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Been awaiting this announcement since forever,  and it arrived yesterday.   Looks like Scott is going to do both of these fantastic locomotives....and in both two and three rail!  The add says pilots will be fixed, and best of all....NO China drive.  Full electronic features are listed, including smoke.   All wheel drive too.  Biggest challenger here will be paying for the half dozen I will surely want to install on the roster.  I would imagine that we'll soon see an expanded ad from Sunset on this most awesome of subjects.  Huzzah!

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Originally Posted by Southwest Hiawatha:

That's going to be a great model, but I'm not sure I'm willing to spend that kind of money for that or any other diesel. We'll see if I can resist temptation. Maybe if my ads on the Buy/Sell board work out...

I think of it as, if not a bargain, a dang good price.  It does have an ABS body, and at first that put me off a bit, but I trust 3rd rail to provide its usual detail, etc.  For that o get a scale, accurate, detailed model with cruise, sound, smoke, and all-wheel drive, etc. So I rate it as somewhere north of Legacy - all the features and Vison-like detailing.  And if it runs half as well as the ToT's loco, it is a jewel.   

Last edited by Lee Willis

Just to say...the "China drive' (really? Same drive philosophy as on Lionel PW diesels;

why not "Jersey drive"?) is just fine.

 

I have a 3rd Rail GE Dash-9 with the much-lauded single-motor/driveshaft/universal

mechanism. While in the process of painting/testing the loco, the drive failed (shaft/u-joint).

Lost interest in the project; sits in a box; brass ship ballast. Wish it HAD been a 'China".

I've reserved a 3rd Rail R-2 NYC electric; here's hoping. If I could just buy the body shell...

Don't forget, if you would like another paint scheme, such as the SP Bloody Nose or Tiger Stripes, send Scott an email with your request. If he gets enough requests for the paint scheme, it's always a possibility to produce them. Such as the F7 Yellow Bonnets Those were not on the original order form.

Originally Posted by D500:

Just to say...the "China drive' (really? Same drive philosophy as on Lionel PW diesels;

why not "Jersey drive"?) is just fine.

 

I have a 3rd Rail GE Dash-9 with the much-lauded single-motor/driveshaft/universal

mechanism. While in the process of painting/testing the loco, the drive failed (shaft/u-joint).

Lost interest in the project; sits in a box; brass ship ballast. Wish it HAD been a 'China".

I've reserved a 3rd Rail R-2 NYC electric; here's hoping. If I could just buy the body shell...

My experience is that those drives are pretty easy to fix, so it might be worth diving into that project.  

I'm believing for photo-etch safety tread walkways and no zinc- shrink truck sideframes!

Also like to see rubber (insulation matl.)  air hoses  and MU cables on the pilot ends.  And how about six, tiny, scale D47 traction motors with 65:12 gear sets on each axle, working interior cab gauge lights, a fully functional crank hand brake on the long hood......ohhhhhh never mind !

Those of you that keep requesting EMD Demonstrator models, now is your chance to get the fantastic looking Red & Maroon, SD7 Demonstrator #990. Sunset/3rd Rail/GGD requires at least 20 reservation/orders to produce the Demonstrator model, so lets get behind this stunning model!

 

I have pulled-out the original EMD Styling & Painting drawing for this, and will be furnishing a digital scanned copy to Scott Mann at the Chicago O-Scale March Meet.

Originally Posted by John Korling:

Got excited initially when I noticed that they're also offering it in Espee, but unfortunately it looks like they're only offering it in Black Widow (would prefer the bloody nose paint scheme).

 

Oh well.

Not a problem, as Scott will offer whatever he receives 20 reservations for. The SP would have had three different paint schemes, i.e. as delivered SD7 ('Switcher' Tiger Stripes), SD9 as delivered Black Widow, and later "Bloody Nose" styling.

 

Think 20 of each!

Originally Posted by Forrest Jerome:

i'm sure you can get one in Daylight, Jon!   

