You're right Gene, Jon said it was a Standard Tank Car Co. design. I must have been having another senior moment.
Gene,
I see differences in the ends...early Dreadnaught, improved Dreadnaught and steel plate but I don't see the difference in the steps...ladders at one end and grabs at the other end.
The G-50-20 used a "Z" post for one stile of the ladder. The G-50-23 used a conventional ladder with stiles on either side.
Both end styles are "improved". The -20 are an inverse type. The small Wales are biforcated.
Gene
Gene,
Difficult to see the difference of the stiles in the photos but I appreciate the info.
The kit instructions are not the level of a Tichy kit but JB has been very gracious answering my questions and even provided photos.
Thanks for starting the thread.
Photos from JB @ GPM:
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I am curious as to what you found lacking in the instructions. I wrote the instructions and looking for feedback.
Gene
Gene,
Seriously??
- parts list
- clear and concise steps with corresponding illustrations or photos with parts identified
Go to the Tichy Train Group website and review the Tank Car instructions. Even a novice can build a respectable model following their directions.
Thank you for the feedback.
I have written over thirty kit instructions for a number of manufacturers. My approach has been to assume a certain skill level of the modeler. I haven't done a complex plastic kit like this before. I will keep your comments in mind as I finish up my current project
Gene
Gene,
You're welcome.
Below is the text from page 4. I, and other builders, would find it helpful if you would please add the part numbers in the ().
Once that the weight is installed you can continue adding the bolsters() and cross bearers() and ties(). The trainline is formed from .032” brass wire.(I am familiar with this part and its location but an illustration/template with the two bends would be helpful). There is one part that must be added to the trainline (where??) before installing the cross bearers and bolsters. It is the branch pipe() which can be found on the 279 sprue. At this point you can add the weight and the 273 center sill. Add the remaining cross bearers() and ties(). Next apply the top flanges() to the cross bearers and ties. At this point, you will want to decide how to attach you truck of choice. The bolster top plate() needs to be drilled and tapped to accept the truck mount screw. If you use the Protocraft truck, you should consider adding a brass insert threaded for the 2mm screw. The bolster diaphragm() needs two small triangle shaped pieces() to at the point of the vertical rivet strips. Look closely and you will see a slight groove in the diaphragm.
Thank you!
Old Goat posted:The trainline is formed from .032” brass wire.(I am familiar with this part and its location but an illustration/template with the two bends would be helpful).
It would also be helpful to note that this must be done in place with the bends aligned properly so that all of the cross bearers and bolsters will thread onto this brass wire. The order in which this is all done is somewhat important - it may be obvious to the advanced experienced modeler, but if you don't pause to think about it just a little, one can paint themselves into a corner with this kit.
The bolster diaphragm() needs two small triangle shaped pieces() to at the point of the vertical rivet strips. Look closely and you will see a slight groove in the diaphragm.
The order in which these are added is somewhat important - earlier helps as access later leads to convoluted manual manipulations and colorful language.
There is also an entire sprue of parts that is not described or referred to at all in the instructions; there are parts with a handedness and which is left/right is undefined. If one is very familiar with the prototype, and an advance experience modeler, possessed of patience and thought, then this is a good, fun kit to build. The challenge was enjoyed.
The comments are appreciated. The next kit instructions will be easier to follow.
Gene
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Gene,
How about the courtesy of providing part numbers (above) or improved instructions for the GS kit?
Gene D posted:The comments are appreciated. The next kit instructions will be easier to follow.
Gene
Gene,
Thank you for patiently listening to our suggestions. I haven't yet assembled my kit but I am overwhelmed not by the sheer number of parts but by the quality of the detail.
It would be nice to have each sprue listed and the parts identified one by one as well as updating the instructions to fill in some of the missing sequential steps.
But with all due respect I own most of the Tichy HO cars from when Don Tichy released them in the mid 80's as well as all 3 of the San Juan box cars and the Grandt Line UTLX type V frameless tank car. The GPM gon is light years more complex (AND detailed) with many times as many parts than even the state of the art San Juan kits. It is not a beginner's kit. Attempting to write instructions for a novice could result in a fifty page instructions book, not to mention the time and cost to write that "book".
Rule292 posted:I haven't yet assembled my kit but I am overwhelmed not by the sheer number of parts but by the quality of the detail.
That 1st look in the box and seeing all those neatly bagged sprues of parts is a little intimidating....
It would be nice to have each sprue listed and the parts identified one by one as well as updating the instructions to fill in some of the missing sequential steps.
