Mark, for someone on the mend you have been super productive.
Coming along great Mark, thanks for sharing.
Gene
Mark - you are an inspiration! Your cars with LEDs look great!!
Very impressive!!!
George
The cars look great Mark. Looks like a pair of steamers will be needed to pull the grades. Would make a sharp train! 
Those F3's would look great on the lead too.
I have a bunch of cars that I want to convert to LED and add passengers. I bought the lighting kits a while back from @Rod Stewart . Now I need to find the time. Maybe I need to find a reason to "recover" for a while. 
I keep buying supplies for projects that I never get too.... the list is getting longer and longer.
Bob
Mark; really nice work on all fronts. You are making great progress. You are an inspiration to all of us. The WM cars look spectacular. I think you nailed the lighting level perfectly! 
Question: did you do anything special for the observation car marker lighting? The only reason I ask is they seem a bit dim to me, but that may only be the video clip. I can’t recall if I sold you any marker light kits or not. If not I can mail you a couple of kits.
Bob, is there anything I can do to get you kick-started on the lighting kits? As Mark said they go along pretty well after you get 2 or 3 under your belt.
Rod
@RSJB18 posted:I have a bunch of cars that I want to convert to LED and add passengers. I bought the lighting kits a while back from @Rod Stewart . Now I need to find the time. Maybe I need to find a reason to "recover" for a while.
I keep buying supplies for projects that I never get too.... the list is getting longer and longer.Bob
Bob, the next stage in "Anticipatory Project Component Purchasing" (APCP for short) is that you will forget where you put the regulators, circuit boards, wiring, etc.-- they will be lost.
And the stage after "lost" is "found", but you will have no idea what they are for--they'll be in your hand and you won't have a clue of what they are for or why you bought them in the first place.
@Pingman posted:Bob, the next stage in "Anticipatory Project Component Purchasing" (APCP for short) is that you will forget where you put the regulators, circuit boards, wiring, etc.-- they will be lost.
And the stage after "lost" is "found", but you will have no idea what they are for--they'll be in your hand and you won't have a clue of what they are for or why you bought them in the first place.
And don't forget about the ensuing swearing while looking for the aforementioned APCP!
I fear that it's too late for me.....bad enough when you forget about a TRAIN you bought and never took out of the box (which has happened). 
Mark, you truly are an inspiration. That WM 2-8-0 is one of my favorites. BTW, if you get any grief about a do-called “freight engine” leading a passenger train, ignore it! The last issue of the Pennsylvania Railroad Historical Society showed numerous pictures of Pennsylvania Consolidations like the H-8,9,or 10 leading passenger trains on branch lines. If it’s good enough for the real PRR, it may even be good enough for our basement railroads😉
as for me, I’m still pondering how to make the best of Edward’s wonderful help and drawings. But I’m making progress on the bench work anyway. Unfortunately, I just discovered that several of my joists are 1/8” shallower than my old wood, so I’m going to have to take a lot apart and replace or just forge ahead and try to compensate. In addition, I’ve just come down with what May be ulnar compression syndrome, which makes my right ring finger painful and weakens my grip. Oh well…
keep that Robert and layout progress moving.
Rubin
Not “ Robert” but recovery
@RubinG posted:Not “ Robert” but recovery
FWIW, you can go back and edit a previous post.
Thank you, Jay, Gene, Pat, George, Bob, Rod, Carl, Rubin!
Jay, As far as being productive while on the mend, there are so many things I could be doing that I either can't do, shouldn't do, or it hurts to do, that I guess this is something that I was able to do.
Bob, I should be able to easily add my second Western Maryland Consolidation and have a doubleheader up the mountain. You are right the F3s would look good. That would add a second motor even with one F3 being non powered. I believe I have already mentioned to you that I didn't have any orthopedic trouble until I was 62. The last almost five years have been one thing after another. Your time will probably come sooner or later, though I hope it is later.
Rod, thank you. I had the kits already built and tested, then put them away for a while. You are right about the marker lights on the observation car. I did use one of the observation car boards you sent me. The first try, I cut the LED leads off too short, so I unsoldered them and put them in the bag for another project. These have long enough leads, but I tried bending them and checking 3 or 4 times. I thought I had them pretty good, but not so. They look much better when I bend down to look at them. I'll have to open that car up and try again.
I had the most trouble with the Lionel baggage car. It wasn’t the circuitry, it was getting all four doors back on track putting the car together. I ended up tearing the car all apart so I had access to keep all the doors in line while putting the shell back on! 😩
Carl, APCP is certainly a good name for it. I certainly have that problem.
