck where it is because you will want to maintain a 36 inch wide aisle way. It isn't worth one or two more spoke tracks to store an engine because your people space is at a premium! You and any one else viewing or operating the layout is far more important than one spoke track.
I think this is a great theme and good for the space. If you go with this, you will have to very carefully plan the bench-work. If you don't have it buy Linn Westcott's "How to Build Model Railroad Bench-Work." USE THE L-GIRDER method. This layout is ideal for that support system.
Also plan to include BACKDROPS. You will need them to make the BCL awesome. You will want to curve your backdrops around the corners of the room. It will make the layout look far, far better than square corners. Hardboard works very well.
I would also recommend you extend your backdrops all the wall to the ceiling. I would paint the ceiling a very light sky blue. Think about your lighting prior to constructing all of that bench-work which will swiftly become an obstacle.
I will attach the revised larger curvature diameter plan tonight; which includes suggestions for the "ends" of the line.
John,
Thank you for speedy work! I'm surprised you don't have something else to do!! lol
I agree with all your suggestions, I think. I built layouts using Westcott's book. I still have the book, but think I have it pretty well down pat. Yes 60" is a bit high for reach especially. The highest I built was about 50 to 52" if I recall correctly. I already use a two-foot step ladder for accessing the Ceiling Central, and have a cheap rolling low seat for working down low. No more crawling on my hands and knees. Mine took a pounding working as a technician for over 30 years before moving to engineering almost a decade ago. ;-)
Ill say more later. Back to the old grind! lol
Mark:
I adjusted the height based on your response. The highest point is 50 inches up and the lowest is 31 inches. I dropped all 10 inches lower.
Ultimately, you can determine where you want it to be. There are two places where the tracks cross over one another. At those points the closest one is 7 inches up which is extra room and you aren't going to run tall equipment. 6 would be fine for 99% of O scale stuff anyway. Think about it...
01-13-2017
Mark:
Here is the amended version with minimum 42's.
I'm disappointed with my printer scanner. I don't know why the scanner is NOT picking up dotted lines. It is showing them as solid. I use the dotted to indicate a line is "hidden" from view. A lot of the passing siding is under Davis. There is sufficient space to access everything through the access hole. I don't know if you can kind of envision this set up because the main is constantly on a steep grade less the turnouts on the grade that are flat/level and the tracks connected to the turnouts are flat/level for at least one foot in all directions.
I also used dotted lines to show the aisle ways...it appears as solid on the scan.
Well here it is. Point to Point. About 50 to 55 feet of run--very good for a room this size. Three yard tracks and one turntable each town. Maximum four trains. 1 lane in each town should always be available. You need it to put the caboose on the correct end of the train for the return trip. Every time a train makes the journey, regardless of direction, the caboose will need to be put on the "new" end of the train--very prototypical.
Constructing this will require precise bench-work because there's just enough room to maintain a 36 inch aisle way in the area making it relatively easy for two people to pass by one another.
I really like this arrangement and theme. I've been checking out photos today. There is a hiking trail there now. You have great information to know how to make the scenery similar.
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Mark
Try a higher resolution on you scanner.
C
Mark Boyce posted:John,
Here are a couple quick thoughts while I am on break.
I am really hoping to run my H9 Consolidation which takes 042 curves. I realize expanding the curves to 042 stretches the canyon loops out into the middle of the room. However I got to thinking, I don't need to provide for continuous running on this layout. If I want to do that, I can just step through the door and run trains on the Ceiling Central RR. So, besides some sidings, buildings, and wye/turntable at each end, I don't need room for a turning loop.
Do you think this idea would work?
Marc Williams really wants to see that H9 I got from him on a trade run on this layout.
Right Marc? ;-)
Oops, gotta go for now!
You bet! I must say that it will look great on the new layout! If I can, I'd be happy to help out with the build and I'd definitely love to see it once it is completed. This Blackwater Canyon line looks incredible! Certainly it is designed for your smaller locomotives, but I think the H-9 will function well. Just be sure that the grade at the bottom of the hill is small. I have had some problems with my 734 touching the center rail at the bottom of my grade and shorting out the layout. Be very careful with this! I run a 4% grade. I think the outdoor carpet worsens the problem.