Yes. Almost every sprue is listed, but that's almost -- what I found to be a more critical need was the sequence of assembly. I think that I managed to avoid painting myself into a corner due to doing anything out of sequence, but then I assembled mine very slowly....
The GPM gon is light years more complex (AND detailed) with many times as many parts than even the state of the art San Juan kits. It is not a beginner's kit. Attempting to write instructions for a novice could result in a fifty page instructions book, not to mention the time and cost to write that "book".
It's not only the level of detail but what I found most impressive was the goodness of fit of every part - very well engineered. 50 pages? Not all that much actually.....if you get someone whose career depends on writing for a living, 
Make it a pdf and let folks download it off the GP web site....
mwb posted:Rule292 posted:I haven't yet assembled my kit but I am overwhelmed not by the sheer number of parts but by the quality of the detail.That 1st look in the box and seeing all those neatly bagged sprues of parts is a little intimidating....It would be nice to have each sprue listed and the parts identified one by one as well as updating the instructions to fill in some of the missing sequential steps.
Yes. Almost every sprue is listed, but that's almost -- what I found to be a more critical need was the sequence of assembly. I think that I managed to avoid painting myself into a corner due to doing anything out of sequence, but then I assembled mine very slowly....
The GPM gon is light years more complex (AND detailed) with many times as many parts than even the state of the art San Juan kits. It is not a beginner's kit. Attempting to write instructions for a novice could result in a fifty page instructions book, not to mention the time and cost to write that "book".
It's not only the level of detail but what I found most impressive was the goodness of fit of every part - very well engineered. 50 pages? Not all that much actually.....if you get someone whose career depends on writing for a living,
You got it Martin! That is where I was hoping the conversation might lead about the instructions. 
I suspect that this kit is a labor of love for GPM as well as Gene. As are MOST of what is presented in O scale. A big business with unlimited resources and large profit margins it is not (remember the old saying about making a million in model trains is to start with two million).
Gene's resin kit instructions are very good. No reason to believe that our suggestions won't result in updates to these instructions to make it even better!
All I ask on our part as consumers is to have patience with both GPM and Gene. This kit is groundbreaking for the hobby and quite a few of us want to see the line expand and prosper. Let's give all parties time to make any improvements that are necessary and not turn this into another 3rd rail Cincinnatian grumblefest.
Rule292 posted:This kit is groundbreaking for the hobby and quite a few of us want to see the line expand and prosper..
Indeed - for the price, it's a bargain and good fun as well. I'd love to see more kits of this quality and price.
mwb posted:Rule292 posted:This kit is groundbreaking for the hobby and quite a few of us want to see the line expand and prosper..Indeed - for the price, it's a bargain and good fun as well. I'd love to see more kits of this quality and price.
Thirty six foot Fowler box car for your era through mine? Any good long lasting double sheathed cars?
Jimmy is a west coast guy so I suspect he prefers west coast cars... any ones that are popular and long lasting that have not been done?
Nobody seems to think that an X25/X29 PRR car will get anywhere so I won't push any harder for one.
Gene, thank you for all of your contributions to O scale. It is definitely a better place because of you.
I'd buy x29 versions that haven't already been done, but I'd prefer to see nice x25's in both box and auto car versions.
Rule292 posted:Thirty six foot Fowler box car for your era through mine?
Interesting....
Jimmy is a west coast guy so I suspect he prefers west coast cars... any ones that are popular and long lasting that have not been done?
Not so interesting - West Coast cars...
Nobody seems to think that an X25/X29 PRR car will get anywhere so I won't push any harder for one.
Think earlier - X-23 and earlier yet.....
An x23 would be interesting, but from a manufacturers point of view, would any of the as built version cars still be on the rails in the early 50's?
On a side note, Pacific Limited did a x23 horizontal sheathing / round roof version, does anyone know if Pat did a horizontal sheathing / flat roof version of the x23 ?
bob3 posted:An x23 would be interesting, but from a manufacturers point of view, would any of the as built version cars still be on the rails in the early 50's?
On a side note, Pacific Limited did a x23 horizontal sheathing / round roof version, does anyone know if Pat did a horizontal sheathing / flat roof version of the x23 ?
From a kit producer's viewpoint it might be an opportunity to provide something that has only really been available in brass once, is priced now well beyond most modelers means, and would be a huge upgrade from the Ambroid kit thereby filling which might be a significant niche - guys that might have wanted 2-3 of these could again get and build their own for 1/3 to 1/4 the price of the brass car not unlike the GS gon vs. the PSC car.
