New ZW-L

I was told it is awaiting UL approval. Go figure. Which ever it is it looks pretty impressive.

The ZW-L is very impressive, the handles feel great except for the horn/reverse levers which seem really flimsy. Ihope they fix those.

I thought the same thing Chris. The whistle-horn/reverse and bell buttons did not have a good feel. I was expecting the whistle lever to be like a legacy control, and it didn't even have the resistance of an old ZW. Perhaps this was just an early prototype?

Skip

Hope to see you there today! I would agree with yours and Chris's assessment of the controls. Hopefully the bell horn switch are beefed up. They may be perfectly fine mechanically but they give the feeling of not being so sturdy.

But I have to tell you I really like the feel of the rest of it.

This is surprising, since they had an operating example there in the spring. (I know, they let me play with it )

I think what is happening is timing is delayed because tool shops (especially in the states have disappeared). Raw materials such as tool steel is at a premium right now.
The ZWL will be out, just much later than expected

quote:

Originally posted by CarGuyZM10:
This is surprising, since they had an operating example there in the spring. (I know, they let me play with it )

Maybe you broke it.

Ok...Good news! I got a different story today from a different Lionel employee. It is pending UL approval and there is a possibility, if no changes need to be made, that the ZW will be out by December. If not early next year.

That's a better answer than "not anytime soon!"

Now let's see who the real "trusted" Lionel employee turns out to be!

quote:

Originally posted by breezinup:

quote:

Originally posted by CarGuyZM10:
This is surprising, since they had an operating example there in the spring. (I know, they let me play with it )

Maybe you broke it.

Maybe. It would be far from the first train I broke

Humor me please and explain the ZW-L. I thought Lionel had released a ZW with external power bricks 2-3 years ago. Or is this the one they had been talking about then, that is finally hitting the market???

quote:

Originally posted by rrman:
Humor me please and explain the ZW-L. I thought Lionel had released a ZW with external power bricks 2-3 years ago. Or is this the one they had been talking about then, that is finally hitting the market???

The ZW-L is a self-contained 720-watt unit with no external bricks. It's intended to replace the "new" ZW.

Thanks Mike. Wow 700 watts, ought to power anything you can throw at it. Hopefully has fast acting electronic breakers built in.

Curious what price is. Course if you have to ask, probably can't afford it!

quote:

Originally posted by rrman:
Thanks Mike. Wow 700 watts, ought to power anything you can throw at it. Hopefully has fast acting electronic breakers built in.

Curious what price is. Course if you have to ask, probably can't afford it!

MSRP $799.99

http://www.lionel.com/Products...ilLineID=&CatalogId=

quote:

Originally posted by rrman:
Thanks Mike. Wow 700 watts, ought to power anything you can throw at it. Hopefully has fast acting electronic breakers built in.

Curious what price is. Course if you have to ask, probably can't afford it!

I'm just hoping they made the circuit board more robust than the ZW with the power packs. I'm almost afraid to power mine up for fear it'll eat an impossible to find circuit board!

I hope you can run 4 main lines, like I do with the current ZW with 4 bricks.
It will take up less room because you don't have the bricks, that will be nice.

quote:

Originally posted by bluestrain:
I hope you can run 4 main lines, like I do with the current ZW with 4 bricks.
It will take up less room because you don't have the bricks, that will be nice.

With 700W to work with, I don't think you have to worry

QUOTE] Voltage and current from each of the four channels of the ZW-L Transformer are cleanly displayed in four easy-to-read, analog ammeter/voltmeter dials that are housed in the “dashboard” face. [/QUOTE]

How do they display 8 quantities on 4 meters? Are they dual-needle meters?

Dale, from what the guy from Lionel said at York in April at the toy train museum, they are not dual-needle. He indicated that a pair (one amp and one volt meter) would display the amps and volts for one channel on the given side. If you wanted to see what the values were for the other channel on that given side, you had to physically move the throttle for that channel to make the transformer change over to display those values. The same went for the other two meters and the other two channels on the other side. Whether or not this has changed, I do not know.

In normal operating the meters are reading the A and D handles (the 2 large outside handles), to read the inner B and C dials all one has to do is touch those tabs on the handles and the meter will change to show those readings.

quote:

Originally posted by MartyE:
In normal operating the meters are reading the A and D handles (the 2 large outside handles), to read the inner B and C dials all one has to do is touch those tabs on the handles and the meter will change to show those readings.