 

LOL, aside from the fact that unlike Lionel, Scott at 3rd Rail would never compromise his company's standards by selling railroads short including the SP by using inappropriately applied paint schemes like that, I'd leave that to those prototypically deranged and challenged heretics/heathens like Brian, Hancock52 and everyone else who jumped onboard that diabolical bandwagon. 

I hope that in addition to roadname-specific details, that Scott will also make sure to model the railing stanchions that are specific to the SD7 (cast metal "T" bar type) and the SD9 (sheet steel) respectively.  Historically in O gauge the manufacturers tended to just use one design (the sheet steel) for both versions which while accurate for the SD/GP9 and later prototypes, isn't accurate for the GP7 & SD7.  It may be subtle, but it is noticeable nonetheless and is one of the quick identifying features to tell the difference between the two prototypes.

Originally Posted by Southwest Hiawatha:

Speaking of Daylight freight engines, how about an SD-9 painted in the "Kodachrome"  paint scheme designed for the SPSF merger that never happened? It's not quite a Daylight, but the colors are similar and it would give the bright color junkies something prototypical to play with.

 

SP Kodachrome SD9

 

 

You know, as big of an SP fan that I am, I've never been that keen on the Kodachrome paint scheme; just the very idea of seeing SP engines with warbonnet-derived styling is somewhat off-putting to me (and the Santa Fe is also one of my favorites).  As an aside I never cared that much for SP's experimental "Popsicle" paint scheme used on their TE70-4S MK rebuilds either.

 

I also like SP's Daylight scheme very much.

 

But frankly, if given the choice between Kodachrome and a fictional "Daylight" scheme that Forrest above alluded to I'll take the Kodachrome any day of the week, simply because that's what was used in real life. 

I do believe Hot  Water will get his wish...if Scott will make them, I'll spring for both 990 and 991 in Big Red paint!   If this lokkie turns out as well as it has the potential to be, I'm seriously going to have to take out a loan to get all of these badd boys!  How about a pair of Espee SD7s in Black Widow paint on the front of those newly announced Sunset LTD. Budds, for a set of ailing Alco PAs! IIRC, about 1/3 of the Espee's had boilers.  Right now I'm looking at PRR 7s and 9s, and B&LE whatever he does....and those Big Reds would be awesome too !

Originally Posted by jaygee:

I do believe Hot  Water will get his wish...if Scott will make them, I'll spring for both 990 and 991 in Big Red paint!   If this lokkie turns out as well as it has the potential to be, I'm seriously going to have to take out a loan to get all of these badd boys!  How about a pair of Espee SD7s in Black Widow paint on the front of those newly announced Sunset LTD. Budds, for a set of ailing Alco PAs! IIRC, about 1/3 of the Espee's had boilers. 

The SP SD7 units were delivered in the switcher "Tiger Stripe" styling, and did not have steam generators. The SD9 units were delivered in the Black Widow styling and many were equipped with steam generators for passenger & commute service.

Originally Posted by John Korling:
...

You know, as big of an SP fan that I am, I've never been that keen on the Kodachrome paint scheme; just the very idea of seeing SP engines with warbonnet-derived styling is somewhat off-putting to me (and the Santa Fe is also one of my favorites).  As an aside I never cared that much for SP's experimental "Popsicle" paint scheme used on their TE70-4S MK rebuilds either.

...

I, too, had mixed feelings about Kodachrome (though I have the MTH SD9's and the Atlas SD35 in that scheme). Growing up living near SP trackage and working near ATSF trackage I was bothered by the merger, but at least the heritage didn't disappear in the new paint job.

 

I used to think the "Popsicle" scheme was a Lionel fantasy until I spotted a photo of the prototype with this pattern on the web.

 

SP_Foursquare

 

 

SP7032eugene

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Last edited by AGHRMatt
Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Originally Posted by jaygee:

Yo, HW....Espee Into the '90s...Don Strack, IIRC....gives the full poop on the SD7s,  Mine is buried right now, but some of the 5300s did come with boilers.  As you said, All tiger stripes in the beginning.