I'd love to see a high quality x23 kit at a hon ea, but I'm trying to get at to maximize sales, the "niche" needs to be as large as possible (even at a hon each, I'm assuming if you are going to spend that much money, and a fair amount of time to build the kit, you are not going to buy a kit if it doesn't fit your modeling era)
I don't have my RPC's handy to check, but I do know off the top of my head that the prr started modifiying the x23's in the thirties, but I don't remember if it was some or all. If it was all, then a kit representing the as built configuration won't be good for the post war crowd, and a kit representing the rebuilds won't be good for before the thirties, thus limiting sales i.e. as beautiful as it is, as a pre war modeler, I'm not buying the Gon as it is a post war car.
According to the RP CYC, there were 6911 X23 box cars made and 93 per cent still in existence in January 1945. By July 1955 only 11 were listed in revenue service in the ORER.
The X23 family of cars are certainly nice but realistically how many will sell given the number of Pac Limited cars that sold.
Even more, one must ask how well will the cars continue to sell after the first "run". Not being judgmental but is the early 20th century/19th century modeling era growing? I suspect it is headed the same was as the WWII era that I model - declining.
Were you guys in the P48 meeting at Chicago when the discussion turned to the Pennsy being a "dead" road as far as O scalers were concerned? That was an interesting discussion.
Thanks rule 292, I missed the discussion about prr modeling dying, that's fine by me, as I want to buy a sunset t1 someday, hopefully the price will be down.
bob3 posted:Thanks rule 292, I missed the discussion about prr modeling dying, that's fine by me, as I want to buy a sunset t1 someday, hopefully the price will be down.
The discussion centered around the fact that Norm shelved the PRR X31 box car project. He was told by folks that PRR just does not sell and that it would be a white (well box car red) elephant. That was seconded by others that said that PRR is not a big seller. I see the Sunset L1 hasn't completely sold out which bodes poorly for more PRR steam. We were hoping for a G5 ten wheeler, an H8/9 Lines East and another run of the I1 with a short tank. Probably not happening, though Bob Heil has mentioned that Sunset might do E2 Electrics if the reservations show enough interest.
Sad, since the PRR X29 is the most popular box car of the steam and early diesel era and I'd love to see someone do all of the combinations of sides and ends and patch panels. Oh well, folks must just be tired of PRR things and all the PRR oldheads are calling clear signals in the sky.
Oh, and I'd love to find a nice Sunset PRR S2 in 2 rail but the ones I've found are usually in lesser condition yet priced high.
Rule292, Thanks for the details. An x29 with patch panels would be great, but would it sell ? I sure can't argue with the cautions given the hobbies changing demographics and the overall economy
bob3 posted:Rule292, Thanks for the details. An x29 with patch panels would be great, but would it sell ? I sure can't argue with the cautions given the hobbies changing demographics and the overall economy
Welcome! I would figure that whomever was cutting the molds for an 1923 ARA/X29 would simply duplicate the sides with different details since the dimensions of each were alike. I think this is one place a plastic kit would shine given the fact that the dies are all cut with CNC machinery. One could simply clone the first car side pattern and make the modifications in the subsequent "versions". The rest of the car would be the same.
Whether it would sell is a whole 'nother story. I do maintain that the future of the scale is in SD70's and ES's and not in the era we model. But for now there are still enough of us left that like this era. And in HO steam era stuff still sells big.
Oh, and the rumor was that the next GPM plastic model would be an SP wood caboose. As with the logging mallet not my cup of tea but I'm sure it's gonna be a star.
Time to dig out the list of Ted Culotta's essential freight cars and see which ones have not been done yet in our scale.
Rule292 posted:According to the RP CYC, there were 6911 X23 box cars made and 93 per cent still in existence in January 1945. By July 1955 only 11 were listed in revenue service in the ORER.
The X23 family of cars are certainly nice but realistically how many will sell given the number of Pac Limited cars that sold.
Well, if I could buy 3 kits at the price of one Pac Lmt car, I'd probably would buy 3 for my CVRR (yes they have some lettered for CVRR), and maybe 2 more after than just to bash those 2 into the MoW car....just for fun.
Even more, one must ask how well will the cars continue to sell after the first "run". Not being judgmental but is the early 20th century/19th century modeling era growing? I suspect it is headed the same was as the WWII era that I model - declining.
Can ask the same question regarding these gons and any kit - where is the market saturation point per unit time.....lots of guessing there. I haven't bothered to do a 2nd run of traction flat cars for a couple of years. Possible success might be just selling out of a 1st run.