Now thats clever thinking "outside the box". Only problem I have with this transformer aside from cost, is assurance that repair parts are available 20+ years down the road. I still use my boyhood ZW on my current layout and aside from replacing the rollers, it still going like the pink Energizer rabbit (although now the handles are set to 18V for my DCS system). Not taking any thing away from ZW-L, can Lionel guarantee that lifetime of replacement boards/parts for the ZW-L? Wow, silence is deafening.

Sam, that's my concern! Given the issues people are having with the previous electronic ZW controller one has to wonder how much more robust they made this one.

quote:

I still use my boyhood ZW on my current layout and aside from replacing the rollers, it still going like the pink Energizer rabbit (although now the handles are set to 18V for my DCS system). Not taking any thing away from ZW-L, can Lionel guarantee that lifetime of replacement boards/parts for the ZW-L? Wow, silence is deafening.

While I agree with the basic premise of having repair parts, your analogy is a little off. All I can suggest to you is to continue to use your old ZW.

Can Apple, Microsoft or any other manufacturer guarantee life time replacements parts? Simply put no. They come out replacement computers every year.

Parts have been an issue for all the train companies willing to use technology to enhance the enjoyment of our trains but for some reason most folks are not tolerant to them as companies that make computers, LCDs, and other electronic toys that die and have to be replaced.

New technology changes almost monthly. Much quicker than in the 50s.

Lionel must do a better job at keeping an ample supply of parts on hand, but lifetime? Ain't goin' to happen. Another new ZW will be out before then.

I just saw one of these in a catalog and I can definitely say that while I want one really bad, I just cannot afford $800 on on piece of train stuff. This hobby is really expensive. I wish I could pay the 1960 prices for some of these things

quote:

I wish I could pay the 1960 prices for some of these things Smile

That transformer would cost about $109 in 1960. The average 1 income salary in 1960 was approx $24K.

quote:

I just saw one of these in a catalog and I can definitely say that while I want one really bad, I just cannot afford $800 on on piece of train stuff. This hobby is really expensive. I wish I could pay the 1960 prices for some of these things Smile

I suppose if you and everyone else would be willing to work for 1960s pay rates, then we could buy things at 1960s prices!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave0462:

quote:

I just saw one of these in a catalog and I can definitely say that while I want one really bad, I just cannot afford $800 on on piece of train stuff. This hobby is really expensive. I wish I could pay the 1960 prices for some of these things Smile

I suppose if you and everyone else would be willing to work for 1960s pay rates, then we could buy things at 1960s prices!

I wish I could pay 1960 prices for a corvette instead of whatever Marty spent on his.

quote:

The average 1 income salary in 1960 was approx $24K.

That doesn't sound right. When I graduated from college in 1965, I got one of the top job EE offers at $8400/year. I don't think the average salary was more that 3 times this amount.

For the decade of 1960-1969 from the Internet (probably for 1960):
National Debt 286.3 Billion
Average Salary $4,743
Teacher's Salary $5,174
Minimum Wage $1.00

I only bring home a little more than that $24,000 now anyhow so not really much difference.

quote:

Originally posted by Dale Manquen:

quote:

The average 1 income salary in 1960 was approx $24K.

That doesn't sound right. When I graduated from college in 1965, I got one of the top job EE offers at $8400/year. I don't think the average salary was more that 3 times this amount.

For the decade of 1960-1969 from the Internet (probably for 1960):
National Debt 286.3 Billion
Average Salary $4,743
Teacher's Salary $5,174
Minimum Wage $1.00

Dale is right on, 24k as an average salary is way, way too high for the early 1960's, that would probably be true in the early 70's or so (the 24k figure could be someone translating a 1960's salary into a later time period), I would guess that the mythical average salary back then was probably 8k or so. To give you an idea, the average salary today is around 44k or so, and an engineer coming out of school will prob get a bit less then that, depending on where they work and so forth). I know when my dad went to work as an EE in the mid 60's, his salary was around that range...and that is a white collar position.

As far as parts for the trains and such go, it is a little bit different then buying a computer. For one thing, computers if you look at their functionality and what they can do, are a lot cheaper then a transformer. When you are shelling out 800 bucks for a transformer that does basically one thing, you expect it to last longer as a single purpose device.

The other difference with computers is they have large elements that are open source. If you hard drive crashes, you can easily put in a new one and if you have a backup you can restore the system. If the monitor goes, it can be replaced or upgraded, if you need more memory or a memory chip goes you can replace that. Even with the mac, notorious for being a closed box, common items can be replaced. And because computers are more about software then hardware, you are protected, because chances are what you are running will work on the new machine as well as the old, or you can get an inexpensive upgrade that will work....