You might want to loan that book to Scott.

What may be a better book would be Southern Pacific Historic Diesels, Volume 4, SD7 and SD9 Locomotives by Joseph Strapac.  I think he still has some copies available through his publishing company, Shade Tree Books. 

 

It will be interesting to see which details appears on the models as there were several variations headlights, Gyra-Lights, and emergency lights.  Some had barrel signal lights, some were delivered without any extra lighting.  Some had a single fuel tank, some had a dual fuel tank, some had a fuel tank/water tank combination. Quite the conundrum for Scott to decide which order of locomotives to produce.

 

As an SP fan, I can't wait for this highly anticipated model.

Originally Posted by ed new haven line:

I asked Scott to design these locomotives so that the battery is located just below the roof of the locomotive and have a removable hatch to access the battery without having to remove the body shell as with the other diesel models. Lionel and MTH have been doing this for several years now and of course MTH Proto 3 locomotives don't use a battery at all.

I always thought that the 9 Volt battery was only important for those folks using conventional. Operating with TMCC/Legacy the battery isn't needed.

True, generally speaking. However, there have been some posts by members who keep a battery in there to keep the sound from dropping out momentarily when the engine passes over a dead spot. Certain Legacy models will not restart the sound if it drops out and you have to restart the sound. This is true, for instance, of the Milwaukee Road S-3 Northern. It happened to me one time at the toy train museum when the track was dirty - the sound would drop out and I would have to stop the train and hit the startup button to get it going again. I believe this has been fixed on the latest Legacy installations. I still don't keep batteries in my TMCC/Legacy engines - I have too many to want to bother monitoring them all for leaking batteries. 
 
Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Originally Posted by ed new haven line:

I asked Scott to design these locomotives so that the battery is located just below the roof of the locomotive and have a removable hatch to access the battery without having to remove the body shell as with the other diesel models. Lionel and MTH have been doing this for several years now and of course MTH Proto 3 locomotives don't use a battery at all.

I always thought that the 9 Volt battery was only important for those folks using conventional. Operating with TMCC/Legacy the battery isn't needed.

 

Originally Posted by Forrest Jerome:

and now, my ignoramus question for the week.

 

i like diesels, but have always had my attention drawn to the cab units that fronted streamliners.

 

prior to this thread, i could not have told you what an SD7 or SD9 was or looked like.  why is there such excitement for these locos?

 

 

Well frankly, "excitement" doesn't fit me, at least.  for the Train of Tomorrow, yes, but for the SD7, just "mild enthusiasm."  For me, I  bought it and feel positive about it and look forward to getting it  because; 1) its a nice looking loco, b) it fits the timeline of my layout ('55) perfectly, c) it will be 3rd Rail - i.e., really good detail and quality, d) it will have sound, smoke, etc., etc., e) it will be UP - a railroad I model and finally, f) the cost seems very reasonable.   so . . . 

Originally Posted by Forrest Jerome:

and now, my ignoramus question for the week.

 

i like diesels, but have always had my attention drawn to the cab units that fronted streamliners.

 

prior to this thread, i could not have told you what an SD7 or SD9 was or looked like.  why is there such excitement for these locos?

 

 

Because there are folks here who do know the difference.

 

Rusty

For me the attraction is that I've always liked the utilitarian look of "hood units" like the early SD and GP diesel-electrics,  and between the SD7 and SD9 my favorite road (SP) had a pretty sizable fleet of them (43 SD7s and 150 SD9) that mostly saw use hauling heavy lumber trains between Northern California and Oregon.  They were nicknamed "Cadillacs" by a number of SP's crew members because of their smooth ride.