Rubin, actually the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad has consolidation #734 that they use for the trains. This is my one chance to run a modern train on my layout where everything else is of the 1950s era. They have a GP30 #501 in Circus paint scheme (red, white, black), and now ex C&O 2-6-6-2 #1309. While, I wholeheartedly agree with the "It's my railroad, so I can do what I want" philosophy, I still like to make things fairly realistic and have an example from the prototype like you mentioned.
Rubin, Edward has done a great job with your layout plans! I'm sorry you have some joists that are undersized. I've had to work with mismatches in size as well. I'm sorry you have had trouble with your grip. I had loss of grip with carpal tunnel syndrome, and my wife has something going on now that affects her grip. I think we may be just getting older. All the more reason to find ways to enjoy this multi-faceted hobby!!
Mark, the passenger train is great! I really like the lighting, it not only looks great, but it should take considerably less current too.
I'm not sure who introduced the Anticipatory Project Component Purchasing" (APCP for short) to the discussion, but I can definitely relate to that. When I was under the layout doing wiring recently I discovered duplicates of a couple buildings that I thought I only had one of. The two dairies that I bought worked out great because I used them both to make a kit bashed Morrell Packing Co. for my layout. The two feed stores also worked out great, one for the Iowa section of my layout and the other for the Kansas portion, but that definitely wasn't the original plan. I'm also a little over-bought on Lionel Grain Elevators.
Art
Thank you, Art! I agree it will take less current! I should have checked before and after, but I just started into the project and before I knew it, I was done.
I did open up the Western Maryland observation car and adjusted the marker LED on one side. The other looked good as is, so I matched them up. Much better now. Thank you, Rod for pointing it out. I forgot to take a photograph, so I guess it really didn't happen! 
“APCP” says it all. Somewhere in the late ‘70’s or early ‘80’s, when we were both modeling the Pennsylvania in HO, we were presented with “ the opportunity of a lifetime “ to buy a store’s entire stock of cardboard sides, cast metal ends and other parts sufficient to build about 20 wooden reefers and PRR X-29 and 23 boxcars, for about $5.00 per car plus trucks and kadee couplers. Of course, we had to grab this bargain! Not long thereafter manufacturers came out with far better cars in plastic and even brass. Needless to stay, these “gotta have” kits are still sitting in boxes somewhere. APCP indeed.
Those NYC cars are going to look great behind that K-Line Hudson when it gets back from Pat Mark. Gotta love it.
Mark,
When my grandfather was 90, he complained about getting old. When I said, “Grandpa, it beats the alternative.” He looked at me and said, “ What do you know?”
You're so right about Edward. I keep each of his plans in a file and I keep pouring over them, looking over each to determine what I’m going to do, even as I keep moving forward on the bench work. Now if I could only find someone to help. Lift 3x8 and 4x8 plywood.
Thank you, Rubin, Dave!
Rubin, I still have some HO and N scale parts for projects abandoned long ago. Some of them could be used on the O gauge layout in the background as forced perspective. Others, well who knows? 
Dave, When Pat was working with me on what I wanted in the K-Line Hudson upgrade, I still had the track in the over and under configuration with approximately 4% grades. Since I converted the layout to a high line and a water level line with two connecting inclines, the inclines wound up at about 5%. Pat assured me that the conversion would have more enough pulling power to handle the train on 4% grades. I have no concern about it handling the extra percent grade.
For anyone who may have missed it, I used the 18" heavyweight cars as a guide for getting enough side clearance on the lower level. That whole discussion, including photographs of where I ground off the sides of supports with the Dremel, is a few pages back. Maybe more pages back than I would recall.
Mark, I don't remember what post, topic, maybe even email with Pat and I, but he assured me on my Mohawk that pulling power was never ever going to be an issue. The Mohawk has no traction tires, and Pat said of it that it would be more realistic to see the wheels spin for a bit if it came to that. He had a video of one of his Hudson's pulling the kitchen sink of cars from diecast to heavyweights. I think if this was a topic/post, Pete(Norton) also commented the same on it.
Boy, am I with you, Mark. I’ve got two boxes containing about 13 brass locos from PFM, LMB, and others. I’ve also got two large boxes with FSM, SS LTD, Campbell and other kits, not to mention the boxes of Athearn, AHM and other plastic cars and locos. I keep meaning to sell this stuff, but who’s got the time?
Thank you, Dave and Rubin!
Dave, my grades will put the Hudson to the test. I have to double-head Consolidations to pull the heavier-than-I would have thought 6-car RailKing Western Maryland Scenic Railroad streamliners. What's more, there is still a Vistaliner and reefer on order to complete that train. I want to see the difference the Hudson makes. I didn't want 5+% grades, but in a small room, it is still practical.