I do think it is a bit unfair to compare a post war ZW (which I love, have one myself) to a modern unit, it is like saying a modern car has nothing on the 1954 Chevy you could fix with a screwdriver and a wrench, comparing apples to pears (it also leaves out that a modern car requires 1/1000th the work that chevy did). Mechanical units can be fixed, even without a lot of skills, and because of the popularity of the PW stuff parts are available and that is part of the charm...

My problem with the new ZW's and a lot of the modern stuff seems to be that they aren't particularly reliable in the short term, and that parts are scarce from the day they are introduced, and on that grounds the posters may have something. If these units were built bullet proof, if they used components designed not to fail, kind of like western electric used to do with phones, then it wouldn't be an issue, since few repairs would need to be made. If a computer fails, for example, it is really easy to find parts to repair it and the cost is nominal in most cases; if a 1500 buck engine fails, even if under warranty, it sounds from what I hear that it is often a nightmare to get it fixed. If I spend 600 bucks on a transformer and two years down the road, after the warranty expires, it needs repair and a)if they have the parts it is going to cost me several hundred dollars or b)they can't even get the parts, then I have a 600 dollar paper weight. If I buy a computer for 500 bucks, chances are I can fix what breaks for a nominal cost, and if I can't, chances are I can replace it for not all that much (and odds are it will last me a good number of years). A lot of this is the hassle figure, if I buy something then spend a lot of time repairing it or trying to have it repaired...

The problem with the new ZW-L is in some ways, it is doing exactly the same thing the 1950's one is (if I understand it correctly), it is basically a conventional transformer that has better power output and I am sure protection in it and so forth...but is it worth spending almost 700 bucks on something that could die in the next 4 or 5 years (and here I am assuming it has the same quality problems other modern stuff seems to) that will have trouble being repaired considering the track record with parts I am hearing, then buying something older that can probably work for the next 50 years with minimal repair work? It isn't even like comparing a 1950's car to a modern car, because with the car I know that in the timeframe I am likely to use it, maybe 10-15 years, parts will be available, and the modern car offers a million reasons not to drive the 1950's one; whereas the modern ZW-L, while offering significant power output and probably protection, doesn't offer that much over the older ZW's...so for many, it may not be worth the cost and the risk of the company saying "sorry, parts not available"....and given the size of the toy train market, not likely to be significant market in repair parts there (and not likely because Lionel et al won't allow that to happen with proprietary stuff).

Given the size of the market and the way they do things, I doubt very much that the PW-L will be much different then what we hear of modern stuff in general....though also keep in mind that the control circuitry for something like this is not going to be as complicated as an engine, for example, since de facto it is mimicking a 1950's PW, takes 110vac and turns it into variable output AC, so it may be more reliable then you would think. I would worry about the mechanical things, the buttons and such, and the handles and contacts, if they are made cheaply they are prob more likely to go then circuit boards.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MartyE:
While I agree with the basic premise of having repair parts, your analogy is a little off. All I can suggest to you is to continue to use your old ZW.

Can Apple, Microsoft or any other manufacturer guarantee life time replacements parts? Simply put no. They come out replacement computers every year.
QUOTE]

I must respectfully disagree. If you bought an MTH or Lionel engine, if the electronics goes out and there is no replacement, you might be able to get upgrade boards, convert to DCC, or worst case, rip out the electronics add a rectifier bridge and run conventional. Ditto if the can motor died, you probably could find a drop-in replacement or could fit with some modification. But you would still have a runnable engine, especially if your favorite road or is a collectiable.

Computers, TVs etc seem to be non-repairable now a day. Yes, you can replace mother boards. However the difference here is, the train is something that we use and interact as end product that gives us pleasure and satisfaction of in itself, wereas a TV or computers etc provide a service, if you will (you watch programs or surf the net and are not overly concerned how it happens or the method.) When monitor fails, get a new one, CPU tower fails, get new one (Dell, HP, ACER,brand X all the same guts), tranfer files and you're back in business.

On other hand you are not as likely to throw away that engine or cars if they break as they represent something, and not easily replaceable as say the TV.

My two cents, and please read this for what I am saying and not degress into quibbling over makes, models, repairability etc.

quote:

Originally posted by MartyE:
While I agree with the basic premise of having repair parts, your analogy is a little off. All I can suggest to you is to continue to use your old ZW.