 

Of note is that after a major fleet rebuild (GRIP), two SD9s (#4450 nicknamed "Huff" and #4451 nicknamed "Puff") were reassigned from freight duty (exception of 4450 which was assigned to the snowfighting fleet on Donner pass at the time) to the San Francisco-San Jose commuter train, both of which I believe were the only SD9s that retained their steam generators after the fleet rebuilds.  They were known as the cleanest looking SD9s in SP's entire fleet (because of their commuter duties that kept them constantly in public view).  Unfortunately #4450 was scrapped in Portola back in August 2013 after it was determined the amount of rust cancer she had and other mechanical issues deemed her unsuitable for a rebuild, while I believe # 4451 still exists under ownership of the Northwestern Pacific railroad which she was sold to many years ago, although from what I understand she's still mothballed, sitting very neglected amongst several other derelicts, probably will face the same fate as #4450 if there's no attempts to preserve her.

CORRECTIONS INSERTED IN RED:

 

Great Input from all of you. Thank you.

Comparing the Dash 9 drive and our current system:

 

1. Dash 9 was produced in 2000, 15 years ago. It was our first diesel in O Scale in as many years.

2. We no longer use plastic U-Joints, they are now all metal, precision machined in Korea.

 

3. We no longer use Mabuchi ($1) motors, as in all "China Drives too." We use a very stout Canon FN38 motor. We noticed Lionel is now using the same motor in their Cab Forwards. It must be good, eh?

We will be using an 8000 series Pittman Motor in each SD7 and SD9. FN38s are too big.

 

4. We now employ 3D design for producing all the parts of our new projects. If you want more info on how this is done, email me.

 

5. We make these to scale, with fixed pilots, correct height profiles, scale size wheels, and all wheels powered, if the prototype had them, full cab interior detail since the motor and drive lays flat. This drive system is not new and not unique. It's been used for 30-40 years in 2 Rail. It's very quiet and smooth. A 2 motor system tends to have some push / pull at start up between the independently powered trucks. We actually start with 2 Rail design in mind and fit these with 3R Wheels and pickups.

 

6. We listen to our customers suggestions for improvements and use these inputs to detail these models per road name.

 

7. From the F7 forward we are using Ngineering Mars lights circuits in our 3 Rail models. This is a big improvement from our blinking LEDs. You can find Ngineering on the internet. A great source of model lighting and effect circuits.

 

8. Since these are scale models they won't run on 042 track. 054 is a hope, and usually they will run on 054 curves. But 072 is the minimum design requirement.

 

9. We build these to your reservations. If you don't reserve one through us or your dealer, you won't have a chance to buy one. We have to cut off reservations several months before entering production as we order sound systems and parts. Then the qty is fixed.

 

10. If we don't get at least 20 reservation for a given road, it won't be produced.

 

11. Keep your suggestion coming, we will make the models you want if there is enough interest.

 

Thanks Again for your support and advice,

 

Scott Mann - China

Last edited by sdmann

As to why this locomotive is generating so much interest....I can say this.  The prototype has a presence that few other EMDs, or any other Diesel can match.  It's just they way they were put together.  Remember: the SD7 was an "engineering study" according to some sources within EMD at that time.  This should be obvious when you compare the extra features and details built into the design compared to say, the GEEPs of the period. When the SD9 was brought out in 1954, one can see the effects of reducing those features to bring the amount of work required - and price - down.  The SD9 gave you some mechanical up-grades, but you lost some of the "gingerbread" of the earlier model.  My first up close encounter with the real deal was B&LE 454 in Erie back in he summer of '73.  All I can say is that this incredible machine had all the "grab" of any steamer I'd been exposed to up to that point, mebby more!  These early SDs and especially the "7" series just reek personality.  One look and you can just feel the paint being pulled off the wall !   The previous versions of this lokkie have all suffered one shortcoming or another.  Scott's has the potential to unleash the grit and punch of the real thing in model form. In short, my wallet could easily be in serious trouble !

Note copied from Scott post.

8. Since these are scale models they won't run on 042 track. 054 is a hope, and usually they will run on 054 curves. But 072 is the minimum design requirement.

I have two Atlas, early SD35, that should be about the same dimensions as these SD7/9 models. They klunk, and bang through O-54 switches, but they do operate.  Atlas supplied a blind axle with these models to help with tighter curves.  I installed the blind axles on one of the engines and really didn't see a difference. Re-installed the flanged axle and left operate as is.  Note that the Atlas models do not have fixed pilots, but do have articulated couplers.  Fixed pilots on SD7/9 models may make a difference as to how it operates.