-Marc
I want to see it when it's done too! But to do that layout justice, it's going to take a very long while. Unless of course Mark is independently wealthy and has been holding out on us! I wish that I was close to help build. This is going to take some careful planning and loads of plaster cloth and some scratch built stone arches??? This layout has masterpiece written all over it.
People forever get hung up on the size thing. Some of the best most realistic layouts I ever saw were on a shelf. The detail was out of this world. It's not the size. It's the quality, coupled with a Design theme.
Model Railroading is so much more than just arranging track pieces to fit a space. You need a theme. You need a place. You need a purpose. You need something for the Operators to do.
Plausibility
Purpose
Participation
You'll need some custom logo for the BCL Mark! :-)
Mark...I am very happy for you!! Glad you have a place to build your new layout!!
Alan
John,
Yes it does look like everything will fit nicely. You did a great job! Don't worry about the lack of dotted likes for now it is just fine. You are right, I am working on visualizing how the scenery will work out on the curves. You are right, I can picture some scenes from memory and a few photos I found on the Internet. I think I will have time to dig the books and photos out of the closet tomorrow. Also, we will have to take a trip down there come better weather.
Yes Rome was not built in a day. Cecil B DeMille's 1934 Cleopatra is on right now; probably why I thought of the old saying. It will take quite a while to build as I am not independently wealthy, and still have to work for a few more years. LOL
I'm thinking about the towns too, as to what will go in them. I have seen various arrangements for car staging drawers or shelves. That will work!
The scenery will be challenging but fun. I will like doing the stone work.
Marc,
I understand what you mean about hitting at the bottom of the grade. You have to have a section that gradually changes from level to the full grade percentage. I would be glad to have help. However I can envision this year spent planning and finishing the room. I need more lights, and do some painting. I might need to add a separate power circuit for the room. Thank you!!
OGR Ad Man posted:Mark...I am very happy for you!! Glad you have a place to build your new layout!!
Alan
Alan,
Thank you very much!!!
Mark, I don't know if this will help, but while watching TV this evening I threw this together using GarGraves O42 curves and Ross O42 switches. I deviated from the O48 curve and used O54 because neither GG nor Ross make O48 curves. My goal was just to show how John's design appears to work using GG/Ross track. I guesstimated the measurements for the bench work and the whole layout obviously needs to be refined using/cutting GG flexible track if you go with this design or something close to it.
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Dave,
That is really cool you did that, and it really looks good! I will certainly look it over along with John's. Thank you very much!
Just thought I'd save you some work since you still have a day job and I don't. 
Ha, Ha! Much appreciated!!
Actually, I have a pretty decent gig right now. I get two small pension checks each month, and work as a contractor/consultant at my old company. Best thing is, I don't have the pressures I had as a regular employee! If it holds out until I can collect Social Security, I'll be in good shape! If not, I'll ask one of my sons-in-law for a job! 
Well, after that one warm day we had, the snow is gone. Since it is in the low 30s, I decided to do a few odd jobs outside I normally do in November, and take down Christmas wreaths and lights. As I was on the patio, I decided it would be a good idea to take a photo of the doors outside so you can better visualize what I am talking about. First is where you can see the addition in white vinyl siding with the infamous glass sliding door. The door on the tan brick and aluminum siding part is where the sliding glass door originally started and continued into where the addition went.
I am now inside sitting at the desk right beside the newer 36-inch door. Here you can see where the sliding glass door was taking the space of the 36-inch door, a pillar, and the 20-inch wide entrance to the train room. Part of the Ceiling Central RR is above. Also, you can see on the left where the laundry is and the window through the brick wall. Beyond the washer and dryer is the firewall separating the living space from the garage, so there is nowhere else to move the laundry. As you can see in the train room with the single three-bulb fixture, my outside work is not complete as I have power cords and part of the Nativity I need to box up and put in the attic.
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I'd be happy if someone proved me wrong, but I believe Atlas doesn't make that turntable anymore. I can't find one anywhere except the occasional used one on eBay.