Can Apple, Microsoft or any other manufacturer guarantee life time replacements parts? Simply put no. They come out replacement computers every year.

I must respectfully disagree. If you bought an MTH or Lionel engine, if the electronics goes out and there is no replacement, you might be able to get upgrade boards, convert to DCC, or worst case, rip out the electronics add a rectifier bridge and run conventional. Ditto if the can motor died, you probably could find a drop-in replacement or could fit with some modification. But you would still have a runnable engine, especially if your favorite road or is a collectiable.

Computers, TVs etc seem to be non-repairable now a day. Yes, you can replace mother boards. However the difference here is, the train is something that we use and interact as end product that gives us pleasure and satisfaction of in itself, wereas a TV or computers etc provide a service, if you will (you watch programs or surf the net and are not overly concerned how it happens or the method.) When monitor fails, get a new one, CPU tower fails, get new one (Dell, HP, ACER,brand X all the same guts), tranfer files and you're back in business.

On other hand you are not as likely to throw away that engine or cars if they break as they represent something, and not easily replaceable as say the TV.

My two cents, and please read this for what I am saying and not degress into quibbling over makes, models, repairability etc.

quote:

Originally posted by rrman:

quote:

Originally posted by MartyE:
While I agree with the basic premise of having repair parts, your analogy is a little off. All I can suggest to you is to continue to use your old ZW.

Can Apple, Microsoft or any other manufacturer guarantee life time replacements parts? Simply put no. They come out replacement computers every year.

I must respectfully disagree. If you bought an MTH or Lionel engine, if the electronics goes out and there is no replacement, you might be able to get upgrade boards, convert to DCC, or worst case, rip out the electronics add a rectifier bridge and run conventional. Ditto if the can motor died, you probably could find a drop-in replacement or could fit with some modification. But you would still have a runnable engine, especially if your favorite road or is a collectiable.

Computers, TVs etc seem to be non-repairable now a day. Yes, you can replace mother boards. However the difference here is, the train is something that we use and interact as end product that gives us pleasure and satisfaction of in itself, wereas a TV or computers etc provide a service, if you will (you watch programs or surf the net and are not overly concerned how it happens or the method.) When monitor fails, get a new one, CPU tower fails, get new one (Dell, HP, ACER,brand X all the same guts), tranfer files and you're back in business.

On other hand you are not as likely to throw away that engine or cars if they break as they represent something, and not easily replaceable as say the TV.

And so the ZW-L if its board breaks, how likely will there be microprocessor board available to keep that $800 unit running? Some basic items I feel need to be kept simple such as transformers especially if used just to power DCS or TMCC systems. Conventional runners will disagree on this point. And of course to shoot a hole in my own argument, will my DCS system be servicable 20 years from now. Probably not.

My two cents, and please read this for what I am saying and not degress into quibbling over makes, models, repairability etc.

Really don't want to get into it this way, but facts are facts. I am only a small sample, but I have 3 Z4000's. No failures.

I have 2 post-war ZW's (rewired). No failures.

I have 2 modern Lionel ZW's. 2 failures. Repaired out of warranty, last one a couple of months ago. Aside from the fact that I obviously don't need a ZW-L, the confidence factor just isn't there.

Gerry

6 postwar ZW's

problems encountered since 1964

6 new cords
2 new circuit breakers(replaced 2 in latter ZWs)
4 new recifier disc
3 binding posts
some rollers

That's it! total issues in 47 years!

Scott R. Conforto

Any ZW-L updates? Will it be at the dealers before Christmas?

dennis32,

The Lionel website say a release of June 2012.

Does the ZWL have a motherboard in it?

Is it the same motherboard as in the New ZW?

Are they interchangeable?

And why aren't boards available for the New ZW?

Btw, nobody but nobody here expects Lionel to make boards available for ANYTHING permanently. But we are reasonably entitled to have replacement parts longer than the brief period of time the so-called New ZW was on the market.

P.S. - Dale and bigkid, you're absolutely right. $24K was definitely no average income in 1960. I was there.

P.S. #2 - there was also a real lengthy delay on the New ZW. Mine took a couple of years. That was late '90s, and it was the ZWC, the earliest variant of that unit. It came with a written Lifetime Warranty. The later model came with a Limited Warranty.

quote:

Originally posted by bigkid:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dale Manquen:
[QUOTE] The average 1 income salary in 1960 was approx $24K.

The average (median) money income or families in the. United States was $5600 in 1960, according to estimates ...by the Bureau of the Census

I'm wondering if the 700W exceeds what UL is willing to list.