Mike CT

Last edited by Mike CT

Even 072 curves with fixed pilots, 6 axle diesels are pushing the limits when you run a multiple unit consist. You will mostly likely have to modify the draft gear box to allow maximum coupler travel. The problem is always between the engines, as the coupler shank hits the side of the draft gear box, and the tension causes the engines to tilt and derail. Just a little bit of extra travel eliminates this problem.

 

In my O Scale Kadee Coupler video series (Part 3), I demonstrate exactly how to address that problem. I had to do this to all my MTH 6 axle engines because I run them as a 3 or 4 unit consist.

Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Originally Posted by Mike CT:

  Note that the Atlas models do not have fixed pilots, but do have articulated couplers.  Fixed pilots may make a big difference.

 

And there in lies the BIG DIFFERENCE! No swinging pilots and body mounted scale couplers will thus limit you to 072 curves, without a doubt.

Just so everyone understands what they are purchasing. It is a relatively small unit that is going to require some space to operate nicely. 

Just put my order in for 2 B&LE SD9's and 1 DMIR SD9.  Back in the day both railroads were owned by US Steel and occasionally motive power was swapped.  Bessemer acquired a number of SD9's from the Missabe.  I think the Missabe had a fleet of about 70 or 80 SD9's and the Bessemer about 30 or so.  Both roads had high hoods and low hoods(some were chopped down from high hoods).  Surprised there hasn't been much mention of the Missabe.  Would still like to see a low hood unit in B&LE,  Missabe,  & Union but I don't think there is much chance that will happen.

 

Nick

Scott,

 

What would be truly great is if you could offer these in a similar fashion that MTH does with much of their current Premier diesel offerings, specifically easily changeable wheels/axles so you can swap to either 2- or 3-rail wheels, interchange 3-rail couplers with 2-rail and vice-versa, and design them so that the engine itself can operate on either 2-rail or 3-rail track via a switch mounted on the underside or in a hidden compartment on the body.

Originally Posted by John Korling:

Scott,

 

What would be truly great is if you could offer these in a similar fashion that MTH does with much of their current Premier diesel offerings, specifically easily changeable wheels/axles so you can swap to either 2- or 3-rail wheels, interchange 3-rail couplers with 2-rail and vice-versa, and design them so that the engine itself can operate on either 2-rail or 3-rail track via a switch mounted on the underside or in a hidden compartment on the body.

Noooooo!!!!!! Don't do it!!!  Building to the lowest common denominator just creates a poor, compromised model.  The way Scott does it now is just fine.  Design it as a two rail model and adapt it for the three rail market.

 

Opinion.

 

Originally Posted by ecd15:
Originally Posted by John Korling:

Scott,

 

What would be truly great is if you could offer these in a similar fashion that MTH does with much of their current Premier diesel offerings, specifically easily changeable wheels/axles so you can swap to either 2- or 3-rail wheels, interchange 3-rail couplers with 2-rail and vice-versa, and design them so that the engine itself can operate on either 2-rail or 3-rail track via a switch mounted on the underside or in a hidden compartment on the body.

Noooooo!!!!!! Don't do it!!!  Building to the lowest common denominator just creates a poor, compromised model.  The way Scott does it now is just fine.  Design it as a two rail model and adapt it for the three rail market.

 

Opinion.

 

Works for me.

Two rail is the way to go...absolutely !    And for you prototype fans, You'll want to get a copy of Diesel Era's Nov./Dec. '95 issue on the the SD7.  Loads of great photos, including all the Espee versions in their various paint jobs....passenger service too.  They also did a two issue series on the SD9, although mine is buried right now, and I can't tell yunz the exact date.  IIRC, it was not long after the SD7 issue.   Best of success to you, Scott, on this magnificent project.   Can't wait to put to put one (or more) of these beasties to work with ridiculous tonnage on an impossible grade! Huzzah !