Rubin, I think everyone of us who has been around a while has boxes with assorted kits, parts, materials.....I'm hoping to make use of some of it as I get older nd may not be able to buy much for the layout anymore.
I have encountered a new conundrum on a project that I just got in one hour of work. I'm going to make a new thread for it since it really is about engines and not the layout per se.
Mark,
As you probably know, the challenge with longer base locomotives and sharp grades, in addition to just the grade itself, is the vertical “ curve” or transition at the beginning of the grade which can cause a short as the cow catcher hits the third rail as it begins its ascent when the transition is too sharp. I’m trying to game that out even as we speak.
Rubin
I’d you all have the ability to read the past digital issues, there’s a nice article about grades in run 208 June 2005. Nice tips that I’m using as I make a grade down to a lower yard level in my layout addition.
Mark, in an older video by Eric of Eric's Trains he was talking about his incline, and how the incline was not exactly easy. I don't remember what the grade calculated out to, but it was something like yours. His trains granted have a long straightaway that I guess you could say eases it slowly. Most of the trains he has run up it have been MU'd Diesels, or big steam like the Big Boy and the like. I want to say that the video was one of his layout tours maybe 4-5 years or so ago. Those tour videos are actually dang good to watch, and very long videos too boot.
I can't resist talking about grades on a model railroad. I wanted to limit mine to no more than 2%, but ended up with one that is 2 1/2%. They don't look bad, but it can be hard on traction tires. And all of mine have 072 curves on them which adds to the difficulty. I can easily run 10 to 12 cars on mine with freight trains with one engine. Passenger trains are harder to pull, I'm not sure why?
I think we all want the least percentage of grade possible, but it's really tough in O gauge to find the space. It comes down to to sometimes you just have to make compromises. Your railroad looks great and I agree with what you have done. Oh, I visited a beautiful 2-rail O gauge layout this spring and he had over 5% grades and of course no traction tires. He has a mountain railroad and he uses helper engines to get his long trains over the grades. The wheels slip a little and the steam engines really have deep chuffs, but it looks and works great.
Art
Mark, nice work on the lighting. I just changed out some caboose lighting. Nice relaxing job on a rainy day.
I believe the biggest issue with pulling passenger cars is not so much the size or weight. Is the amount of drag on the cars from all the pickup rollers. The axle wipers may play a part in it also.
Rubin, I can attest to the cow catcher shorting out. I don’t even have steep grades. I adapted a different pilot to a 4-8-2 project. Made up a bracket to install and it did sit a bit lower as usually Lionel’s scale front coupler will hit the Kadee height gauge pretty close. Seeing this engine would not be used in a doublehead. I left it as was seeing it looked really good. Would short on what I consider a slight transition to level coming down a grade. Luckily it was easily fixed with a shim.
Chugman,
in my experience, traction tires are the bane of our lives. They wear out much sooner than they should and replacing them, especially on steam engines, is a royal pain. Last year I bought a new MTH Empire State 4-4-0. It ran very unevenly and when I examined the wheels, there was no evidence of prior use but one of the traction tires was simply not there! It really makes me wonder how we will keep our fleets running (or us!😊) in 5-10 years when all our “ rubber bands…er…traction tires need replacement.
sorry for the rant, but…
Thank you Rubin, LT1Poncho, Dave P, Art, Dave C!
Rubin, Dave C, Quite a few pages back, we went through all my troubles with the vertical transition. The bottom of on grade was a sharp enough transition the the engine shorted on the center rail, so I had to do quite a bit of shimming. At the top of the other grade, I had pilot wheels on at least one steamer and front truck wheels on 3-axle diesel trucks lift off the track and derail. That one was a whole lot more work, removing track, shaving down the 'bump' and putting the track back, only to discover I hadn't taken enough off. Oh what a mess!
LT1Poncho, I am a digital subscriber, so I will go back and look at that issue. Thank you!!!
Dave P, I recall watching a layout tour video of Eric's layout. It was probably 5 years ago now. I can recall various scenes, but not so much about the grades. I'll have to take another look! Soo much to see; so little time!
Dave C, I want to replace the caboose lighting as well. You have a great observation about all the drag that is on a train of passenger cars! I didn't think of it.
Art, you have a good point about helpers and wheel slipping actually being part of the fun!! Yes, I threw a traction tire twice pulling the 6-car train, and finally just cut it off with scissors.
Rubin, You are so right about traction tires on steam engines! I have replaced them on diesels and steam engines alike. Some, I haven't even replaced them and ran without. I have some engines missing them and don't even recall which ones.