Were you guys in the P48 meeting at Chicago when the discussion turned to the Pennsy being a "dead" road as far as O scalers were concerned? That was an interesting discussion.
News to me......but if that's true just about everything prior to 1970 is dead......but then I don;t know the secret handshake to get into that meeting either.
"a G5 ten wheeler, an H8/9 Lines East and another run of the I1 with a short tank"
Maybe something that has never been done before or only been done 1 time a long time ago would be better received?
mwb posted:Rule292 posted:According to the RP CYC, there were 6911 X23 box cars made and 93 per cent still in existence in January 1945. By July 1955 only 11 were listed in revenue service in the ORER.
The X23 family of cars are certainly nice but realistically how many will sell given the number of Pac Limited cars that sold.
Well, if I could buy 3 kits at the price of one Pac Lmt car, I'd probably would buy 3 for my CVRR (yes they have some lettered for CVRR), and maybe 2 more after than just to bash those 2 into the MoW car....just for fun.
Even more, one must ask how well will the cars continue to sell after the first "run". Not being judgmental but is the early 20th century/19th century modeling era growing? I suspect it is headed the same was as the WWII era that I model - declining.
Can ask the same question regarding these gons and any kit - where is the market saturation point per unit time.....lots of guessing there. I haven't bothered to do a 2nd run of traction flat cars for a couple of years. Possible success might be just selling out of a 1st run.
Were you guys in the P48 meeting at Chicago when the discussion turned to the Pennsy being a "dead" road as far as O scalers were concerned? That was an interesting discussion.
News to me......but if that's true just about everything prior to 1970 is dead......but then I don;t know the secret handshake to get into that meeting either.
"a G5 ten wheeler, an H8/9 Lines East and another run of the I1 with a short tank"
Maybe something that has never been done before or only been done 1 time a long time ago would be better received?
They were serious as a heart attack when they said that PRR is a slow seller and is dead/dying.
I'm clueless at this hobby since it seems every day there is another E or F unit being rerun and they seem to keep selling and selling... from Atlas all the way up to Key.
Anyhoo, I've given up on new PRR steam but hope springs eternal that we might get some more as-of-yet-undone popular freight cars.
RMC - Essential Freight Cars by Ted Cullota
# Year Month Title
- 2001 Aug War Emergency gons
1 2003 Apr St. Louis-San Francisco single sheathed boxcar
2 2003 May Great Northern's 1937 double-sheathed boxcars
3 2003 Jun Milwaukee Road's single-sheathed boxcars
4 2003 Jul NP's 10000-series double-sheathed boxcars
5 2003 Aug Cotton Belt's double-sheathed boxcars
6 2003 Sep Southern Pacific's single-sheathed boxcars
7 2003 Oct Chicago & North Western's single-sheathed boxcars
8 2003 Nov CN's 1929 single-sheathed boxcars
9 2004 Jan Canadian Pacific's minibox
10 2004 Feb CB&Q's XM-25/26 class boxcars
11 2004 Mar Southern Ry. SU class boxcars
12 2004 May UTLX class X-3 tank cars
13 2004 Jun UP's B-50-17 rebuilt boxcars
14 2004 Jul USRA 50-ton single-sheathed boxcars
15 2004 Aug PFE ice-cooled reefers
16 2004 Sep USRA 40-ton, double-sheathed boxcars
17 2004 Nov Illinois Central single-sheathed automobile cars
18 2004 Dec GSX, AT&SF, Rutland, and NOT&M stock cars
19 2005 Jan New York Central 1916 auto cars
20 2005 Mar QA&P boxcar, carbon black covered hopper, vinegar tank car
21 2005 Apr ARA double-sheathed box and auto cars
22 2005 May Alternate ARA single-sheathed box cars
23.1 2005 Jul Wagon-top and ribbed-side boxcars
23.2 2005 Sep 1932 ARA 40-foot steel boxcars
24 2005 Oct Pennsy's R50B express reefer
25 2005 Nov Steam-era gondolas
26 2005 Dec Freight loads for gondolas
27 2006 Jan Pennsylvania's X31 round-roof boxcar
28 2006 Feb Lehigh Valley wrong-way boxcars
29 2006 Apr American Car & Foundry's 1920s wood refrigerator cars
30 2006 May Dominion's Fowler patent, single-sheathed boxcars
31 2006 Jun 40-foot Fowler boxcars
32 2006 Jul Soo Line single-sheathed boxcars
33 2006 Aug Santa Fe's rebuilt USRA reefers
34 2006 Oct NYC USRA-design boxcars
35 2007 Jan The X29 boxcar: Pt. I
36 2007 Feb The X29 boxcar: Pt. II
37 2007 Apr B&O's M-26 Series boxcars
38 2007 Jul Katy's single-sheathed boxcars
39 2007 Sep Wabash/NJI&I SS box cars
40 2008 Jan Early Pullman-Standard PS-1
41 2008 Apr Fifty-foot single-sheathed boxcars
42 2008 Jun Spencer Kellogg 231: Standard Tank Car tanker
43 2008 Sep Post-war AAR boxcars
44 2009 Feb Union Pacific's ACR boxcars
45 2009 Jul AC&F Type 11 tank cars
Courtesy of Steam Era Freight Cars group message 61846
I'm still wondering if the UTLX X3 would sell in quantity. Basic black, covers many decades, seems like the biggest change over their life would be brakes / maybe trucks. I'd certainly buy a LOT of kits assuming they were done as nicely as the Gon.