Originally Posted by sdmann:

What will be nice is we can support modified parts post production, i.e. 2R pilots for 3R customers, where the opening for the coupler is reduced for a more scale appearance.

 

It's all to make things look and run better.

 

Scott

Yes it does!

 

IMG_0326

the 3R model out of the box on the bottom, and Kadee mounted with the 3R pilot on top

 

 

20141124_174500

Scott offers the 2R pilots so we 3 railers can have that same look as the 2R models.

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For anyone who not experienced the fine qualities of the current production of 3rd Rail diesels, you will be pleasantly surprised.  I have been pleased with each successive generation of the 3rd Rail diesels and have at least one example of the E7, FL9, FP7 and FT.  The F7 is looking to be another fine project as well.  The growth of this product line has been a steady progression of quality and I am very excited for the SD7/SD9 project. 

 

As with all 3rd Rail diesels, customizations made by the various railroads will be added to the maximum extent possible.  Not only will these be the best looking and most accurate plastic diesels in the 3 rail market, they will be among the best running.  Road names will likely change based on orders.  As Scott has already mentioned, 20 orders is all it takes to have a road name or specific paint scheme go.  My guess is that on the SP models in particular, all three of the schemes will run.  This is going to be a fun project

Last edited by GG1 4877
Originally Posted by ecd15:
Originally Posted by John Korling:

Scott,

 

What would be truly great is if you could offer these in a similar fashion that MTH does with much of their current Premier diesel offerings, specifically easily changeable wheels/axles so you can swap to either 2- or 3-rail wheels, interchange 3-rail couplers with 2-rail and vice-versa, and design them so that the engine itself can operate on either 2-rail or 3-rail track via a switch mounted on the underside or in a hidden compartment on the body.

Noooooo!!!!!! Don't do it!!!  Building to the lowest common denominator just creates a poor, compromised model.  The way Scott does it now is just fine.  Design it as a two rail model and adapt it for the three rail market.

 

Opinion.

 

 

 

I'm sure that the ability to swap out axles wouldn't hideously compromise those concerns of yours, and also factoring in 3rd Rail's own standards.

 

In other words, I'm sure they could make it work and not make the overall appearance *******ized in the process. 

 

And BTW, some of the scale wheels versions of MTH's diesels with Kadee couplers installed actually hold up very well against 2 rail versions.

I have been operating my 3rd Rail FL9s and FP7s on 048 Lionel Fast Track curves pulling 18 inch passenger cars and they all make it around the curves fine so I would expect that the SD7s and SD9s to do the same. I have also operated locomotives from MTH on these curves that are listed as 054 minimum curves. Even one that says on the flap of the box minimum curve 072 runs fine on the 048 curves.

Originally Posted by ed new haven line:

I have been operating my 3rd Rail FL9s and FP7s on 048 Lionel Fast Track curves pulling 18 inch passenger cars and they all make it around the curves fine so I would expect that the SD7s and SD9s to do the same. I have also operated locomotives from MTH on these curves that are listed as 054 minimum curves. Even one that says on the flap of the box minimum curve 072 runs fine on the 048 curves.

But,,,,,you are comparing 2-axle truck units. The SD7/SD9 units have 3-axle trucks with all wheels flanged, plus their overall length is longer than even your FL9 unit.

Originally Posted by falconservice:

The 3rd Rail SD7/SD9 is to be made for both 3-Rail and 2-Rail, but nobody mentions this on the 3-rail Scale forum and the 2-rail forum.

 

You have to go back to February, when it was pretty well discussed on the 3-Rail SCALE Forum. I'm also pretty sure the 2-Rail SCALE folks discussed the models on the 2-Rail SCALE Forum, back then.

 

Reservations were still being accepted for the SD7s and SD9s. You might need to post an official announcement on all the O Gauge and O Scale forums so that the reservations will be filled.

 

Please eMail Scott Mann at Sunset/3rd Rail directly about your suggestion.

 

Andrew 

 

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