Thank you for all the great comments!!
Mark,
Sorry if I'm slightly off-topic, but I've been reading back and see some discussions about grades and tires. I may have one of the whackiest grades out there but my MU'd diesels easily handle these 9 cars of real marble from my quarry up about 15% to the main. The scale weight of each car is roughly 90K. Admittedly, this is more a lack of space thing than any sort of point to prove, but it does work. There are some quarries in Vermont with very steep grades that use switch-backs.
I shot this video back in the "proof-of-concept" stage, so things look a little ragged. (like my wiring) Sadly, I had to dismantle my layout for renovations to the house. When I rebuild my layout this winter, I will try to cut the quarry branch down to <10%.
For inquiring minds, there are a few tires at the top, but not as many as one might expect.
As an aside, maybe someone can tell me how to put new tires on a Railking SD-60, short of buying a new one. It seems to be ghastly job when compared to MTH Premium locos and makes the case for just MUing it with something that will actually pull.
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@endless tracks thank you for writing. I do not think your comments were off-topic at all! The last few pages of discussion have dealt with the design, building, testing, and first running of the revised layout with increased grades. I had performed a run of 2 steam engines pulling and one pusher just for fun on the previous rendition when the layout was a simple over and under. Two engines would have sufficed, but I wanted to just see how it looked. Your video of the 3 engines moving the load of marble up your very steep grade. Incidentally, those marble loads look great! I am sure the grades out of the quarries are rather steep as well. Thank you for the video!
I'm sorry you had to dismantle your layout, but that provides a reason to improve the next, as you pointed out.
I am afraid I can't help you with replacing tires on an SD60. The most modern, and only 6-axel diesel I have is an SD7, which doesn't have much run time.
At some point, this whole thread is going to transition from "Track plans and layout design" to "Scenery and Structures". Maybe it already has, though I think I have been proving that the design works. I'll be asking the moderators to move it, which I think will be seamless to all who are following. I'll check on that when asking.
@Mark Boyce posted:Thank you, Rubin, Art, Gene!
First, I must say I am always humbled by the ways in which my words reach each person on the Forum. Thank you for the encouraging feedback!! I hope I make your day a little brighter, Rubin, Gene, et all!
My exposure to model trains was Model Railroad magazines. At the time John Allen was the king of scenery; and a lot of creativity as well. HO was the way to go. That said, my desire has been to make scenery believable, though I am not opposed to adding something for fun. I have to be. When scenery has been in place, I have never known when a whimsical article will just appear overnight!
Rubin, great story about you being there when they were taking the display down!
I will add that I received a replacement Cripple Creek Oil and Gas beam pump from Menards today. My original made some noise, bound up, and snapped a coupling at first. I received an RMA as soon as I contacted them. This one works great! It has just enough sound to be believable.
That is the name of our gun range we built. I will definitely have to find one.
Evening Mark, I hope you're doing well with your recovery! From what I have seen and read here on your page from the last time I was here you sure have been busy!
I think your passenger car lighting looks great! Sometime down the road I have a bunch of Amtrak cars to do if I ever get around to it! LOL
I can't wait to see your PS3 upgrade in action, sound like it might be the ticket for your grade issue. Either way it is nice to see your plugging away at projects you can do!
FWIW I did get out in the train room the last couple of days but have been too tired at the end of the day to post anything, I will be posting in What did you do on your layout today thread tomorrow morning before I go back out to try and get more done.
Have a great night and you will probably be reading this at 0 dark thirty as your sleep pattern is still a little off!
Mark,
Thanks for your nice reply. I said "off topic" because I can't offer much in the LED lighting department, except to say that I have had terrific results using USB chargers to power LED lighting in remote buildings. Simply take your old camera or phone cord, cut the end off, and hook to your remote buildings or street lighting. The phone chargers are 5 VDC just like the LEDs, so no resisters are required. I tried it on a hunch. If you mess up the polarity, just switch the leads. I put all my layout stuff away, so I don't have a picture (spent 2 hours looking..LOL).
I'd love to see a video of your (3) steam engines in the arrangement you described. I only have 2 steamers, but have been drooling for over a year on a Maine Central USRA Light Mikado. At ~$1,200.00 it's just not in the budget right now. I have several diesels and have been pushed, more or less, into 3-axle power just to get the road names I want. Railfanning in northing New England can be rather pathetic comparatively, with very limited road names available in O-scale models. When they model Vermont Railways, for example, in 3-axle power, that's what I have to buy. Life could be worse!