Rule292 posted:mwb posted:Rule292 posted:According to the RP CYC, there were 6911 X23 box cars made and 93 per cent still in existence in January 1945. By July 1955 only 11 were listed in revenue service in the ORER.
The X23 family of cars are certainly nice but realistically how many will sell given the number of Pac Limited cars that sold.
Well, if I could buy 3 kits at the price of one Pac Lmt car, I'd probably would buy 3 for my CVRR (yes they have some lettered for CVRR), and maybe 2 more after than just to bash those 2 into the MoW car....just for fun.
Even more, one must ask how well will the cars continue to sell after the first "run". Not being judgmental but is the early 20th century/19th century modeling era growing? I suspect it is headed the same was as the WWII era that I model - declining.
Can ask the same question regarding these gons and any kit - where is the market saturation point per unit time.....lots of guessing there. I haven't bothered to do a 2nd run of traction flat cars for a couple of years. Possible success might be just selling out of a 1st run.
Were you guys in the P48 meeting at Chicago when the discussion turned to the Pennsy being a "dead" road as far as O scalers were concerned? That was an interesting discussion.
News to me......but if that's true just about everything prior to 1970 is dead......but then I don;t know the secret handshake to get into that meeting either.
"a G5 ten wheeler, an H8/9 Lines East and another run of the I1 with a short tank"
Maybe something that has never been done before or only been done 1 time a long time ago would be better received?
They were serious as a heart attack when they said that PRR is a slow seller and is dead/dying.
I'm clueless at this hobby since it seems every day there is another E or F unit being rerun and they seem to keep selling and selling... from Atlas all the way up to Key.
Anyhoo, I've given up on new PRR steam but hope springs eternal that we might get some more as-of-yet-undone popular freight cars.
It appears the Fs and Es have replaced the NYC Hudsons and K4s of the previous era as an ongoing best seller,just saying! not my era but the GPM gon kit builds into a superb model just shows what can be produced in plastic today.
bob3 posted:I'm still wondering if the UTLX X3 would sell in quantity. Basic black, covers many decades, seems like the biggest change over their life would be brakes / maybe trucks. I'd certainly buy a LOT of kits assuming they were done as nicely as the Gon.
The X3 is certainly the most "needed" freight car of the steam era as for sheer numbers but investing in the tooling and production costs as a kit certainly is stymied by it's lack of zing. Most of us could use a few of varying gallonage from 4k to 10k.
Pretty much all of the cars on the Essentials list have been done at one time or another, if not in plastic then in resin or brass.
The X3, the Southern SU box car and the 36' Fowler box cars are standouts that have not yet been done.
I purchased the Detail Associates GS gon kit on eBay. Here is a section from the instructions...which include general info and photos of the prototype car, general assembly tips, a scan of the sprues with part numbers. Well done and only eight pages. Still a challenge to build but not frustrating.
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Rule292 posted:...Were you guys in the P48 meeting at Chicago when the discussion turned to the Pennsy being a "dead" road as far as O scalers were concerned? That was an interesting discussion.
Not as small a group as us modern modelers. I think that group consisted of Jim Lincoln and me and maybe one other.
Started on my build. Part #272 is properly seated in the slot on the floor, the separators are glued and true to the center sill beam but it has a nasty curve. Email sent to GPM.
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According to GPM, long parts may contain a warp. I removed the separators and made several passes along the flange with my thumb and forefinger to minimize the warp. GPM did offer to replace part #272. Part #273 contains a minor warp which should be correctable.
Carefully inspect parts and remove casting gates:
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Rule292, thanks for the essential freight car list. It is interesting how many have been done in o scale.