Pics are ones I took last fall of the world's deepest/largest granite quarry in Barre, VT. The gondolas are full of tailings, which frequently get shipped to coastal states for rip-rap and seawalls. Each large block around the yard is marked with dimensions. When I have more time, I want to follow suit and mark the blocks I use. I also bought a scale Atlas-Copco rock drill to set up once I get back in the swing of things here.
I love your walking beam model. It's great to have real action in the scenery! I have a lot to learn about scenery and structures, so I'm looking forward to your next topic. Take care!
Bob
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Thank you Southern4501, Mike, Bob!!
Southern, it sounds like the Menards walking beam pump is a must have!! 
Mike, I sent you a 'Like' in the wee hours, but waited to write. I go back to the surgeon tomorrow and wrap up PT on Thursday. I am doing a lot better, but hope he lets me go back on my anti-inflammatory for my sciatic nerve that was damaged almost 5 years ago. That med acts as a blood thinner. I didn't know that, since they had me on a different one when I had surgery two years ago.
Thank you on the LED lit cars! I am very happy with them. I need to research what resister I need to add the units and LEDs into my cabooses/cabeese. I'm glad you have been able to get into the train room some, and look forward to seeing what you have been doing!
Bob, Oh now I see what you meant by off topic; the LED lighting. I have gotten used to us going back and forth in projects so much, I missed that! Good point. Good idea on the USB phone chargers. It seems all of us have extra of those these days.
Here's the video I took of the double header with a helper on the end. This was when the layout was configured as over and under. The conversion to what I have now wasn't that bad. I was able to reuse a lot. All of these engines were bought used; averaged $450 each. Yes, new steam engines are really steep.
The photographs of the quarry are great! I have heard of it near Barre, Vermont! Thank you for the photographs!!
Great video Mark! I really like the helper at the end!
Great video Mark! Good luck tomorrow.
Gene
Mark,
Nice job on the video(s). I watched several! Once you get started on Youtube, it can be hard to turn off. Perhaps you can relate! I also watch ed your passenger cars. Nice job on the lighting!
I was noting in particular the amazing layout construction, and also the log cars. Did you make the logs? I see most log cars come with loads of 4' pulpwood, but I went out in the woods and cut up real red oak. I did that mostly for weight. I bought about 10 Central Vermont flats and use them with my (40') logs.
I also have a milk train as I saw in your "first run" video. Seems we have some like-minded interests! I have some Hood milk cars which I pull with a Rutland RR Steamer to a yard serviced by my Boston & Maine steam switcher. That is the extent of my present-day steamer inventory. The run from the Vermont dairies to Boston milk market was the order of the day back then. Where I cheat is I also tack on 2-3 Central Vermont milk cars but Rutland and CV were mortal enemies. Anything CV would NEVER be behind a Rutland loco!
Not entirely sure what you're having done as I am still a newbie here, but good luck! I'll be 70 in 6 weeks and have had my share of things tweaked over the years, including 2 fusions, 2-carpal tunnels, 1-knee, 1-shoulder, etc , so I can relate! Best wishes!
Bob
Thank you, Mike, Gene, Bob!
Bob, you are right about watching YouTube. I like to watch short videos of trains; I end up skipping forward on longer videos. The logs came with the cars. They really looked great, but the chains were so hard to hook on to stay with arthritis, I sold them last year. That gave me some money for something else, but now I can't recall what?
Ah, you saw the 4 Otto Milk cars. I saw the first one at a train show, and recalled the Otto radio commercial from childhood with the cream top bottles. I happened to see in small print under the door it said to return to the plant at New Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. I didn't know it was there. My wife's grandparents were from New Bethlehem, a small river town kind of in the middle of nowhere here in Northwestern Pennsylvania. Then I saw Mr Muffin put out a special run with 2 different car numbers, so I ordered them. Before they arrived, I bought another, with yet another car number. That is how my milk train or milk section of the iced reefers came about. I know milk cars are quite popular in Vermont and maybe other places in New England, travelling to Boston.
I had a second, less evasive back surgery six weeks ago. Two years ago, I had a lumbar fusion. Oh, I had one knee replaced two years before that. I've had carpal tunnel surgery on each hand twice - 20 years apart. I'll be 67 soon, so I am right behind you. I seem to not resist writing about a surgery to explain a gap in working on the layout, and these guys here really hold me to it to not overdo it too fast. Everyone here is an encouragement!! Thank you for the best wishes!!!
I'll have to post an update on my PS3 upgrade thread. While they aren't beyond my skill level, there seems to be a different sticking point each time. Usually the problem is mechanical, not electrical.
Well done MARK….enjoyed the WM Fireballs….starting to become a favorite RR of mine too…thanks keep up the good work….also like the pusher at the end.👍👍
